K3ii replacement

Mark Ransom · 10-24-2018, 07:04 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by reh321

I have no reason to question the accuracy of their measurements.

We don't know everything about their testing methodology though. Do they keep the camera off most of the time so it stays cool, or do they let it run hours on end?

Kunzite · 10-24-2018, 07:19 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by reh321

I have no reason to question the accuracy of their measurements.

I have no reason to trust them

To be honest, it's their lens tests that are particularly bad.
Then the policy of testing but not publishing results (until much, much later) for certain

brands...

reh321 · 10-24-2018, 07:35 AM

Originally posted by Mark Ransom

We don't know everything about their testing methodology though. Do they keep the camera off most of the time so it stays cool, or do they let it run hours on end?

Running hours on end would be totally irrelevant to me.
I plan photo - decide what perspective I want, and which {zoom} lens I'll need - then turn on camera and take photo.
Even with my Q-7, which needs to be on in order for me to have "viewfinder", camera is seldom on for more than a few minutes.
When I'm stalking animal, camera may be on for ten or fifteen minutes, but that is the maximum time on.

photoptimist · 10-24-2018, 08:07 AM

Originally posted by ThorSanchez

I appreciate the response, and I get that sensor temperature has an impact on noise performance. But... I don't think this makes a lot of sense from a practical standpoint. I don't know that a mirrorless sensor is really 20, 30, 40, 50°C hotter than a DSLR sensor in typical use. Fuji, Sony, even Pentax have had mirrorless cameras for years. I don't think that I've heard much criticism of those cameras based on sensor noise. And knowing the internet, there would be a gigantic backlash against mirrorless manufacturers if the typical use case resulted in an ISO 800 performance equivalent to ISO 3200 in a DSLR. Or base ISO being the same as 400 or 800 in a DSLR.

You're basically saying that the best Fuji or Sony should have the high-ISO noise characteristics of a DSLR from 15 years ago. Or worse. That certainly doesn't appear to be the case.

Data on sensor temperatures and "usable ISO" for DSLR versus MILC images is out there sitting in all the EXIF data on all the posted images. Perhaps someone has analyzed it but I've not seen it. The working hypothesis would be that "good images" made with a DSLR would tend to have cooler average temperatures (or a lower % of shots at high T) and higher average ISOs (or a higher percent of shots at high ISO) than similar "good images" for images made with MILCs.

The most confounding aspect of all this is how noise is mostly evaluated in subjective terms under extremely wide-ranging image and shooting conditions. Controlled field tests (e.g., two sports shooters doing the same intensive photoshoot of a basketball game) are rare and careful statistical analysis of image noise from such carefully controlled testing is even rarer.

As for DXO, I'd think that their sensor data is collected under fairly controlled and near-ideal conditions and that the total sensor heating time is quite small. The sensor test can be done under static, room temperature conditions with most of the setup done with the camera off. Once the camera is on, clicking through all the ISO options and getting the shots would be very fast.

Trickortreat · 10-24-2018, 08:14 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

I have no reason to trust them

To be honest, it's their lens tests that are particularly bad.
Then the policy of testing but not publishing results (until much, much later) for certain

brands...

Whats wrong with their lens tests? I find them quite relevant.

reh321 · 10-24-2018, 08:34 AM

Originally posted by photoptimist

As for DXO, I'd think that their sensor data is collected under fairly controlled and near-ideal conditions and that the total sensor heating time is quite small. The sensor test can be done under static, room temperature conditions with most of the setup done with the camera off. Once the camera is on, clicking through all the ISO options and getting the shots would be very fast.

But, that is how I use my camera under most circumstances.

Kunzite · 10-24-2018, 08:48 AM

Originally posted by Trickortreat

Whats wrong with their lens tests? I find them quite relevant.

Not much. Just the occasional Limited which is less sharp than a Canikon kit lens...

(on the same format, of course)

Trickortreat · 10-24-2018, 08:52 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Not much. Just the occasional Limited which is less sharp than a Canikon kit lens...

(on the same format, of course)

Thats normal you know...

Kunzite · 10-24-2018, 09:00 AM

Maybe I'm too harsh; after all, some Pentax lenses are well positioned on the DXOMark's APS-C list.
I had a look just so I wouldn't speak from distant memories. Some of the lenses less sharp than kit zooms:
- the 100mm macro
- 40mm Limited
- DA* 200 and 300mm

reh321 · 10-24-2018, 09:03 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Not much. Just the occasional Limited which is less sharp than a Canikon kit lens...

(on the same format, of course)

Canon users are always complaining about how DxOMark rates their bodies, but honestly, as a Canon user I found that their lower-tier bodies weren't much good, but the quality of their lenses kept me there for twenty years.

Kunzite · 10-24-2018, 09:14 AM

I wasn't talking about L lenses, but kit lenses - stuff like 18-55 f/3.5-5.6.
I don't expect Pentax lenses to measure better than the best Canons, except maybe for the D FA* 50mm

Trickortreat · 10-24-2018, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Maybe I'm too harsh; after all, some Pentax lenses are well positioned on the DXOMark's APS-C list.
I had a look just so I wouldn't speak from distant memories. Some of the lenses less sharp than kit zooms:
- the 100mm macro
- 40mm Limited
- DA* 200 and 300mm

There are variation between lenses. Centering quality plays a big role. Its perfectly normal for a usualy sharp lens to show bad results during tests if it is a bad copy.

reh321 · 10-24-2018, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

I wasn't talking about L lenses, but kit lenses - stuff like 18-55 f/3.5-5.6.
I don't expect Pentax lenses to measure better than the best Canons, except maybe for the D FA* 50mm

I never owned an "L" lens, but I owned some very nice lenses - which I hated to leave behind to move back to Pentax - but their Rebel bodies, not so much.

**Belnan** · 10-24-2018, 11:14 AM - **2 Likes**

It seems like Sony will soon release there A7000 or whatever its called based on the 26 MP apsc sensor. Perhaps 6 months after that we may see a new Pentax crop with the same sensor inside in a sexy new camera. This would likely mean around June so not to long really if this turns out to be the case. Perhaps they couldn't get any more speed out of the current sensor and didnt want to release an upgrade that was basically the same as the K-3. One of the tricks that I think Pentax needs to figure out is how to apply the noise reduction in a more linear fashion. Very little at base ISO and more at higher ISO's, seems like its just on right now.

photoptimist · 10-24-2018, 11:46 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by reh321

But, that is how I use my camera under most circumstances.

Then you are unlikely to experience hot-sensor image degradation unless you take lots of images and the heat accumulates.

Photographers who rarely bring the camera to their eye and who quickly zoom-frame-meter-focus-fire when they do won't have a problem.

10-24-2018, 11:14 AM - 2 Likes	#2219
Belnan Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Nova Scotia Photos: Albums Posts: 1,090	Speculation... New Pentax APSC by June It seems like Sony will soon release there A7000 or whatever its called based on the 26 MP apsc sensor. Perhaps 6 months after that we may see a new Pentax crop with the same sensor inside in a sexy new camera. This would likely mean around June so not to long really if this turns out to be the case. Perhaps they couldn't get any more speed out of the current sensor and didnt want to release an upgrade that was basically the same as the K-3. One of the tricks that I think Pentax needs to figure out is how to apply the noise reduction in a more linear fashion. Very little at base ISO and more at higher ISO's, seems like its just on right now.

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10-24-2018, 07:04 AM - 1 Like	#2206
Mark Ransom Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Photos: Albums Posts: 498	Originally posted by reh321 I have no reason to question the accuracy of their measurements. We don't know everything about their testing methodology though. Do they keep the camera off most of the time so it stays cool, or do they let it run hours on end?

10-24-2018, 07:19 AM - 1 Like	#2207
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by reh321 I have no reason to question the accuracy of their measurements. I have no reason to trust them To be honest, it's their lens tests that are particularly bad. Then the policy of testing but not publishing results (until much, much later) for certain brands...

10-24-2018, 07:35 AM	#2208
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,181	Originally posted by Mark Ransom We don't know everything about their testing methodology though. Do they keep the camera off most of the time so it stays cool, or do they let it run hours on end? Running hours on end would be totally irrelevant to me. I plan photo - decide what perspective I want, and which {zoom} lens I'll need - then turn on camera and take photo. Even with my Q-7, which needs to be on in order for me to have "viewfinder", camera is seldom on for more than a few minutes. When I'm stalking animal, camera may be on for ten or fifteen minutes, but that is the maximum time on.

10-24-2018, 08:07 AM	#2209
photoptimist Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2016 Photos: Albums Posts: 5,127	Originally posted by ThorSanchez I appreciate the response, and I get that sensor temperature has an impact on noise performance. But... I don't think this makes a lot of sense from a practical standpoint. I don't know that a mirrorless sensor is really 20, 30, 40, 50°C hotter than a DSLR sensor in typical use. Fuji, Sony, even Pentax have had mirrorless cameras for years. I don't think that I've heard much criticism of those cameras based on sensor noise. And knowing the internet, there would be a gigantic backlash against mirrorless manufacturers if the typical use case resulted in an ISO 800 performance equivalent to ISO 3200 in a DSLR. Or base ISO being the same as 400 or 800 in a DSLR. You're basically saying that the best Fuji or Sony should have the high-ISO noise characteristics of a DSLR from 15 years ago. Or worse. That certainly doesn't appear to be the case. Data on sensor temperatures and "usable ISO" for DSLR versus MILC images is out there sitting in all the EXIF data on all the posted images. Perhaps someone has analyzed it but I've not seen it. The working hypothesis would be that "good images" made with a DSLR would tend to have cooler average temperatures (or a lower % of shots at high T) and higher average ISOs (or a higher percent of shots at high ISO) than similar "good images" for images made with MILCs. The most confounding aspect of all this is how noise is mostly evaluated in subjective terms under extremely wide-ranging image and shooting conditions. Controlled field tests (e.g., two sports shooters doing the same intensive photoshoot of a basketball game) are rare and careful statistical analysis of image noise from such carefully controlled testing is even rarer. As for DXO, I'd think that their sensor data is collected under fairly controlled and near-ideal conditions and that the total sensor heating time is quite small. The sensor test can be done under static, room temperature conditions with most of the setup done with the camera off. Once the camera is on, clicking through all the ISO options and getting the shots would be very fast.

10-24-2018, 08:14 AM	#2210
Trickortreat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 561	Originally posted by Kunzite I have no reason to trust them To be honest, it's their lens tests that are particularly bad. Then the policy of testing but not publishing results (until much, much later) for certain brands... Whats wrong with their lens tests? I find them quite relevant.

10-24-2018, 08:34 AM	#2211
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,181	Originally posted by photoptimist As for DXO, I'd think that their sensor data is collected under fairly controlled and near-ideal conditions and that the total sensor heating time is quite small. The sensor test can be done under static, room temperature conditions with most of the setup done with the camera off. Once the camera is on, clicking through all the ISO options and getting the shots would be very fast. But, that is how I use my camera under most circumstances.

10-24-2018, 08:48 AM	#2212
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by Trickortreat Whats wrong with their lens tests? I find them quite relevant. Not much. Just the occasional Limited which is less sharp than a Canikon kit lens... (on the same format, of course)

10-24-2018, 08:52 AM	#2213
Trickortreat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 561	Originally posted by Kunzite Not much. Just the occasional Limited which is less sharp than a Canikon kit lens... (on the same format, of course) Thats normal you know...

10-24-2018, 09:00 AM	#2214
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Maybe I'm too harsh; after all, some Pentax lenses are well positioned on the DXOMark's APS-C list. I had a look just so I wouldn't speak from distant memories. Some of the lenses less sharp than kit zooms: - the 100mm macro - 40mm Limited - DA* 200 and 300mm

10-24-2018, 09:03 AM	#2215
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,181	Originally posted by Kunzite Not much. Just the occasional Limited which is less sharp than a Canikon kit lens... (on the same format, of course) Canon users are always complaining about how DxOMark rates their bodies, but honestly, as a Canon user I found that their lower-tier bodies weren't much good, but the quality of their lenses kept me there for twenty years.

10-24-2018, 09:14 AM	#2216
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	I wasn't talking about L lenses, but kit lenses - stuff like 18-55 f/3.5-5.6. I don't expect Pentax lenses to measure better than the best Canons, except maybe for the D FA* 50mm

10-24-2018, 09:17 AM	#2217
Trickortreat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 561	Originally posted by Kunzite Maybe I'm too harsh; after all, some Pentax lenses are well positioned on the DXOMark's APS-C list. I had a look just so I wouldn't speak from distant memories. Some of the lenses less sharp than kit zooms: - the 100mm macro - 40mm Limited - DA* 200 and 300mm There are variation between lenses. Centering quality plays a big role. Its perfectly normal for a usualy sharp lens to show bad results during tests if it is a bad copy.

10-24-2018, 09:17 AM	#2218
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,181	Originally posted by Kunzite I wasn't talking about L lenses, but kit lenses - stuff like 18-55 f/3.5-5.6. I don't expect Pentax lenses to measure better than the best Canons, except maybe for the D FA* 50mm I never owned an "L" lens, but I owned some very nice lenses - which I hated to leave behind to move back to Pentax - but their Rebel bodies, not so much.

10-24-2018, 11:46 AM - 1 Like	#2220
photoptimist Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2016 Photos: Albums Posts: 5,127	Originally posted by reh321 But, that is how I use my camera under most circumstances. Then you are unlikely to experience hot-sensor image degradation unless you take lots of images and the heat accumulates. Photographers who rarely bring the camera to their eye and who quickly zoom-frame-meter-focus-fire when they do won't have a problem.