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02-10-2018, 11:46 AM   #226
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
the only thing that can sell me knew is 10 fps, a 100+ shot buffer, and a much improved AF system for wildlife and sports in the APS_c flagship.
I wonder if that is the only 'niche' left for an APS-C flagship. I agree Ricoh seems to not worry about consistency in naming or models but rather identify a niche that they can fill. K-1 has a definite niche. KP has a definite niche. The big hole in their line is a fast frames per second sports / wildlife body. 24mp, 10+ fps, big fast clearing buffer, better AF tracking.

For landscape I really cannot ask for more than the K-1. For longer reach and lighter weight the K-3II is very good though not perfect. An extension and improvement of the proven K-3II specifications seems logical. I personally shoot very little wildlife so for me the K-3II has quite a few years left in it.

02-10-2018, 11:48 AM - 5 Likes   #227
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QuoteOriginally posted by mtgmansf Quote
Agreed. If the 645z is to be a complete system, then an ultra-wide zoom or primes are needed, like with Fuji and Hasselblad! Fortunately for K1 shooters, the Swiss company called Irix makes two great 15mm a 11mm lenses. I have the 11mm and have seen even better reviews of the 15mm. New super telephotos, however, are still a problem...
If you can afford a super telephoto you can afford the body it goes on. People who worry about $1000 here or there aren't in the super telephoto market, unless you are talking 6.3 options. Now there are 150-600s from 3rd party manufacturers, but, the Pentax 150-450 is a pretty good lens, and no one has actually ever answered the question... 150-600 or Pentax 150-450 cropped, which is better?

"I'd buy a 600 ƒ4 for $15k right now if Pentax made one.!"
"Ya, sure you would."

The fair way to say this would be "if you have $20k to blow on a camera system Pentax will leave you short. If it's only 10k or less, Pentax will do just fine."

It never seems to occur to most, that for a guy looking for a body and 5 lenses or less, every system is a complete system, and based on the general population, that's a complete package, because it does everything they need. "Complete system" is camera person sales talk.

"You might want to buy a $10k lens sometime."

and "If your mother had wheels, she'd be a bus."

You can claim the lack of super telephoto is a disadvantage, accept for the part where a very high percentage of DSLR shooters can't afford them, making them irrelevant to 99% of these types of conversations. Most of us are limited from buying super-telephotos buy how much money is in their wallets, not by lack of availability from Pentax. Have not seen one person on the forum complaining about lack of super-telephotos, who could drop $10k on a lens. Most of it is hot air.

And it gets all kind of tiring when people go on as if those who might need a "complete system" needs to be addressed, every time someone asks a question. It's all about relevance. I know many of you are committed to the ridiculous thought patterns, but please, try and maintain some semblance of relevance. You don't get to define what is a "complete system" for anyone. There are no "more complete systems", there are complete and not complete systems. People who argue you can't get a "complete system" that ,lets their needs from Pentax are promoting ignorance. Whether or not you can get a system that is for you complete from Pentax depends entirely on your needs. The imaginary "complete system" is a figment of a few folks imaginations.

Answer the question asked, not the one you wish they'd asked. In what way is telling someone who wants camera and couple lenses that he can get a more complete system elsewhere even ethical? It's nonsense. An attempt to sound knowledgeable by introducing irrelevant information that makes no difference to most people.

Last edited by normhead; 02-10-2018 at 12:55 PM.
02-10-2018, 01:23 PM - 1 Like   #228
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
You can claim the lack of super telephoto is a disadvantage, accept for the part where a very high percentage of DSLR shooters can't afford them, making them irrelevant to 99% of these types of conversations. Most of us are limited from buying super-telephotos buy how much money is in their wallets, not by lack of availability from Pentax. Have not seen one person on the forum complaining about lack of super-telephotos, who could drop $10k on a lens. Most of it is hot air.

Your probably right on this -- Canon and Nikon have this well covered anyway if you need the AF and the big lenses. For the rest of us, however, a simple little high quality updated full frame 1.4x or 2x teleconverter would go a long way in increasing the utility of our 70-200 and 140-450s.
02-10-2018, 01:30 PM   #229
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QuoteOriginally posted by travelswsage Quote
Your probably right on this -- Canon and Nikon have this well covered anyway if you need the AF and the big lenses. For the rest of us, however, a simple little high quality updated full frame 1.4x or 2x teleconverter would go a long way in increasing the utility of our 70-200 and 140-450s.
And FA*/DA*300 for those who have them.


Last edited by monochrome; 02-11-2018 at 05:41 AM.
02-10-2018, 01:32 PM   #230
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A few years back I got to borrow the Nikon 200-400 f4 for a trip to Yellowstone. So I had a lens more valuable than my vehicle. Borrowing it for free was nice having to pay for it , outside my budget. My other option for a free loaner was the 400 2.8 even slightly more out of my league. Yes if you want a 200 2.0. 800 or a 400 2.8 Nikon is a better choice. 8f you like the DA Limited not sure what Nikkor compare to them.
02-10-2018, 01:37 PM - 1 Like   #231
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Have not seen one person on the forum complaining about lack of super-telephotos, who could drop $10k on a lens
This :
Is me.
Now you've seen one.
02-10-2018, 02:20 PM - 1 Like   #232
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
It is funny that you think that they have been focusing on full frame, because people who shoot full frame have been complaining about the slow release of lenses for the K-1 and most definitely have not been asking for a new camera. I think Pentax has a pretty slow pace of movement. The K-1's release was put off for quite awhile, mostly because the release of the 645z took most of their resources.

I would say that your impression of Nikon's support of APS-C is different from Nikonians. Yes, they have a D500 now, but the D300 was released in August of 2007 and the D500 was released in January of 2016 -- almost 10 years between "flagship" models. Thom Hogan and others were clamoring for a D400 in between times, but Nikon was apparently afraid it would steal full frame sales and so hesitated to release such a camera. It isn't to say that Nikon doesn't have nice lenses and cameras, just that they have their own priorities and at least traditionally, their company has been focused on getting every photographer into full frame cameras that they can and they have done that by limiting APS-C only lenses and limiting the performance of APS-C camera bodies in comparison to full frame options.
Although I agree Nikon's DX history is a bit mixed, I think it's important to note that the D7xxx series has also rivaled what have been the Pentax flagship lines, although you can debate that in various ways. If I recall when Nikon brought out the 7200 it went with a newer sensor than the 7100 had (for good reason, but that's another story), and the 7200 sensor was generally more highly regarded than the K3/K3ii sensor. And now of course there is a 7500, although again there is some debate as to how much of an upgrade (in some ways, not in others) that is vs. the 7200. But the point is that I don't think it's fair to only point to the Nikon xxx series with regards to comparisons with Pentax.
02-10-2018, 02:22 PM   #233
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
If you can afford a super telephoto you can afford the body it goes on. People who worry about $1000 here or there aren't in the super telephoto market, unless you are talking 6.3 options. Now there are 150-600s from 3rd party manufacturers, but, the Pentax 150-450 is a pretty good lens, and no one has actually ever answered the question... 150-600 or Pentax 150-450 cropped, which is better?

"I'd buy a 600 4 for $15k right now if Pentax made one.!"
"Ya, sure you would."

The fair way to say this would be "if you have $20k to blow on a camera system Pentax will leave you short. If it's only 10k or less, Pentax will do just fine."

It never seems to occur to most, that for a guy looking for a body and 5 lenses or less, every system is a complete system, and based on the general population, that's a complete package, because it does everything they need. "Complete system" is camera person sales talk.

"You might want to buy a $10k lens sometime."

and "If your mother had wheels, she'd be a bus."

You can claim the lack of super telephoto is a disadvantage, accept for the part where a very high percentage of DSLR shooters can't afford them, making them irrelevant to 99% of these types of conversations. Most of us are limited from buying super-telephotos buy how much money is in their wallets, not by lack of availability from Pentax. Have not seen one person on the forum complaining about lack of super-telephotos, who could drop $10k on a lens. Most of it is hot air.

And it gets all kind of tiring when people go on as if those who might need a "complete system" needs to be addressed, every time someone asks a question. It's all about relevance. I know many of you are committed to the ridiculous thought patterns, but please, try and maintain some semblance of relevance. You don't get to define what is a "complete system" for anyone. There are no "more complete systems", there are complete and not complete systems. People who argue you can't get a "complete system" that ,lets their needs from Pentax are promoting ignorance. Whether or not you can get a system that is for you complete from Pentax depends entirely on your needs. The imaginary "complete system" is a figment of a few folks imaginations.

Answer the question asked, not the one you wish they'd asked. In what way is telling someone who wants camera and couple lenses that he can get a more complete system elsewhere even ethical? It's nonsense. An attempt to sound knowledgeable by introducing irrelevant information that makes no difference to most people.
There are a few. Many of them have tried the DA 560 and Sigma 500 (older version) and end up going to a different mount for their super telephoto needs. I don't know if there are enough of them out there for it to make sense for Pentax to make such gear. The FA *600 f4 was available for a long time, but I doubt they ever sold more than 15 or 20 copies a year.

02-10-2018, 02:29 PM - 1 Like   #234
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
There are a few. Many of them have tried the DA 560 and Sigma 500 (older version) and end up going to a different mount for their super telephoto needs. I don't know if there are enough of them out there for it to make sense for Pentax to make such gear. The FA *600 f4 was available for a long time, but I doubt they ever sold more than 15 or 20 copies a year.
I looked pretty hard at the FA*600/4 with all the trimmings that Ron Boggs had in the Marketplace. It took a couple weeks to sell. IIRC he eventually discounted it. Even I have a $ limit for what I’m willing to spend for a toy and I don’t regret letting it get away - knowing that was probably the only chance I’ll ever have. The SMC K500/4 is as much as I need, at 1/20 the cost.

It would be a different decision if I knew I could sell publication quality images like Ron does.
02-10-2018, 02:55 PM   #235
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
If you can afford a super telephoto you can afford the body it goes on. People who worry about $1000 here or there aren't in the super telephoto market, unless you are talking 6.3 options. Now there are 150-600s from 3rd party manufacturers, but, the Pentax 150-450 is a pretty good lens, and no one has actually ever answered the question... 150-600 or Pentax 150-450 cropped, which is better?

"I'd buy a 600 4 for $15k right now if Pentax made one.!"
"Ya, sure you would."

The fair way to say this would be "if you have $20k to blow on a camera system Pentax will leave you short. If it's only 10k or less, Pentax will do just fine."

It never seems to occur to most, that for a guy looking for a body and 5 lenses or less, every system is a complete system, and based on the general population, that's a complete package, because it does everything they need. "Complete system" is camera person sales talk.

"You might want to buy a $10k lens sometime."

and "If your mother had wheels, she'd be a bus."

You can claim the lack of super telephoto is a disadvantage, accept for the part where a very high percentage of DSLR shooters can't afford them, making them irrelevant to 99% of these types of conversations. Most of us are limited from buying super-telephotos buy how much money is in their wallets, not by lack of availability from Pentax. Have not seen one person on the forum complaining about lack of super-telephotos, who could drop $10k on a lens. Most of it is hot air.

And it gets all kind of tiring when people go on as if those who might need a "complete system" needs to be addressed, every time someone asks a question. It's all about relevance. I know many of you are committed to the ridiculous thought patterns, but please, try and maintain some semblance of relevance. You don't get to define what is a "complete system" for anyone. There are no "more complete systems", there are complete and not complete systems. People who argue you can't get a "complete system" that ,lets their needs from Pentax are promoting ignorance. Whether or not you can get a system that is for you complete from Pentax depends entirely on your needs. The imaginary "complete system" is a figment of a few folks imaginations.

Answer the question asked, not the one you wish they'd asked. In what way is telling someone who wants camera and couple lenses that he can get a more complete system elsewhere even ethical? It's nonsense. An attempt to sound knowledgeable by introducing irrelevant information that makes no difference to most people.
You are spot on, those super telephoto lenses and other such extremely pensive gear and lenses do have relevance to only a tiny number of people.

Median US annual income is <60K a year. People of normal income levels $8000 on a lens.
02-10-2018, 06:28 PM - 3 Likes   #236
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
If you can afford a super telephoto you can afford the body it goes on. People who worry about $1000 here or there aren't in the super telephoto market, unless you are talking 6.3 options. Now there are 150-600s from 3rd party manufacturers, but, the Pentax 150-450 is a pretty good lens, and no one has actually ever answered the question... 150-600 or Pentax 150-450 cropped, which is better?

"I'd buy a 600 ƒ4 for $15k right now if Pentax made one.!"
"Ya, sure you would."

The fair way to say this would be "if you have $20k to blow on a camera system Pentax will leave you short. If it's only 10k or less, Pentax will do just fine."

It never seems to occur to most, that for a guy looking for a body and 5 lenses or less, every system is a complete system, and based on the general population, that's a complete package, because it does everything they need. "Complete system" is camera person sales talk.

"You might want to buy a $10k lens sometime."

and "If your mother had wheels, she'd be a bus."

You can claim the lack of super telephoto is a disadvantage, accept for the part where a very high percentage of DSLR shooters can't afford them, making them irrelevant to 99% of these types of conversations. Most of us are limited from buying super-telephotos buy how much money is in their wallets, not by lack of availability from Pentax. Have not seen one person on the forum complaining about lack of super-telephotos, who could drop $10k on a lens. Most of it is hot air.

And it gets all kind of tiring when people go on as if those who might need a "complete system" needs to be addressed, every time someone asks a question. It's all about relevance. I know many of you are committed to the ridiculous thought patterns, but please, try and maintain some semblance of relevance. You don't get to define what is a "complete system" for anyone. There are no "more complete systems", there are complete and not complete systems. People who argue you can't get a "complete system" that ,lets their needs from Pentax are promoting ignorance. Whether or not you can get a system that is for you complete from Pentax depends entirely on your needs. The imaginary "complete system" is a figment of a few folks imaginations.

Answer the question asked, not the one you wish they'd asked. In what way is telling someone who wants camera and couple lenses that he can get a more complete system elsewhere even ethical? It's nonsense. An attempt to sound knowledgeable by introducing irrelevant information that makes no difference to most people.
Wow, besides being condescending, you make many projections and opinions based on zero knowledge on who I am, my experience, real purchase data, and what money I will, and have, spent on photographic equipment, as well as my friends who are serious birders and animal photographers! Fact -Ricoh/Pentax has either dropped or never made the ultra-wide 25mm and 28-45mm zoom for the 645 system, ultra-wide primes for the K1, as well as super tele lenses for FX and 645 digital cameras. That all super telephoto lenses - lenses over 500mm in focal length by most definitions- have to cost $10-15K is not supported, with many current zooms that go to 600mm (Tamron and Sigma), the Sigma 300-800mm, the Sigma 800mm, etc. Since Tamron likely makes the 15-30mm, 24-70mm, and maybe the current 70-200mm for Pentax shows that the possibility exists for at least a very reasonable, up to 600mm zoom lens. Lastly, please let me know, when and where I am telling people to move to other systems and ditch Pentax, and also please answer the question - who is making the attempt to sound knowledgeable by introducing irrelevant information, conjecture, and speculative sales data that that makes no difference to most people...
02-10-2018, 08:11 PM - 3 Likes   #237
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FYI, the D FA*70~200/2.8 is a 100% Pentax designed / manufactured lens, as are all the coming D FA* lenses and all prior * lenses (with the possible exceptions of the DA*16~50 and DA*50~135).

And BTW, the thread at DPR where the Tamron / Tokina vs. Pentax designs is discussed, which is annotated with Pentax patent numbers, is infantile. Those who refuse to accord Pentax it’s due are clearly using Alinskyite misinformation tactics - to what end? What value is there ‘Othering’ Pentax?

I truly cannot abide DPR.

Last edited by monochrome; 02-11-2018 at 05:43 AM.
02-10-2018, 08:42 PM - 1 Like   #238
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QuoteOriginally posted by mtgmansf Quote
That all super telephoto lenses - lenses over 500mm in focal length by most definitions- have to cost $10-15K is not supported, with many current zooms that go to 600mm (Tamron and Sigma), the Sigma 300-800mm, the Sigma 800mm,
We will more than likely see some prime lenses in the 400mm , 500mm and 600mm from Nikon that will be under $6000 in the next coming years
02-10-2018, 10:13 PM   #239
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
FYI, the D FA*70~200/2.8 is a 100% Pentax designed / manufactured lens, as are all the coming D FA* lenses and all prior * lenses (with the possible exceptions of the DA*16~50 and DA*50~135).

And BTW, the thread at DPR where the Tamron / Tokina vs. Pentax designs, which is annotated with Pentax patent numbers is infantile. Those who refuse to accord Pentax it’s due are clearly using Alinskyite misinformation tactics - to what end? What value is there ‘Othering’ Pentax?

I truly cannot abide DPR.
are we sure the upcoming DFA primes are not Tokina Vista Primes?
02-10-2018, 10:36 PM   #240
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ascencio Quote
are we sure the upcoming DFA primes are not Tokina Vista Primes?
?

Big manual focus cinema lenses?

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