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01-03-2018, 04:23 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Sony showed their first curved sensor in 2014. But going from manufacuring prototypes at high cost in a lab to serie production at low cost takes time. If Sony produce a FF sensor like this it would appear in a Sony camera long before the sensor will be available for Ricoh. At first the production will most likely be low volume and only enough for Sonys own demands.

A Sony camera with curved FF sensor wil probably be sold for at least USD 3499 at introduction.
Well yes and no. As I recall current APC and FF sensors (not to mention cellphones) appeared silmotansly all cameras withc used Sony's sensors or even earlier than in Sony's own cameras. Big corps who have exclusive technology make this moves, example; current OLED TVs are all LG OLED panels.


Last edited by i83N; 01-03-2018 at 04:31 AM.
01-03-2018, 05:09 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by i83N Quote
Well yes and no. As I recall current APC and FF sensors (not to mention cellphones) appeared silmotansly all cameras withc used Sony's sensors or even earlier than in Sony's own cameras. Big corps who have exclusive technology make this moves, example; current OLED TVs are all LG OLED panels.
I have not seen Sony 42 and 12 MP FF sensors used in A7 series used by other brands since they where released 2 years ago. The new 24 MP FF sensor in Sony A9 will probably not be in another brand camera for some time. The development of Sony APS-C seems to have slowed down the last few years, so I don't know if they relesed any new APS-C sensor in a while. It's usually the high end products (sensors in this case) that are most difficult to produce and will be available in limited amout during the first production runs.

Ricoh can't start developing a camera like GR-E until the have the full specification of the sensor and they know it will be available when they start to produce the first prototypes maybe 12-18 months before release. Using something new as a curved sensor will take longer to develop as there is no existing sensor the can use for prototypes. Which makes it much more likely for the sensor manufacturer to release a camera first. Because they have access to the specification and sensors much earler.

Last edited by Fogel70; 01-03-2018 at 05:18 AM.
01-03-2018, 05:46 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
I have not seen Sony 42 and 12 MP FF sensors used in A7 series used by other brands since they where released 2 years ago. The new 24 MP FF sensor in Sony A9 will probably not be in another brand camera for some time. The development of Sony APS-C seems to have slowed down the last few years, so I don't know if they relesed any new APS-C sensor in a while. It's usually the high end products (sensors in this case) that are most difficult to produce and will be available in limited amout during the first production runs.

Ricoh can't start developing a camera like GR-E until the have the full specification of the sensor and they know it will be available when they start to produce the first prototypes maybe 12-18 months before release. Using something new as a curved sensor will take longer to develop as there is no existing sensor the can use for prototypes. Which makes it much more likely for the sensor manufacturer to release a camera first. Because they have access to the specification and sensors much earler.
I don't think the situation is like you describe it. Sony Semiconductor has sensors that they keep exclusive for a the Sony camera division, and others commissioned by other customers. Considering the 12mp sensor, it may well be an exclusive to Sony, but who would buy it otherwise? I can't see other manufacturers breaking down the door to get a 12mp full frame sensor. As for the 42mp sensor, it appears that they did try to sell it to Nikon for the D850, but Nikon wanted a custom job. Them Hogan explains in this article.
Sensor Wars Update | DSLRBodies | Thom Hogan
Actually, that article is interesting, because it paints a picture of Sony still struggling to meet demand after the earthquake disruption and manufacturers looking for an alternative. I'm pretty sure that Sony spent a lot of last year apologizing to customers for not being able to produce their orders. With a potential new competitor, that's not a good place for them to be.

Regarding the curved sensor, it's another niche sensor. They can't sell it for DSLR cameras. They can't sell it for any existing mirrorless system. My understanding is that it's difficult to build a zoom lens to work with a curved sensor. So that leaves fixed focal length compacts. So it will probably be used in the Sony RX1 series, but beyond that the market is very limited. If they are indeed making this, it's quite possible that Ricoh has been an intended customer from the start, and even involved in the development. Also, it might be a lot cheaper to order this as a relatively simple sensor without the video tech in it.

Ultimately, I'm still not sure about this rumor at all, but the idea that they Sony Semiconductor would not share specs with a customer is not credible to me.
01-03-2018, 06:02 AM   #19
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Such a much would certainly kickstart the Pentax brand name.

01-03-2018, 06:03 AM - 1 Like   #20
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What I find most interesting when going to the DP Review website is the eighth most popular camera at the moment with 1.7% of overall sales!
01-03-2018, 06:16 AM - 3 Likes   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by x4rd Quote
Pentax Rumors released some intel about upcoming Pentax (Ricoh) GR-E, full frame GR compact body with FF sensor.

Here are the details: Ricoh/Pentax GR-E full frame curved sensor camera rumors | Pentax Rumors

(...) apparently Ricoh will cease all camera production and the GR line will be moved over to the Pentax brand:
  • 36MP curved sensor
  • To be announced in spring or early summer
  • Price: $1,800
  • 122.0 mm (W) × 64.7 mm (H) × 39.8 mm (D)
  • 28mm f/2.4 lens (non-retractable)
  • Customizable lens ring
  • ISO 51,200
  • New battery
A "Rumor" based on a chat, itself based on another chat, said chat is deleted.

Very credible and serious source
01-03-2018, 06:47 AM - 1 Like   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by aurele Quote
A "Rumor" based on a chat, itself based on another chat, said chat is deleted.

Very credible and serious source
Precisely, and yet we get 2 pages of speculation about less than nothing. Ricoh needs to have pity and announce something, anything...perhaps a new camera strap or....
01-03-2018, 07:03 AM - 1 Like   #23
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Or two high end lenses?

01-03-2018, 07:06 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by BROO Quote
What I find most interesting when going to the DP Review website is the eighth most popular camera at the moment with 1.7% of overall sales!
not sales, views of the review or preview: Statistics for interchangeable lens cameras: Digital Photography Review : Digital Photography Review


I think this rumour is nonsense
01-03-2018, 07:27 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by aurele Quote
A "Rumor" based on a chat, itself based on another chat, said chat is deleted. Very credible and serious source
Curved sensor is for sure some decoy, anyway it's a rumour section isn't it?
01-03-2018, 07:33 AM   #26
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As I mentioned, I think the source of this rumor is highly suspect. However, I'm interested in the idea and I think it may be the route Ricoh chooses anyway. if such sensor exists, as one of the leading compact cameras with a prime lens, the GR would certainly be a candidate to use it. At the same time, the GR is quite niche, so a lot of people who want a 28mm APS-C camera have already bought it. To get them to upgrade, they need to do more than just put a newer APS-C sensor and give it dust seals. Users need to have a compelling reason to upgrade without losing the essence of the GR, and curved sensors look to be ideal for this.

I see no harm in discussing the possibility, or being optimistic in general. Every second GR has been a significant upgrade, and I expect the next one to be so too.
01-03-2018, 07:39 AM - 2 Likes   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
I don't think the situation is like you describe it. Sony Semiconductor has sensors that they keep exclusive for a the Sony camera division, and others commissioned by other customers. Considering the 12mp sensor, it may well be an exclusive to Sony, but who would buy it otherwise? I can't see other manufacturers breaking down the door to get a 12mp full frame sensor. As for the 42mp sensor, it appears that they did try to sell it to Nikon for the D850, but Nikon wanted a custom job. Them Hogan explains in this article.
Sensor Wars Update | DSLRBodies | Thom Hogan
Actually, that article is interesting, because it paints a picture of Sony still struggling to meet demand after the earthquake disruption and manufacturers looking for an alternative. I'm pretty sure that Sony spent a lot of last year apologizing to customers for not being able to produce their orders. With a potential new competitor, that's not a good place for them to be.

Regarding the curved sensor, it's another niche sensor. They can't sell it for DSLR cameras. They can't sell it for any existing mirrorless system. My understanding is that it's difficult to build a zoom lens to work with a curved sensor. So that leaves fixed focal length compacts. So it will probably be used in the Sony RX1 series, but beyond that the market is very limited. If they are indeed making this, it's quite possible that Ricoh has been an intended customer from the start, and even involved in the development. Also, it might be a lot cheaper to order this as a relatively simple sensor without the video tech in it.
Without video tech? I highly doubt they use a sensor without live view. It's not much else needed to be able to record video. As video is a standard feature on sensors today it would be more expensive to make a custom sensor without video, at least in the small volume that Ricoh would order.

QuoteQuote:
Ultimately, I'm still not sure about this rumor at all, but the idea that they Sony Semiconductor would not share specs with a customer is not credible to me.
Its not what I said. I said that that Sony have earlier access to specification.

Especially since many of the new Sony FF sensors seems to have been custom designed for their mirrorless cameras. I doubt that Sony will give away specification on custom sensors to other customers, at least until the camera has been released.

Here is a list of Sony sensors for cameras avialable off the shelf for anyone.
Products Line up for Camera Image Sensor for Camera | Sony Semiconductor Solutions Corporation
01-03-2018, 07:54 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Without video tech? I highly doubt they use a sensor without live view. It's not much else needed to be able to record video. As video is a standard feature on sensors today it would be more expensive to make a custom sensor without video, at least in the small volume that Ricoh would order.

Its not what I said. I said that that Sony have earlier access to specification.

Especially since many of the new Sony FF sensors seems to have been custom designed for their mirrorless cameras. I doubt that Sony will give away specification on custom sensors to other customers, at least until the camera has been released.

Here is a list of Sony sensors for cameras avialable off the shelf for anyone.
Products Line up for Camera Image Sensor for Camera | Sony Semiconductor Solutions Corporation
Yes. But there are basically three ways Sony does this:
- For Sony, meaning others have to wait two years to get the sensor
- Off the shelf, which is from the list you described
- Custom order, which means the sensor is made to the customer's desired specification, and that is what I'm suggesting might be happening here. If this is what Ricoh has done, it would not appear on any public list and Ricoh would know the spec from the beginning.

This DPR article has an explanation from Sony themselves about how it works if you scroll down to the section "Vision over profit".
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/9600049212/sony-vision-over-profit

I'm just saying it's not impossible.
01-03-2018, 07:54 AM   #29
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$1800 seems low for such a beastie.
01-03-2018, 08:01 AM   #30
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Ricoh should license/create Kodak in-camera profiles and roll them out with the next GR, a response to Fuji.
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