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01-27-2018, 07:45 AM - 2 Likes   #181
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tatouzou Quote
Not enough sales = not enough cashflow = no money for R&D = out of business soon!
And so, to increase sales, they develop attractive new products.

New products = new sales = more cashflow = money for R&D = New products = new sales... etc.

Same for any camera manufacturer. Actually, same for manufacturers of pretty much any product They're all in the same position

01-27-2018, 08:10 AM   #182
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I just think that whatever the reason, the extra money and feature set won't be enough to convince the current dialogue of the K1's value that its a worthy 'upgrade'. I think it would still be selling very well. I don't believe they will suddenly have major AF improvements, I don't think they'll suddenly have great video codecs. Is the pro market holding up nikon or sony? Or is it the bigger sellers. Sony's rx100 is still being made. The profit margin from the 6000 line I would have to assume is sizable. Their high end stuff still seems to be experimental, and good for them. Canon gets a free pass through market share. They don't have the best of anything, besides lenses. But they charge for it. When anyone else does it people question the value of it...

The camera world is in a weird place. And I'm not sure woo'ing pros' is as profitable as it once was.
01-27-2018, 08:20 AM   #183
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If they fix the most important niggles I have with the K-1, I might buy it (presumably after selling the K-1 for a good price). I'd rather wait a bit more and get significant improvements though; after all, my funds are limited.
But... a K-1 mk II is probably not addressed to current K-1 owners.
01-27-2018, 08:31 AM - 1 Like   #184
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There is so little I would like improved on the K-1 (write speed and AF tweeks) that I would prefer they get a new high end crop sensor or 645 first. Actually, as long as they stay in business, I do really care what they come up with next. I am set for quite awhile with my K-1s.

01-27-2018, 08:41 AM - 1 Like   #185
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To me the K-1 is the K-1000 of FF cameras. Whatever it's weaknesses are, I can live with them.

The K-3 with the 23 shot buffer and 8 FPS , as the Pentax action camera, is the body that needs improvement. The K-1 already occupies a spot that is pretty much unchallenged in terms of capability per dollar spent.

Last edited by normhead; 01-30-2018 at 07:21 AM.
01-27-2018, 08:42 AM   #186
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tatouzou Quote
Not enough sales = not enough cashflow = no money for R&D = out of business soon!
This is a wise statement. I agree. And the viability of Pentax product lines is more related to how they conduct business (no marketing, hence low market) rather than directly related to how the Pentax products are design. Personally, if I look at the high-end Pentax products, they are well built and image quality is good. On this forum, everything always come to discussions about the products being responsible to Pentax non success, but we all know business success doesn't only come from products.
01-27-2018, 08:46 AM - 1 Like   #187
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tatouzou Quote
Not enough sales = not enough cashflow = no money for R&D = out of business soon!
Yet Apple , with a very small percentage of the computer market, has always maintained very high profit margins, highest in the industry.

Large sales at low profit margins = not enough cashflow = no money for R&D = out of business soon.

Let's not over simplify. There are simply hundreds of companies that have been around for a long time without ever being accused of dominating the sales market.

Ricoh has a stated company policy of looking for profit margins, not market share at the moment. The above quote is contradicted by current corporate policy.

The result of that is, I'm slowly warming to the possibility of buying a DFA 15-30 instead of the 20mm f4 I'd really like but which isn't on the roadmap. One $2000 CAD item instead of one $800. With more profit coming from the DFA one could argue, if I do eventually get one, Pentax will have essentially have the same market share, will have sold me the same number of lenses, but will have raked in more of my money.

So in that sense
less product = more money for R&D blah, blah, blah
It's not about how much money runs through the company, it's about how much of it they get to keep. I suspect it's the Canon/Nikon model of providing huge numbers of low cost low quality product to flood the bottom end of the market that is currently under attack.


Last edited by normhead; 01-27-2018 at 09:02 AM.
01-27-2018, 08:49 AM - 2 Likes   #188
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
This is a great price. K1 isn't much better, no really better AF, heavier, bigger,
That's true. Although K1 is the smallest FF DSLR, D500 (apsc) is the same size as a K1.../ So, yeah, at this point in time if you weren't invest in a Pentax FF system, it could be wise to invest in an other mount. For me it's already done so I'm stuck with Pentax K1 since 2016, and I also like to use the K1 system very much, really my style (I don't like cameras with skinny grips and small buttons because I have man fingers).
01-27-2018, 10:16 AM   #189
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Yet Apple , with a very small percentage of the computer market, has always maintained very high profit margins, highest in the industry.
The smartphone market is huge like 100 time bigger, and apple has something like 15% of that market. In 1 year, apple is selling more smartphone than Pentax has sold camera in the last 30 years. Apple problem is finding ways to spend its money. Would they want it, they could buy Canon, Sony, Nikon & Pentax without having to ask a bank for a credit.

Apple managed be be back in business first with itunes and ipods and then with iphones. That 2 major innovation and products like Pentax when they did the Pentaprism or Sony the walkman.

But the different is that Pentax did it long long ago. Today people do not know about Pentax. Everybody know of apple. If you prefer this isn't about market share. This is about volume and absolute number for money.

You can be Boing and sell only a few hundred a year and make a profit, but there still lot of money to be made. But people don't pay 50 millions dollars for a camera, they don't buy a new one every 2 years neither and don't always have one in their pocket.

The market is small, and as such it is much harder to stay relevant as a tiny play. Not everybody can become Leica. That market itself is even much smaller... There also fixed cost, like designing a new AF sensor, implementing 4K video and so on. The less you sell, the less spread it is.

Canon may make more money on an entry level DSLR body than Pentax is making on a K1, because all their R&D cost is spread on 20-50 time more sales and things like manufacturing costs or advertising can be spread among more sales.

Last edited by Nicolas06; 01-27-2018 at 10:35 AM.
01-27-2018, 10:27 AM   #190
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
That's true. Although K1 is the smallest FF DSLR, D500 (apsc) is the same size as a K1.../ So, yeah, at this point in time if you weren't invest in a Pentax FF system, it could be wise to invest in an other mount. For me it's already done so I'm stuck with Pentax K1 since 2016, and I also like to use the K1 system very much, really my style (I don't like cameras with skinny grips and small buttons because I have man fingers).
Agree and it nice for all of us to find our style or admit we may not have the perfect setup. By definition most of us will not have the perfect setup if only because our needs change over time and the available products too.

I learned photography as amateur, with Pentax mostly. I gone to few forums, reads books, took many photos and all. Tried zooms, prime, fast, slow, big small lenses. Now I start to feel like I can settle a bit and see what correspond to me.

In the end the gear is far less important than the rest: subject lighting, composition. As such why bother with big/heavy/expensive? Make no sense as an amateur. As a pro, sure.

I feel like the cheap FF is a nice compromize: 99% of the quality of the high end FF for photos, better than high end APSC for the same price and on get it with cheaper slowers lenses. It is also more conveniant smaller/lighter in the bag.

For many APSC with kit lens and maybe one 50mm prime is better compromize, for most, it is whatever come with the smartphone. For other you need the best possible. Each to its own.

I was in aggreement with old Pentax philosophy. That's why I am there, and that why I have Pentax gear. Well not even, I got there because I read a review the K5 was a great high iso performer and I appreciated the limited after that. Recents changes do not fit me. Big/Heavy/Expensive. So if there no change, slowly yes, I'll sell my gear and go toward Sony. I'd stay if they release an FF K mount mirrorless before I sell my lenses. Do not look like they will. And really that's fine they produce what they want, I buy what I want.

My father gone to the same conclusion, except he is more drastic in his choice. He think with modern electronics performance, an m4/3 + kit lenses and a few prime is enough and now invest in that and no more in Pentax. Being much older than me he explain me that it was the trend in photography since its creation: lighter/smaller. Not the other way around. Being practical.

Last edited by Nicolas06; 01-27-2018 at 10:42 AM.
01-27-2018, 10:44 AM   #191
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Still independantly, I think the K1 is yes a bit expensive for what it is. In form of expensive DSLR, I find the D850 as the most interresting all rounder. If I was to buy an FF DSLR, it would be more a D610: better price, lighter in the bag, much better lens echosystem.

So yes I do think that Pentax shall adress the price driven consumers as well as the high end. K1 being alone is a bit limiting in the middle;

But with a K1-II, they can drop the price of K1, ensure to have an offering most would find very interresting with great value and also cover the high end for the one that want it. So I say great move.

And it isn't me that decided that. If they come with a K1-II that would be Pentax actually doing it. I just said I find the strategy great.
01-27-2018, 11:37 AM   #192
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The thing is that here is not any moves like that going on.

And actually K-1 is great for what it is what you want it so cheap, is that you are Little cheap. Especial Wien you have bought Sony A7 When it is so cheap, it kind a underlines that. Now D850 is great, but it is also more expensive, where as D610 is what it is...making K-1more cheap does not change much things, atleast on your list. So what bring it up?

Sure when net model eventually comes it changes, but as Kenspo said, there is not much like that to be waited ni near future..
01-27-2018, 11:48 AM   #193
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Still independantly, I think the K1 is yes a bit expensive for what it is. In form of expensive DSLR, I find the D850 as the most interresting all rounder. If I was to buy an FF DSLR, it would be more a D610: better price, lighter in the bag, much better lens echosystem.

So yes I do think that Pentax shall adress the price driven consumers as well as the high end. K1 being alone is a bit limiting in the middle;

But with a K1-II, they can drop the price of K1, ensure to have an offering most would find very interresting with great value and also cover the high end for the one that want it. So I say great move.

And it isn't me that decided that. If they come with a K1-II that would be Pentax actually doing it. I just said I find the strategy great.
I doubt price makes all that much difference. However a K1 or a K1 Mark II is priced, it will still be in an expected ballpark. The real thing is that you’d have to really really want to buy this because a) it’s full frame, b) it’s a traditional DSLR, and c) it’s from Pentax, a small brand not so well known and with only a modest catalogue of suitable modern lenses compared to the big boys. About 99 per cent of folks won’t be in this frame, ever. This is a very specialised market, in fact, even more so when one considers that the real strength of the K1 is in things like landscape photography. It’s not so much of a generalist camera. If you are one of the few whose boxes this camera ticks, chances are you’ll buy it anyway, like it a lot and the price won’t put you off (within reason).

Three things will move Pentax along, perhaps. Lenses, marketing and modernisation (video, mirrorless, improved AF, e.g.). A new iteration of the K1 is very welcome but on its own that won’t really change Pentax’s overall position. I still think what they do or don’t do in 2018 across all three format will turn out to be crucial to their future.

Last edited by mecrox; 01-27-2018 at 12:09 PM.
01-27-2018, 11:51 AM - 1 Like   #194
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imho going from pentax to sony is moving towards a much more expensive system. Look at prices of the G series lenses, and their size too. You lose all advantage of mirrorless body sizes if you buy fast modern glass for it. But if you're adapting older or manual glass, then you can have a relatively small kit. Also consider original a7 was released in 2013, while K-1 was released in 2016. Obviously a 4-5 year old body would cost less than a newer body.

---------- Post added 01-27-18 at 11:55 AM ----------

I cannot understand why K-1 can be considered expensive "for what it is". You get superior image quality for a lot less, and while you do sacrifice af and maybe access to third party glass, you get features unique to Pentax. What it is - possibly the best landscape camera out there, please provide your reasoning for why you think it is "overpriced".
01-27-2018, 12:04 PM - 3 Likes   #195
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As I read through this thread, I can't help but wonder how many of the people who are critical of the K1 and a possible new full frame offering have spent any time shooting a K1?
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