[Chris Mak]

It's much easier to do with mirrorless, I'm afraid. Oversimplifying a bot, it's "hey, Sony, we want this" - and a stash of money (which Fujifilm has, from the Instax).

Pentax OTOH would have to design a dramatically more complex AF system, and also to get around the issue of the reflex system limiting the AF area coverage. With lower resources.
I'll reward a significant improvement with my money, by the way.

True in every way. Pentax cannot help mirrorless coming along and having its inherent benefits.
But on the other hand, Safox 10 was introduced in the K5 in september 2010, Safox 11 was introduced in the K3 october 2013. I would have liked Safox 13 (Safox 12 being a FF rework of Safox 11) in 2018. How hard is it to upgrade, nót to D500 level, but simply to a 51 points AF module with an improved coverage? Is 5 years not enough, ór has Pentax moved AF down its priority list to close the gate?

Chris

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Last edited by Chris Mak; 02-15-2018 at 02:54 PM.

[robjmitchell]

True in every way. Pentax cannot help mirrorless coming along and having its inherent benefits.
But on the other hand, Safox 10 was introduced in the K5 in september 2010, Safox 11 was introduced in the K3 october 2013. I would have liked Safox 13 (Safox 12 being a FF rework of Safox 11) in 2018. How hard is it to upgrade, nót to D500 level, but simply to a 51 points AF module with an improved coverage? Is 5 years not enough, ór has Pentax moved AF down its priority list to close the gate?

Chris

How much is algorithm and how much is motors. Ricoh has invested in developing an ultrasonic ring motor for the DFA*50 so that means they are serious about improving AF.

[wkraus]

How hard is it to upgrade, nót to D500 level, but simply to a 51 points AF module with an improved coverage? Is 5 years not enough, ór has Pentax moved AF down its priority list to close the gate?

Wót's wróng with yóur ó's?

[Chris Mak]

Wót's wróng with yóur ó's?

I don't know, they must have caught it somewhere and it stuck...

[Reed]

True in every way. Pentax cannot help mirrorless coming along and having its inherent benefits.
But on the other hand, Safox 10 was introduced in the K5 in september 2010, Safox 11 was introduced in the K3 october 2013. I would have liked Safox 13 (Safox 12 being a FF rework of Safox 11) in 2018. How hard is it to upgrade, nót to D500 level, but simply to a 51 points AF module with an improved coverage? Is 5 years not enough, ór has Pentax moved AF down its priority list to close the gate?

Chris

Actually, quite a bit. Becouse simplest and most straightforward solutions to do that are already patented by Nikon. Also, improving autofocus is not even close to changing camera sensor, it brings many more problems such as creating new AF sensor, new algorithm, software, solving backward compatibility issues etc. AF tech is in house development, not licensed as is buying a ready to use image sensor from Sony along with dev-kit.

[Kunzite]

@Chris Mak:
Since I'm not working in this field, I cannot say how hard it is. From my experience, what some people would call simple issues can be very difficult to solve.
The SAFOX 11 is their first attempt of an AF with advanced subject recognition and tracking functions. And it's still glitchy. Would they first solve those issues, or have the confidence to jump to a completely new module - I have no idea. Would we get some hints about the future at CP+, I have no idea.

What I do know - what you also know - is that they're sorting out the lens side, with the new motors. They are properly recognizing this issue.

[Chris Mak]

Actually, quite a bit. Becouse simplest and most straightforward solutions to do that are already patented by Nikon. Also, improving autofocus is not even close to changing camera sensor, it brings many more problems such as creating new AF sensor, new algorithm, software, solving backward compatibility issues etc. AF tech is in house development, not licensed as is buying a ready to use image sensor from Sony along with dev-kit.

5 years is a very long time. A lot of (even difficult) progress is possible in 5 years.
But let's assume that you are right, and it is truly beyond the capabilities of the Pentax engineers to step up to a +/- 50 points AF module with decent coverage in 5 years development time, then the very simple conclusion is, that Pentax will have to migrate to, or expand to, a mirrorless system like Olympus, Sony and Fuji, with a hybrid on-sensor pd-af and c-af system. They seem to have no problem whatsoever to make great strides on AF level in a 5 year period.
Alternatively, Pentax will have to settle with a position as the odd one out.

Chris

[BigMackCam]

Alternatively, Pentax will have to settle with a position as the odd one out.

That may well be the case. Arguably, it has been the odd one out (or "niche player") for most of the digital photography years, yet it's maintained a loyal following and apparently grown that following slowly but surely. And perhaps that's enough? Not for everyone, clearly... but enough to maintain a viable market.

[reh321]

5 years is a very long time. A lot of (even difficult) progress is possible in 5 years.
But let's assume that you are right, and it is truly beyond the capabilities of the Pentax engineers to step up to a +/- 50 points AF module with decent coverage in 5 years development time, then the very simple conclusion is, that Pentax will have to migrate to, or expand to, a mirrorless system like Olympus, Sony and Fuji, with a hybrid on-sensor pd-af and c-af system. They seem to have no problem whatsoever to make great strides on AF level in a 5 year period.
Alternatively, Pentax will have to settle with a position as the odd one out.

Chris

We've heard a lot in this thread about Fuji, etc, but very little about Pentax, especially not KAF4. Do you have actual experience with this equipment? When I get a new camera, the next thing I do will be to purchase a KAF4 lens.

[surfar]

Pentax will have to settle with a position as the odd one out.

They already have that position!

[Chris Mak]

We've heard a lot in this thread about Fuji, etc, but very little about Pentax, especially not KAF4. Do you have actual experience with this equipment? When I get a new camera, the next thing I do will be to purchase a KAF4 lens.

It's good to see the possibilities for the new lenses. For sure, the AF behavior can be greatly enhanced by new, high precision lens motors. I have not used a new plm lens myself, but don't doubt it's a big step up, and so will the ring motors be.
There is however a large existing lens collection. This lens collection depends on the camera body, it's the only variable: you cannot change its built in motor.
Better precision and responsiveness for these lenses will have to come, within the limits these lenses pose, from upgraded camera bodies. To get a bit of an image as to what extent auto focus can be improved with the same lens on a new body, read e.g. about Sony's achievements with the A9 and A7RIII bodies

[reh321]

read e.g. about Sony's achievements with the A9 and A7RIII bodies

Yes, I have said many times that 20 years ago Canon lenses were superior to Pentax lenses, so why don't you stop posting here and go accumulate a bunch of five-year-old Sony lenses.

[robjmitchell]

It's good to see the possibilities for the new lenses. For sure, the AF behavior can be greatly enhanced by new, high precision lens motors. I have not used a new plm lens myself, but don't doubt it's a big step up, and so will the ring motors be.
There is however a large existing lens collection. This lens collection depends on the camera body, it's the only variable: you cannot change its built in motor.
Better precision and responsiveness for these lenses will have to come, within the limits these lenses pose, from upgraded camera bodies. To get a bit of an image as to what extent auto focus can be improved with the same lens on a new body, read e.g. about Sony's achievements with the A9 and A7RIII bodies

Everyone would agree that ring motor upgrades to the Da* lenses and refreshes to the FA limiteds would be welcome. First I'd like them to bring the Dfa* lenses to the market. Them + ibis + k1ii with accelerator leaves cannon and nikon for dead IQ wise. If pentax had good AF-C and an extensive lens range they would be unbeatable with the rest of their features.

[totsmuyco]

Everyone would agree that ring motor upgrades to the Da* lenses and refreshes to the FA limiteds would be welcome. First I'd like them to bring the Dfa* lenses to the market. Them + ibis + k1ii with accelerator leaves cannon and nikon for dead IQ wise. If pentax had good AF-C and an extensive lens range they would be unbeatable with the rest of their features.

I totally agree with you. Pentax needs to refresh their lens line up and provide better AFC to newer models. Yes with better AFC and more lenses they can bring in new users particularly those who would like to have a second system. However, does Ricoh have the capacity to refresh their lens line up? This would involve money and physical plant capacity. Another question would be is, how much revenues will refreshing lens line up and providing better AFC bring? No matter what they show in their financial statements, it is only Ricoh who knows if they can give us what we are asking. I too would love to see new lenses and better AFC in the future. I really hope they can. I would like Pentax to be the last camera system that I will use till I die.

[mecrox]

Everyone would agree that ring motor upgrades to the Da* lenses and refreshes to the FA limiteds would be welcome. First I'd like them to bring the Dfa* lenses to the market. Them + ibis + k1ii with accelerator leaves cannon and nikon for dead IQ wise. If pentax had good AF-C and an extensive lens range they would be unbeatable with the rest of their features.

I’d guess that the growth of mirrorless will make APS-C on DSLR increasingly difficult financially for a smaller player and even more tricky financially for those revised screwdrive lenses you mention. One can see why Ricoh are looking harder at FF these days where this does not apply to anything like the same extent, or not yet. I doubt there is time, now, for a multi-year lens refresh on APS-C. The period needed to recoup the capital outlay of revising all the DA Limited lenses, say, just isn't likely to be there. Maybe better to earmark the money for a new mount come mirrorless option or accept a rundown towards much more modest sales on crop DSLRs. The way the market is changing must all be a very difficult challenge for Ricoh’s financial planners. I would expect a basic set of new or improved zooms on APS-C K-mount, like the recently announced 11-18mm or the not-so-old 16-85mm, but not a flush of modern crop-format primes for the K mount. New primes would have to share with the FF venture. We'll see.