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08-28-2018, 02:50 AM   #856
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QuoteOriginally posted by Larrymc Quote
Well I've used both and the OVF is better IMHO granted you can project, for instance, the Histogram on the EVF as well as the blinkies but if you know your camera those are merely distractions when shooting. Neat electronic gadgetry but not useful to capture a photo to my liking IMHO!
IMHO a super (and "killer") feature to have on a future K-3 III would be a sort of Hybrid OVF a la Fuji X100F.
For those who have tried it, I am sure they will agree... for the others: image an OVF but with a little display (let's say 25% of the total dimension) on the bottom right side...
and you can activate this little window to see in real time what you want: histogram, focus peaking, zebra lines or just the magnified portion around your focus point.
Now, on a mirrorless like X100F it's easy... no mirror in front of the sensor. But put that feature in a K-3... with the amazing OVF that Pentax already offer... for me = simply perfection.

(optimal use = correct focus confirmation when you are in AF... like a "manual Eye-AF"... or an amazing help with manual focusing!)

08-28-2018, 03:15 AM - 1 Like   #857
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@rognone can't see how much of that could be possible - (as you mention) while you look through the OVF, the sensor is covered by the mirror and shutter:
QuoteOriginally posted by rognone Quote
...see in real time what you want: histogram, focus peaking, zebra lines or just the magnified portion around your focus point. ...
all of that requires live view. Option of live view through the OVF - now that would be different, and give best of both worlds...
08-28-2018, 05:26 AM   #858
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
I've yet to find an EVF that does not hurt my eyes after some minutes. Nothing beats a clear, bright optical viewfinder. I'm not even going to try to be humble about it, sorry!
"Some minutes" .... this may be a difference here. I don't raise the camera to my eye until I am ready to take the picture - I do all the advance planning without the camera; only after I've chosen perspective and rough framing, do I raise the camera, chose focal length, focus, meter, and shoot - typically in 30 seconds or less. I've never taken more than 50 unique photos in one day, so there is a limit to how much time I would spend peering through the viewfinder. From observation, I am guessing that most people are like me ..... certainly enough to account for MILC sales.
08-28-2018, 05:30 AM   #859
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
...I'm guessing that Sony sells more EVF-equipped cameras than Pentax sells OVF-equipped cameras.
This does not necessarily mean that the EVF is the primary reason for the difference in popularity. It could be because of reduced size and weight. It could be due to available lens selection. It could be because it's Sony. Or because the Sony is more readily available, or promoted by sale people, etc, etc.

08-28-2018, 05:37 AM - 1 Like   #860
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QuoteOriginally posted by bxf Quote
This does not necessarily mean that the EVF is the primary reason for the difference in popularity. It could be because of reduced size and weight. It could be due to available lens selection. It could be because it's Sony. Or because the Sony is more readily available, or promoted by sale people, etc, etc.
If you've seen the EVF fanboys, there can be no doubt that having EVF is a big part of the appeal. Even if it's not all of it.
08-28-2018, 06:57 AM   #861
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mark Ransom Quote
If you've seen the EVF fanboys, there can be no doubt that having EVF is a big part of the appeal. Even if it's not all of it.
Well, once you remove OVF, it's clear that EVF is of prime importance. I'll be the first to state that it is missing on the GR.
It has nothing to do with being better than OVF though.
08-28-2018, 07:30 AM - 4 Likes   #862
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Well, once you remove OVF, it's clear that EVF is of prime importance. I'll be the first to state that it is missing on the GR.
It has nothing to do with being better than OVF though.
There are people who believe that EVF is the future of cameras, and anybody holding out for OVF must be some kind of dinosaur because they're inferior. I honestly don't understand those people, but they're out there.

08-28-2018, 08:27 AM - 1 Like   #863
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mark Ransom Quote
There are people who believe that EVF is the future of cameras, and anybody holding out for OVF must be some kind of dinosaur because they're inferior. I honestly don't understand those people, but they're out there.
I think that the industry will transition to EVF, but there is nothing wrong with preferring an OVF. I think everyone should learn to be ok with the fact that we all have our preferences.
08-28-2018, 08:30 AM   #864
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There's a lot of photographic jewelry around, as ever - I think that anybody who's image conscious actually needs an EVF right now - that doesn't make them bador good, just fashionable - a bit like you have to be ready to endure comments if you sport a Pentax - it's probably a bit like that for all but the most serious looking DSLRs some places.
08-28-2018, 09:17 AM   #865
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mark Ransom Quote
There are people who believe that EVF is the future of cameras, and anybody holding out for OVF must be some kind of dinosaur because they're inferior. I honestly don't understand those people, but they're out there.
Being primarily an OVF user, now that I have an EVF camera as well, I see that I try to use it like i'm using an OVF and miss out a lot of the features that the camera itself offers because it is EVF. And so I'm trying to learn how to use EVF and if you use it in a different way as opposed to just trying to use it like you use a OVF camera, you might actually end up liking a lot of the features that it offers. But If you try to use it as an OVF or never have used an EVF, then I would say that criticizing EVF is not right because you haven't used it the right way.
08-28-2018, 09:22 AM - 1 Like   #866
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QuoteOriginally posted by rognone Quote
IMHO a super (and "killer") feature to have on a future K-3 III would be a sort of Hybrid OVF a la Fuji X100F.
For those who have tried it, I am sure they will agree... for the others: image an OVF but with a little display (let's say 25% of the total dimension) on the bottom right side...
and you can activate this little window to see in real time what you want: histogram, focus peaking, zebra lines or just the magnified portion around your focus point.
Now, on a mirrorless like X100F it's easy... no mirror in front of the sensor. But put that feature in a K-3... with the amazing OVF that Pentax already offer... for me = simply perfection.

(optimal use = correct focus confirmation when you are in AF... like a "manual Eye-AF"... or an amazing help with manual focusing!)
A hybrid OVF/EVF a la X100 series of Fujifilm cameras is "easy" to do on a rangefinder camera because the EVF is just a mirrorless EVF and the OVF is a normal rangefinder OVF (with some electronic information overexposed, if you like, like the mimicking of the rangefinder patch, or a full blown out OVF). I love it on my X100s (no rangefinder patch, though). BUT... yes, it's a big "but"... BUT, how do you make it work with a mirror on it?. When it's on OVF mode, the mirror is down and the secondary mirror is AFocusing... If you switch to "live view/EVF" mode, you lose the AF of the DSLR mode, that's why AF live view is usually much worse than a viewfinder's.

If our camera had dual hybrid AF points on the sensor (and no need for the secondary AF mirror) then, yes, you can put a hybrid viewfinder and have the best of both worlds. BUT, and it's a big but, it's not that easy. And that's why the Nikon Z6 and Z7 don't focus an ass: because they don't have the D500 or D850 focusing systems, because they don't have two mirrors (actually the secondary one is enough for that; but then it wouldn't be mirrorless... like when you use the F-mount adapter, which has a permanent mirror for the AF...). But, hey! It works and people digg it (instead of crying bullshit!), so I guess it's desirable: a DSLR camera with two mirrors, only one moving up, and the secondary one discreetly in the middle all the time, so mirror down = DSLR and the OVF might have extra electronic info (like the X100_,s,t,f series have) or mirror up = Nikon interpretation of mirrorless for K mounts plus full EVF.

It *might* actually work(*)!

Note: * provided new lenses with motors suited for contrast and phase detection (this is, big, fast swoops for phase detection, and then many small, fast, silent steps for the contrast comparison). I bet that's expensive and new for Pentax...
08-28-2018, 01:13 PM - 1 Like   #867
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QuoteOriginally posted by rognone Quote
IMHO a super (and "killer") feature to have on a future K-3 III would be a sort of Hybrid OVF a la Fuji X100F.
For those who have tried it, I am sure they will agree... for the others: image an OVF but with a little display (let's say 25% of the total dimension) on the bottom right side...
and you can activate this little window to see in real time what you want: histogram, focus peaking, zebra lines or just the magnified portion around your focus point.
Now, on a mirrorless like X100F it's easy... no mirror in front of the sensor. But put that feature in a K-3... with the amazing OVF that Pentax already offer... for me = simply perfection.

(optimal use = correct focus confirmation when you are in AF... like a "manual Eye-AF"... or an amazing help with manual focusing!)

I've been waiting for Pentax to do a "hybrid" viewfinder for a while -- there was a really cool patent filing from Pentax for a hybrid optical SLR/digital EVF viewfinder. That must be more than 5 years ago now...
08-28-2018, 01:35 PM - 1 Like   #868
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QuoteOriginally posted by filmamigo Quote
I've been waiting for Pentax to do a "hybrid" viewfinder for a while -- there was a really cool patent filing from Pentax for a hybrid optical SLR/digital EVF viewfinder. That must be more than 5 years ago now...
As I mentioned before, it's quite difficult to do, because DSLRs work in a fundamentally completely different way than mirrorless cameras. Phase detection versus contrast detection really means different kind of sensors, or arithmetics and of motors for the lenses. Plus, phase detectors are basically a second, small sensor just used for AF, while mirrorless do AF with the main sensor. Only that difference is huge, both in implications, capabilities and battery life.

I think the way to go is like Canon dual pixel hybrid AF detectors on the sensor, plus some PLM lenses, which can move and focus very fast in as many steps as needed. When you find a DSLR that has as good an AF in live view as in the viewfinder, that's the perfect candidate for a hybrid OVF/EVF!

If the next sensor for our next Pentax has hybrid AF points all around, then we might have our hybrid camera, which will have the best of both worlds.

Dreaming is cheap... Keep it up! :-)
08-28-2018, 01:53 PM   #869
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QuoteOriginally posted by Excalibor Quote
As I mentioned before, it's quite difficult to do, because DSLRs work in a fundamentally completely different way than mirrorless cameras. Phase detection versus contrast detection really means different kind of sensors, or arithmetics and of motors for the lenses. Plus, phase detectors are basically a second, small sensor just used for AF, while mirrorless do AF with the main sensor. Only that difference is huge, both in implications, capabilities and battery life.

I think the way to go is like Canon dual pixel hybrid AF detectors on the sensor, plus some PLM lenses, which can move and focus very fast in as many steps as needed. When you find a DSLR that has as good an AF in live view as in the viewfinder, that's the perfect candidate for a hybrid OVF/EVF!
Doesn't the sensor used on the K-70 have the capability to focus?
08-28-2018, 02:06 PM   #870
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Pentax had hybrid viewfinder patents years ago. Must be over 15 years ago....
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