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10-03-2018, 07:25 AM   #1861
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QuoteOriginally posted by filmamigo Quote
The parallels are accurate, differing only in how fervently Nikon and Pentax insist that the D7xxx and KP are the top of the APS-C line.

D300/s users held their breath for seven years, stamping their feet and demanding a camera. That they finally got one after seven years seems like a mini miracle and more of a good will gesture from Nikon. I would love to see sales figures for the D500 and the D750 and D610. The number of people buying a D500 have to be vanishingly small when they could buy a full frame camera for the same price or less. Especially when Best Buy has the D610 and D750 on the shelves - I've never seen a D500 there.

I think both Pentax and Nikon have been surprised that every advanced amateur didn't quietly move en masse to full frame. But for all the people loudly asking for a flagship APS-C ... how many will actually buy an 1800+ US dollar APS-C camera?
I know a lot of well-off bird, amateur sports, and wildlife photographers who love their Nikon D500, because it is super fast and accurate autofocus, and they can use it on a 400mm lens to get 600mm reach, or use it on a 500mm to get 750mm reach. For us older photographer's the weight and size savings is a true blessing... Same theory applies to Canon 7D mk.II and probably soon mk III.

10-03-2018, 07:48 AM   #1862
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QuoteOriginally posted by filmamigo Quote
The parallels are accurate, differing only in how fervently Nikon and Pentax insist that the D7xxx and KP are the top of the APS-C line.

D300/s users held their breath for seven years, stamping their feet and demanding a camera. That they finally got one after seven years seems like a mini miracle and more of a good will gesture from Nikon. I would love to see sales figures for the D500 and the D750 and D610. The number of people buying a D500 have to be vanishingly small when they could buy a full frame camera for the same price or less. Especially when Best Buy has the D610 and D750 on the shelves - I've never seen a D500 there.

I think both Pentax and Nikon have been surprised that every advanced amateur didn't quietly move en masse to full frame. But for all the people loudly asking for a flagship APS-C ... how many will actually buy an 1800+ US dollar APS-C camera?
I for one would buy one as long as it has very good ergonomics, but who said anything about $1800 for an APSC DSLR from Pentax? Additionally the D7000 series is a very traditional DSLR where the KP is very non-traditional.
10-03-2018, 07:57 AM   #1863
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QuoteOriginally posted by filmamigo Quote
But for all the people loudly asking for a flagship APS-C ... how many will actually buy an 1800+ US dollar APS-C camera?
I don't think it's going to sell for that much, but I could be wrong. If it has the AF performance similar to the D500 & 7D Mark II, I bet several users would buy it. There would probably be a shortage of the DA 55-300mm PLM lens shortly after.

QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
For example, many people would take a very slight image degradation that's usually not even visible in normal viewing in exchange for dramatically better autofocus performance that might mean the difference between an in-focus shot and an out-of-focus shot.
I'd take the trade off. I prefer a photo that's dead sharp with some very minor degradation than an out-of-focus photo that has no degradation. If the K-3II successor doesn't have much improved AF, I'll be moving on to mirrorless.
10-03-2018, 07:59 AM   #1864
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bophoto Quote
A K1Super are for the FF line.
It is more likely that a K3Super will be coming next year.
But why not both cameras developed together for the 100 years anniversary.
Now that would be impressive and a reason to celebrate 100 years - both new, top shelf cameras! And, if they could finally get their act together and also bring forth the 11-18mm and 85mm FF...

10-03-2018, 08:39 AM - 1 Like   #1865
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
But what are the practical implications of this, and what are the other tradeoffs of not having this functionality? Without pixel peeping a comparison scene can you tell?

For example, many people would take a very slight image degradation that's usually not even visible in normal viewing in exchange for dramatically better autofocus performance that might mean the difference between an in-focus shot and an out-of-focus shot.
Are this the same people that complain about a potential loss of detail of a camera boasting the Photographic Dynamic Range above it's peers?
Noone has ever visually been able to point to a visible difference in nightskyphotos, still some people keep on using the star eater adjective, which is absurd.
10-03-2018, 09:17 AM   #1866
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QuoteOriginally posted by The Squirrel Mafia Quote
I don't think it's going to sell for that much, but I could be wrong. If it has the AF performance similar to the D500 & 7D Mark II, I bet several users would buy it. There would probably be a shortage of the DA 55-300mm PLM lens shortly after.

I'd take the trade off. I prefer a photo that's dead sharp with some very minor degradation than an out-of-focus photo that has no degradation. If the K-3II successor doesn't have much improved AF, I'll be moving on to mirrorless.
I am totally with you.
The 55-300 PLM would make total sense on such a capable camera...
I haven't bought it already for myself, since I dont see that the cameras available at the moment can make much out of the possible AF-drive speed, when AF algorithms are weak or fail because they have not enough info to calculate more correctly(more AF points...) I estimate that it would take 80(or a bit more) focus points at least to become nearly as accurate as the D500.
(D500 has 153 AF-points of which 99 are cross type)


Its very likely that I would buy the PLM lens and lay out those 1800 dollars for the K-3II successor.
But only (like you also said) IF it has an AF performance similar to the Nikon D500... otherwise i would still not see any reason to walk away from K-3 and K-3II. zip. nada. null.

So yes, such a cam would defenitely need way more AF points spread out much further to the edges of the whole frame... and what they have to work on the most is AF.C!!!


BTW, to all the people who fear more costs for having 4K Video because they dont see any profit in it for their photographical work...:
Talking for myself, i say:
4K would totally kick me to buy such a camera
... since I realized that 4K Video would mean an endless burst mode with 24fps(at least)... at app. 8MP... which is fine for medium-sized posters already...
or for even bigger prints, given that I would use a good resizing algorithm.
10-03-2018, 10:56 AM - 1 Like   #1867
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There are those who think that APS is the best compromise in performance, cost and size.

10-03-2018, 11:29 AM   #1868
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
It's not really possible to reduce the size very much below that of the K-1.
A long time ago Woody Allen had a book that clearly stated "Ever since the Swiss discovered that you can reduce the size of anything by simply making it smaller...".

Now I don't know who to believe
10-03-2018, 11:39 AM   #1869
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Heat! Every 5-8°C of temperature rise in a silicon sensor doubles the noise in the sensor. (That's why astro cameras often have serious cooling systems.)

A DSLR doesn't have power the sensor except for each shot. A MILC runs the sensor all of the time the photographer wants to seen the scene.

added: yes, extended use of liveview will heat up the sensor. (There's a thread on PF somewhere in which someone tested their camera under various hot & cold conditions and the noise differences were noticeable.)
The photo below is a 100% crop of a photo (*) I took @ 3200 ISO with my Q-7. Yes, it has noise, but I'm surprised how little noise it has, considering I was running this tiny sensor at that ISO. If this is the type of noise generated by running the sensor continuously, I can live with that.


(*) featuring a group called "Straight No Chaser"
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10-03-2018, 11:51 AM - 2 Likes   #1870
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QuoteOriginally posted by woodworm Quote
I know that in 5 years time, Pentax won't be able to focus on my house as well as any other camera can do
Unless your house is moving quickly and/or erratically, I believe all objective tests of Pentax AF indicate that it is more than capable of performing its intended function very well.
10-03-2018, 01:41 PM   #1871
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QuoteOriginally posted by bxf Quote
A long time ago Woody Allen had a book that clearly stated "Ever since the Swiss discovered that you can reduce the size of anything by simply making it smaller...".

Now I don't know who to believe
OK.
I'll rephrase that. With current technology, it's not really possible to make it smaller. Of course, I'd really prefer they don't make it smaller!
10-03-2018, 02:06 PM   #1872
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
OK.
I'll rephrase that. With current technology, it's not really possible to make it smaller. Of course, I'd really prefer they don't make it smaller!
and this is where the difference of opinion lies: there are people like you who like the size of the K-1, and there are people like me who would prefer something more like my Super Program of thirty years ago.
10-03-2018, 04:02 PM   #1873
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
But what are the practical implications of this, and what are the other tradeoffs of not having this functionality? Without pixel peeping a comparison scene can you tell?

For example, many people would take a very slight image degradation that's usually not even visible in normal viewing in exchange for dramatically better autofocus performance that might mean the difference between an in-focus shot and an out-of-focus shot.
That's a fair point. Here are three implications that affect different types of photographers:

1. Low-light sports shooters: Those that depend on the camera to deliver good images at very high ISO may find that their images grow noisier as the game goes on.

2. Shadow-pullers: Likewise, those who under-expose the scene to preserve highlights and then boost the shadows might be surprised that their MILC does this well first thing in the morning, but has more trouble with noisy shadows after some period of intensive use.

3. Braggarts: Those who think their camera has superior DXO score performance may be fooling themselves as well as the people that have to listen to the boasts.

As for the trade-offs, there many trade-offs for MILC versus DSLR with both sides giving stuff up. In some cases what a MILC user gives up in going to DSLR is exactly what some people seek in going to DSLR. For example, giving up small size of MILC means getting a more comfortable camera that fits the hand better. And some people prefer an OVF or an EVF.
10-03-2018, 04:18 PM   #1874
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
and this is where the difference of opinion lies: there are people like you who like the size of the K-1, and there are people like me who would prefer something more like my Super Program of thirty years ago.
See, that's the problem! I started with an SFX! Same nice deep grip as the K-1.
10-03-2018, 04:23 PM   #1875
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
See, that's the problem! I started with an SFX! Same nice deep grip as the K-1.
If I got a "Silver KP" with the smallest grip, it would look and handle more like the two film Pentaxes I started off with {and are the cause of my affection for Pentax} than like anything else.
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