K3ii replacement

fsge · 09-21-2018, 01:07 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by thibs

If XT3 sensor is indeed from Samsung, this is encouraging.
Means Samsung is in the same ballpark performance wise as Sony.

I will let WikiMistral confirm that but I believe XT3 sensor is from Sony...

Mistral75 · 09-21-2018, 02:31 AM

There is no evidence either way yet.

solitudebound · 09-21-2018, 06:37 AM - **1 Like**

So far the fujifilm X-T3 is good and the AF works quite well. It still does not resolve images as well as the KP/K-3 particularly in the shadow to mid range details. The X-T3 images are better than the X-T2 but they are still rather flat. I did the spruce tree test to see how much detail the cameras could pick up deeper into the tree and the KP/K-3 are way ahead. As for portraits in decent light the X-T3 does better at details like hair and not having as much of that waxy like detail fill between the hairs. The down side is that tone is sacrificed and you can bring it back in post but it looks somewhat artificial.
Will be sticking with Pentax for a while longer.

Umm. Yay!

surfar · 09-21-2018, 05:30 PM

Originally posted by solitudebound

So far the fujifilm X-T3 is good and the AF works quite well. It still does not resolve images as well as the KP/K-3 particularly in the shadow to mid range details. The X-T3 images are better than the X-T2 but they are still rather flat. I did the spruce tree test to see how much detail the cameras could pick up deeper into the tree and the KP/K-3 are way ahead. As for portraits in decent light the X-T3 does better at details like hair and not having as much of that waxy like detail fill between the hairs. The down side is that tone is sacrificed and you can bring it back in post but it looks somewhat artificial.

Where are the files coming from that you are analysing?

Bophoto · 09-22-2018, 06:30 AM

Originally posted by MMVIII

Haha, I like your approach. But you avoided to answer my question.
Dpr just uploaded studio scene test shots of the X-T3 and if I compare it to the KP I see:

Studio comparison X-T3 vs. KP vs. D500 vs. A6500

And as far as I am concerned, the KP is still easyily amongst the best in it's category, if not the best. The new Fuji is softer and noisier, and from my perspective it lacks IBIS. Sure, a fine system, but if I am looking for high image quality this fancy new offer does not deliver me anything above the existing on the market. And in case of a change from KP it would be, for my style of shooting, even a downgrade. And I#m pretty sure this applies also to a large degree to existing K3-II shooters. Along these lines, I do understand the desire for a follow up of the K3II, but what IQ is concerned not much gain can be expected.

I was using digital cameras in my job since the early days starting with a Fuji Finepix S1Pro, Nikon D600, D800, Hasselblad H3D... and I must say the actual generation of APS-C is at such a high level of IQ, that it beats almost all of them, except for D800. Even the MF H3D did not have such a great noise performance at high ISO (it excelled in other areas) and was definitely lacking the speed and versatility of an actual model. That's why I decided that it is a good time to spend my private money and buy into a system with a mature technology, that will stay top notch for a longer time. And I think this is where we are at the moment. The latest generation of cameras is capable to deliver highest IQ that might be sufficient to 99% of users for the next say, five years.

And that is the problem of the camera industry, there are no real arguments for consumers to upgrade. They can offer new lenses, that make even better use of existing sensors, like Pentax is doing. Or they can start marketing campaigns trying to convince photographers, that their eqipment is inferior and that they should keep on investing, buying new camera models with new gimmicks, like some other manufacturers do. The decline in DSLR sale is not because there is a new better technology, but because the market is saturated and there is no reason for anyone with a last generation DSLR to buy a new one. The ILC might grow, but not because it is superior technology delivering better images, but just because if someone still wants to buy new equipment it is those who feel the urge or have the feeling that new must be better, somehow, "or they would not sell it"... Sites like dpr at least claim that - wait, they are owned by a company that wants to sell new equipment, gosh!

Yes, the K3 should be updated, but I don't think to come to a new level of IQ, but to offer some of the little helpers and gimmicks for convenient every day photography, like capable AF etc. Again, if I ask you to go to the comparison tool and compare the output of the Fuji with the latest sensor and the "old" KP: do you see any progress in the resulting images these tools are supposed to produce eventually? And I'm asking you, surfar, just because you replied, not specifically, can you SHOW it?

Sorry for this longish rant.

I also write a long post.
I continued my analog Pentax cameras with Ist DS, K10 and so on.
DA14 / 2.8 came -04, I was going to buy it and waited for something like 16/2, 18/2, 20 or 21/1.7, 24/1.7 and 30/1.4, as APS fast lenses.
Pentax did not do that, neither did Canikon do it, but Canikon could say that if you want fast lenses: buy FF.
The only Pentax has come to APS lenses for the past 5 years is slow zooms for "newcomers", like f4 and f5,6.
Fuji saw that it did not exist fast APS lenses for 6-8 years ago and found its niche that Pentax could do instead/ before.
K3 came 6 years ago(?) A very good camera with a first generation sensor with poor low light properties.
Then nothing.
2 years ago I bought a K1 because I can not buy fast lenses for APS and a K3 with a sensor that works in low light, with K1 i had Zenit 16 / 2.8 Tolkina 17/3,5/ K20/4, K24/2.8, FA35/2, FA50/1.4, 1,7, 2.8 and more.
Maybe I change my KP against a K3IV in a year or so and maybe I'll replace my F70-210/4-5.6 against a DFA70-200/4.
But my upgrades for APS are probably just a new camera for my old lens.
Pentax can come with new K3 and K1 with external EVF so it works like a DSLR and a MILC.

reh321 · 09-22-2018, 06:49 AM

Originally posted by Bophoto

I also write a long post.
I continued my analog Pentax cameras with Ist DS, K10 and so on.
DA14 / 2.8 came -04, I was going to buy it and waited for something like 16/2, 18/2, 20 or 21 / 1.7, 24 / 1.7 and 30 / 1.4, as APS quick lenses.
Pentax did not do that, neither did Canikon do it, but Canikon could say that if you want fast lenses: buy FF.
The only Pentax has come to APS lenses for the past 5 years is slow zooms for "newcomers", like f4 and f5,6.

Looking at KP, Pentax's answer for low light may be higher ISO - they may think f/4-5.6 is for all photographers, experienced as well as "newcomers", using APS as long as camera gracefully handles high ISO values.

**ThorSanchez** · 09-22-2018, 08:32 AM

Originally posted by Bophoto

K3 came 6 years ago(?) A very good camera with a first generation sensor with poor low light properties.

I guess I don't have any first hand experience with cameras with good low light properties, but I've gotten what I consider pretty reasonable results from a K-3II and ISO 10,000.

Attached Images

View Picture EXIF

ogl · 09-22-2018, 08:42 AM

Originally posted by fsge

I will let WikiMistral confirm that but I believe XT3 sensor is from Sony...

NX-1's sensor was better than Sony. XT3 is worse than Sony's sensors.

**Larrymc** · 09-22-2018, 09:21 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Bophoto

K3 came 6 years ago(?) A very good camera with a first generation sensor with poor low light properties.

Actually the K-3 was announced 7 October 2013 so that makes it just under 5 years from announcement date. At the time of its introduction it had very good low light capabilities for an APS-C DSLR and it still does a pretty decent job.

**Pål Jensen** · 09-22-2018, 09:25 AM - **1 Like**

Decent is an understatement....

surfar · 09-22-2018, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by ogl

NX-1's sensor was better than Sony. XT3 is worse than Sony's sensors.

On what basis?

H.Abendsen · 09-22-2018, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by surfar

On what basis?

DxO Rating ...for instance... K-3 Sensor has less DynamicRange than the Samsung NX-500/Samsung NX1 Sensor plus a higher resolution

...which the most photogs will add together to "better", even if its debatable
I dont know the High-ISO results from the Samsung NX1... And actually i seldomly shoot higher than 12.800 so i dont really care.

Nonetheless, I tried the NX1 at photokina, but despite i didnt like its contrast AF...
...or better said: I thought for myself, for 2000 bucks the AF.C is really NOT as stellar as it should be...(i tracked the girl on the swing with the NX1 from candyland. and my pentax was delivering nearly the same AF performance)...
... I believe I can remember that, the high-ISO results on the other hand are excellent...but take a look for yourself ... maybe we will see in the next PENTAX crop flagship DSLR...

I never understood Samsungs move to that artificial mount leading to the production of a mirrorless body, that... looking at its size... could also be mirrorless but with a K-mount.

MIRRORLESS IMHO should stay with M43... because its compact... (plus lenses can be also kept small at this sensor size) and I think thats the ideal size for mirrorless.

But at the very moment you increase sensor size to "crop35"... lenses grow ... overall size with a good and fast lens renders the size advantage of the MILC-body alone very pointless.

And not enough that mirrorless cameras draw more energy than (even with SR/IBIS equipped -)SLRs anyway, no they also consume much more energy the bigger the sensor gets...

The fujis and hassy MILC mf-cameras dont stand a chance against a 645Z talking about "stamina".

Weighin in all those points, i am pretty sure, there could not happen anything better than a PENTAX APS-C DSLR flagship equipped with this sensor...

Given the fact PENTAX improves its Autofocus-modules and algorithms to be competitive to Nikons D500/7500.. man... if i could buy it now for 1.500 or even 1.800 bucks i would go and get one. like.. fxxxing today.

reh321 · 09-22-2018, 01:44 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by ogl

NX-1's sensor was better than Sony. XT3 is worse than Sony's sensors.

Originally posted by surfar

On what basis?

NX-500 scored higher than K-3ii on all three DxoMark measures
Pentax K-3 II vs Samsung NX500
and it has slightly more MP.

surfar · 09-22-2018, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by reh321

NX-500 scored higher than K-3ii on all three DxoMark measures

Youve jogged my memory,ha ha...I think i saw it rated higher somewhere than the NX1 as well.

The NX500 is a great little camera(and still is),it was the one i used extensively before i got the K-1.

If the rumour is true that Ricoh have a Samsung sensor for the next Apsc,they will deliver something exceptional.

Lets hope theres news of a "development update" in a few days!

reh321 · 09-22-2018, 02:06 PM

Originally posted by surfar

Youve jogged my memory,ha ha...I think i saw it rated higher somewhere than the NX1 as well.

The NX500 is a great little camera(and still is),it was the one i used extensively before i got the K-1.

If the rumour is true that Ricoh have a Samsung sensor for the next Apsc,they will deliver something exceptional.

Lets hope theres news of a "development update" in a few days!

My guess is that the NX500 is another case where lacking a viewfinder caused a camera to be under-rated.

09-21-2018, 06:37 AM - 1 Like	#1428
solitudebound Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 140	So far the fujifilm X-T3 is good and the AF works quite well. It still does not resolve images as well as the KP/K-3 particularly in the shadow to mid range details. The X-T3 images are better than the X-T2 but they are still rather flat. I did the spruce tree test to see how much detail the cameras could pick up deeper into the tree and the KP/K-3 are way ahead. As for portraits in decent light the X-T3 does better at details like hair and not having as much of that waxy like detail fill between the hairs. The down side is that tone is sacrificed and you can bring it back in post but it looks somewhat artificial. Will be sticking with Pentax for a while longer. Umm. Yay! Last edited by solitudebound; 09-21-2018 at 06:47 AM.

09-22-2018, 06:30 AM	#1430
Bophoto Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Sweden Photos: Gallery Posts: 429	Originally posted by MMVIII Haha, I like your approach. But you avoided to answer my question. Dpr just uploaded studio scene test shots of the X-T3 and if I compare it to the KP I see: Studio comparison X-T3 vs. KP vs. D500 vs. A6500 And as far as I am concerned, the KP is still easyily amongst the best in it's category, if not the best. The new Fuji is softer and noisier, and from my perspective it lacks IBIS. Sure, a fine system, but if I am looking for high image quality this fancy new offer does not deliver me anything above the existing on the market. And in case of a change from KP it would be, for my style of shooting, even a downgrade. And I#m pretty sure this applies also to a large degree to existing K3-II shooters. Along these lines, I do understand the desire for a follow up of the K3II, but what IQ is concerned not much gain can be expected. I was using digital cameras in my job since the early days starting with a Fuji Finepix S1Pro, Nikon D600, D800, Hasselblad H3D... and I must say the actual generation of APS-C is at such a high level of IQ, that it beats almost all of them, except for D800. Even the MF H3D did not have such a great noise performance at high ISO (it excelled in other areas) and was definitely lacking the speed and versatility of an actual model. That's why I decided that it is a good time to spend my private money and buy into a system with a mature technology, that will stay top notch for a longer time. And I think this is where we are at the moment. The latest generation of cameras is capable to deliver highest IQ that might be sufficient to 99% of users for the next say, five years. And that is the problem of the camera industry, there are no real arguments for consumers to upgrade. They can offer new lenses, that make even better use of existing sensors, like Pentax is doing. Or they can start marketing campaigns trying to convince photographers, that their eqipment is inferior and that they should keep on investing, buying new camera models with new gimmicks, like some other manufacturers do. The decline in DSLR sale is not because there is a new better technology, but because the market is saturated and there is no reason for anyone with a last generation DSLR to buy a new one. The ILC might grow, but not because it is superior technology delivering better images, but just because if someone still wants to buy new equipment it is those who feel the urge or have the feeling that new must be better, somehow, "or they would not sell it"... Sites like dpr at least claim that - wait, they are owned by a company that wants to sell new equipment, gosh! Yes, the K3 should be updated, but I don't think to come to a new level of IQ, but to offer some of the little helpers and gimmicks for convenient every day photography, like capable AF etc. Again, if I ask you to go to the comparison tool and compare the output of the Fuji with the latest sensor and the "old" KP: do you see any progress in the resulting images these tools are supposed to produce eventually? And I'm asking you, surfar, just because you replied, not specifically, can you SHOW it? Sorry for this longish rant. I also write a long post. I continued my analog Pentax cameras with Ist DS, K10 and so on. DA14 / 2.8 came -04, I was going to buy it and waited for something like 16/2, 18/2, 20 or 21/1.7, 24/1.7 and 30/1.4, as APS fast lenses. Pentax did not do that, neither did Canikon do it, but Canikon could say that if you want fast lenses: buy FF. The only Pentax has come to APS lenses for the past 5 years is slow zooms for "newcomers", like f4 and f5,6. Fuji saw that it did not exist fast APS lenses for 6-8 years ago and found its niche that Pentax could do instead/ before. K3 came 6 years ago(?) A very good camera with a first generation sensor with poor low light properties. Then nothing. 2 years ago I bought a K1 because I can not buy fast lenses for APS and a K3 with a sensor that works in low light, with K1 i had Zenit 16 / 2.8 Tolkina 17/3,5/ K20/4, K24/2.8, FA35/2, FA50/1.4, 1,7, 2.8 and more. Maybe I change my KP against a K3IV in a year or so and maybe I'll replace my F70-210/4-5.6 against a DFA70-200/4. But my upgrades for APS are probably just a new camera for my old lens. Pentax can come with new K3 and K1 with external EVF so it works like a DSLR and a MILC. Last edited by Bophoto; 09-22-2018 at 07:21 AM.

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09-21-2018, 01:07 AM - 1 Like	#1426
fsge Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Genf Posts: 1,138	Originally posted by thibs If XT3 sensor is indeed from Samsung, this is encouraging. Means Samsung is in the same ballpark performance wise as Sony. I will let WikiMistral confirm that but I believe XT3 sensor is from Sony...

09-21-2018, 02:31 AM	#1427
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,527	There is no evidence either way yet.

09-21-2018, 05:30 PM	#1429
surfar Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: mid nth coast,nsw Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,141	Originally posted by solitudebound So far the fujifilm X-T3 is good and the AF works quite well. It still does not resolve images as well as the KP/K-3 particularly in the shadow to mid range details. The X-T3 images are better than the X-T2 but they are still rather flat. I did the spruce tree test to see how much detail the cameras could pick up deeper into the tree and the KP/K-3 are way ahead. As for portraits in decent light the X-T3 does better at details like hair and not having as much of that waxy like detail fill between the hairs. The down side is that tone is sacrificed and you can bring it back in post but it looks somewhat artificial. Where are the files coming from that you are analysing?

09-22-2018, 06:49 AM	#1431
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,177	Originally posted by Bophoto I also write a long post. I continued my analog Pentax cameras with Ist DS, K10 and so on. DA14 / 2.8 came -04, I was going to buy it and waited for something like 16/2, 18/2, 20 or 21 / 1.7, 24 / 1.7 and 30 / 1.4, as APS quick lenses. Pentax did not do that, neither did Canikon do it, but Canikon could say that if you want fast lenses: buy FF. The only Pentax has come to APS lenses for the past 5 years is slow zooms for "newcomers", like f4 and f5,6. Looking at KP, Pentax's answer for low light may be higher ISO - they may think f/4-5.6 is for all photographers, experienced as well as "newcomers", using APS as long as camera gracefully handles high ISO values.

09-22-2018, 08:42 AM	#1433
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by fsge I will let WikiMistral confirm that but I believe XT3 sensor is from Sony... NX-1's sensor was better than Sony. XT3 is worse than Sony's sensors.

09-22-2018, 09:21 AM - 1 Like	#1434
Larrymc Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Mississippi, USA Posts: 5,251	Originally posted by Bophoto K3 came 6 years ago(?) A very good camera with a first generation sensor with poor low light properties. Actually the K-3 was announced 7 October 2013 so that makes it just under 5 years from announcement date. At the time of its introduction it had very good low light capabilities for an APS-C DSLR and it still does a pretty decent job.

09-22-2018, 09:25 AM - 1 Like	#1435
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Decent is an understatement....

09-22-2018, 12:47 PM	#1436
surfar Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: mid nth coast,nsw Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,141	Originally posted by ogl NX-1's sensor was better than Sony. XT3 is worse than Sony's sensors. On what basis?

09-22-2018, 01:28 PM	#1437
H.Abendsen Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2018 Posts: 95	Originally posted by surfar On what basis? DxO Rating ...for instance... K-3 Sensor has less DynamicRange than the Samsung NX-500/Samsung NX1 Sensor plus a higher resolution ...which the most photogs will add together to "better", even if its debatable I dont know the High-ISO results from the Samsung NX1... And actually i seldomly shoot higher than 12.800 so i dont really care. Nonetheless, I tried the NX1 at photokina, but despite i didnt like its contrast AF... ...or better said: I thought for myself, for 2000 bucks the AF.C is really NOT as stellar as it should be...(i tracked the girl on the swing with the NX1 from candyland. and my pentax was delivering nearly the same AF performance)... ... I believe I can remember that, the high-ISO results on the other hand are excellent...but take a look for yourself ... maybe we will see in the next PENTAX crop flagship DSLR... I never understood Samsungs move to that artificial mount leading to the production of a mirrorless body, that... looking at its size... could also be mirrorless but with a K-mount. MIRRORLESS IMHO should stay with M43... because its compact... (plus lenses can be also kept small at this sensor size) and I think thats the ideal size for mirrorless. But at the very moment you increase sensor size to "crop35"... lenses grow ... overall size with a good and fast lens renders the size advantage of the MILC-body alone very pointless. And not enough that mirrorless cameras draw more energy than (even with SR/IBIS equipped -)SLRs anyway, no they also consume much more energy the bigger the sensor gets... The fujis and hassy MILC mf-cameras dont stand a chance against a 645Z talking about "stamina". Weighin in all those points, i am pretty sure, there could not happen anything better than a PENTAX APS-C DSLR flagship equipped with this sensor... Given the fact PENTAX improves its Autofocus-modules and algorithms to be competitive to Nikons D500/7500.. man... if i could buy it now for 1.500 or even 1.800 bucks i would go and get one. like.. fxxxing today.

09-22-2018, 01:44 PM - 1 Like	#1438
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,177	Originally posted by ogl NX-1's sensor was better than Sony. XT3 is worse than Sony's sensors. Originally posted by surfar On what basis? NX-500 scored higher than K-3ii on all three DxoMark measures Pentax K-3 II vs Samsung NX500 and it has slightly more MP.

09-22-2018, 01:58 PM	#1439
surfar Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: mid nth coast,nsw Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,141	Originally posted by reh321 NX-500 scored higher than K-3ii on all three DxoMark measures Youve jogged my memory,ha ha...I think i saw it rated higher somewhere than the NX1 as well. The NX500 is a great little camera(and still is),it was the one i used extensively before i got the K-1. If the rumour is true that Ricoh have a Samsung sensor for the next Apsc,they will deliver something exceptional. Lets hope theres news of a "development update" in a few days!

09-22-2018, 02:06 PM	#1440
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,177	Originally posted by surfar Youve jogged my memory,ha ha...I think i saw it rated higher somewhere than the NX1 as well. The NX500 is a great little camera(and still is),it was the one i used extensively before i got the K-1. If the rumour is true that Ricoh have a Samsung sensor for the next Apsc,they will deliver something exceptional. Lets hope theres news of a "development update" in a few days! My guess is that the NX500 is another case where lacking a viewfinder caused a camera to be under-rated.