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02-12-2018, 03:55 AM   #271
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Pentax are in a tricky position. Ricoh will never give them the funds to build a true D500 or X-H1 class of camera. Even if they did, the result would cost around 2K at retail, a lot more than many who want “flagship” would be prepared to pay, in reality. There’s a degree of fantasy football going on here.

Maybe the best chance for Pentax is to take the next generation of sensors and processors, which will be a lot faster and more capable than ones now 3-5 years old, and wrap them in a more K3-like body. They can add as many features as they can afford while keeping the price to a low enough level for the majority of Pentax customers. The result still won’t be D500 but it will be a little closer to it than a KP, especially in terms of ergos and battery.

Bear in mind that APS-C probably isn’t as nearly sexy as it was. Mirrorless cameras are eating their way through what is left of the sector after the declines of recent years. And Pentax have to put their modest funds where they can secure the best return. They are likely correct to think that is FF and other high-value items. APS-C is likely going through an awkward change-over period as mirrorless cameras come to the fore. There will be even more of those in a year’s time. Pentax are right to be a little diffident about pouring money into the sector. The world’s changed.
Hey, lately I disagree with many of your posts (just for context) but couldn't agree more with this one.
100%.

02-12-2018, 06:38 AM - 1 Like   #272
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
They are likely correct to think that is FF and other high-value items. APS-C is likely going through an awkward change-over period as mirrorless cameras come to the fore. There will be even more of those in a year’s time. Pentax are right to be a little diffident about pouring money into the sector. The world’s changed.
You guys live in such a different world than I do. I often look at my K-1 and 300 +1.4x combination and am just completely disappointed. You get so much more with APS-c. On APS-c my favourite lens is my 18-135. Not only is the K-1 heavier, I have to carry two lenses to get the same capability. I do have an FA 28-200 for the K-1 , but the 28-200 on a K-1 is not as good as the 18-135 on the K-3.

As for 42 MP compared to 36 MP, there's just not a lot of difference there. All the K-3II needs is a little bit faster FPS, 9 or 10, a 60-70 shot buffer and predictive AF. Push it up into the range of higher performance sports/action cameras and Pentax has a pretty complete system. The D750 type camera, they should just skip that altogether. It's a good "I only want to own one camera and I want a full frame" type camera. But it's heavily compromised in that it doesn't do anything really well. It's mystifies me that someone would give up APS-c for it. But then I go back and forth between FF and APS_c all the time. using each for what they are best at. Personally, I wouldn't give up my K-3 for a D750, but hey, that's just me.

Personally I'd be willing to pay the K-1 price for a K-3ii+ if it's more action oriented. There's no reason an action-oriented K-3 can't pull in as much revenue as a K-1. Especially since there's pretty much a full lens line up for APS-c.

As for Pentax needing long glass, buy a DA 560 and find out if it meets your needs. If it doesn't start talking ƒ4 glass, long glass etc. There is an option. Pentax avoided the heavy weight of such lenses by going to a telescope type design. It's not like there is nothing. Personally, would i try the DA 560 before going to a 600/f4? Absolutely.

I have a 300 2.8, which I usually shoot at ƒ8 for DoF. The 560 with 1.4 is a pretty compelling set up for those who want reach, even though people go on forever about Pentax not having long glass.

Last edited by normhead; 02-12-2018 at 12:28 PM.
02-12-2018, 08:50 AM   #273
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Norm, you seem to have a big beef with the D750 specifically and I cant figure out why ... I’m not sure where you get this idea that it tries to be something in between a APSC and FF camera, it is not a “FF Type camera”... It is a full frame camera, period, and it does full frame camera stuff very well.

There are reasons to go full frame (whether Pentax or other system), there are reasons to go crop, many people have both because they both excel at different areas since crop gives you more reach on your lenses (which is super helpful) and full frame does better at low light, wide angles, and low depth of field shots. I don’t know what gives you the idea that any FF camera is a compromise between other FF and Crop cameras? They are just different tools that work best at different things. Only cameras that I see people say are a compromise or dual duty are those FF cameras with very high MP counts that can still get a decent MP count when runnning in crop mode.

As for the new K-3iii I agree with you and think there are a lot of people here who, like you, would pay a premium for a crop camera replacement that incorporates more action features. I agree that properly spec’d and marketed it could do as well as K-1... I was hoping one would come along, I’d actually still like to see it.
02-12-2018, 09:04 AM   #274
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The Pentax 560mm is currently discounted in several places for $1000 off, which a great! However, still paying $4000 for a lens that cannot be used for FX is a serious compromise, especially if Pentax is no longer is updating/improving their DX cameras. I would be very interested to see some small bird and moon pictures taken with the 560mm with the 1.4x converter though...(fx equivalent of 1176mm!). About an updated k1 mk11, maybe because of no more 36mpx sensor- using Sony's calculation for the dx crop of their 42mpx sensor yields approx. an 18mpx crop which is O.K, but you still have to carry around the bigger camera and you still have less resolution than with the K3. Maybe Pentax just needs to modify and update the 560mm and maybe - for longer reach on FX - add a new designated converter to achieve an FX image circle and more than 560mm for FX?


Last edited by mtgmansf; 02-12-2018 at 09:28 AM. Reason: addition...
02-12-2018, 09:14 AM - 2 Likes   #275
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A lens that cannot be used for FX? Why, because FX is a Nikon designation, and the lens doesn't have an F mount?
The DA 560mm f/5.6 is a FF lens.
02-12-2018, 12:19 PM   #276
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QuoteOriginally posted by mtgmansf Quote
The Pentax 560mm is currently discounted in several places for $1000 off, which a great! However, still paying $4000 for a lens that cannot be used for FX is a serious compromise, especially if Pentax is no longer is updating/improving their DX cameras. I would be very interested to see some small bird and moon pictures taken with the 560mm with the 1.4x converter though...(fx equivalent of 1176mm!). About an updated k1 mk11, maybe because of no more 36mpx sensor- using Sony's calculation for the dx crop of their 42mpx sensor yields approx. an 18mpx crop which is O.K, but you still have to carry around the bigger camera and you still have less resolution than with the K3. Maybe Pentax just needs to modify and update the 560mm and maybe - for longer reach on FX - add a new designated converter to achieve an FX image circle and more than 560mm for FX?
Yep DA560 is FF compatible and that's Ricoh's own words.
02-12-2018, 12:28 PM   #277
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
You guys live in such a different world than I do. I often look at my K-1 and 300 +1.4x combination and am just completely disappointed. You get so much more with APS-c. On APS-c my favourite lens is my 18-135. Not only is the K-1 heavier, I have to carry two lenses to get the same capability. I do have an FA 28-200 for the K-1 , but the 28-200 on a K-1 is not as good as the 18-135 on the K-3.

As for 42 MP compared to 36 MP, there's just not a lot of difference there. All the K-3II needs is a little bit faster FPS, 9 or 10, a 60-70 shot buffer and predictive AF. Push it up into the range of higher performance sports/action cameras and Pentax has a pretty complete system. The D750 type camera, they should just skip that altogether.It's a good "I only want to own one camera and I want a full frame" type camera. But it's heavily compromised in that it doesn't do anything really well. It's mystifies me that someone would give up APS-c for it. But then I go back and forth between FF and APS_c all the time. using each for what they are best at. Personally, I wouldn't give up my K-3 for a D750, but hey, that's just me.

Personally I'd be willing to pay the K-1 price for a K-3ii+ if it's more action oriented. There's no reason an action-oriented K-3 can't pull in as much revenue as a K-1. Especially since there's pretty much a full lens line up for APS-c.

As for Pentax needing long glass, buy a DA 560 and find out if it meets your needs. If it doesn't start talking ƒ4 glass, long glass etc. There is an option. Pentax avoided the heavy weight of such lenses by going to a telescope type design. It's not like there is nothing. Personally, would i try the DA 560 before going to a 600/f4? Absolutely.

I have a 300 2.8, which I usually shoot at ƒ8 for DoF. The 560 with 1.4 is a pretty compelling set up for those who want reach, even though people go on forever about Pentax not having long glass.
Other than the fact you misquoted (text by mecrox I believe not by me), we just have different interests.
I don't care a iota about reach excpet if it's free (which it never is).
I do not grab my Dslr now but exception, my GR does fine for what my phone won't do.
So a K-1 (or K-1 II whatever) will be a lst update for yeaaars to come. 'cos I've got quite a number of old very good K/M lenses and I want ot use them as such.
Everything else is bonus. I'll grab a couple good old FF AF lenses for times I need AF and that's it.
If my wife doesn't want my K-5; well, what my wife don't use on her K100D I'll sell (DA mostly I mean).

It does NOT mean I don't hear you and understand you.
What isn't clear from Asahiman is the following, IMO of course: Yes RI will concentrate on FF then 645 range of products then APS.
But it doesn't mean a flagship APS will wait for 645 lenses range to be done with. Just not right now.
Besides, we might want to check K-1 II first and see what it may (or not) bring to the table for APS users.
02-12-2018, 12:39 PM   #278
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QuoteOriginally posted by nkull Quote
Norm, you seem to have a big beef with the D750 specifically and I cant figure out why ... I’m not sure where you get this idea that it tries to be something in between a APSC and FF camera, it is not a “FF Type camera”... It is a full frame camera, period, and it does full frame camera stuff very well.
Not true, what got me into the K-1 is the difference between the K-5 and K-3 and a D800/D810. The D750 doesn't do that thing. I want to see the detail in the reds on the IR clothes swatches as linked to above. The K-1 does them just fine, the D750 doesn't do them at all. An A9 does 24 MP and 22 FPS, a 1Dx does 22 and 15... For me the two things I want from an FF are more resolution or better low light and higher frame rate. That what would make up for the loss of resolution in the crop area, and needing longer lenses to get the same FoV.

K-3 and Tamron SP AF 300 2.8 LD [IF] and HD DA 1.4 TC, 420mm ƒ4.
400 ISO, ƒ8, AV

O.K. then, I went out for a bit today, the roof is totally off my blind and it's completely ineffective... I did manage a few shots.









A D750 on the above image would cost me 70% of my resolution. A K-3 puts 24 MP into the same area a D750 puts twelve, and yes, these are cropped images, so it matters. The D750 just doesn't do anything I want a camera to do. As I said, a good general purpose kind of camera but I really don't do a lot of "general camera" type stuff., but distinct disadvantages compared to both a K-3 and K-1. It has some advantages too, like 51,200 ISO images, which I really don't care about, and better AF. But on the above image, Pentax AF is more than adequate. Faster tracking AF would have no advantages, and besides, Pentax AF when not tracking is really fast, with a fast focusing lens.

For me, a K-3 is better than a D750 at what I'd want to use it for. A K-1 is in a different league altogether. It's not just the D750, it's the A7, the 6D are the same type of camera. When there are 24 MP APS_c sensors, it's kind of hard for me to understand why 24 MP FF is even a thing.

I have nothing against a D750, if given one I'd sell it and put the money towards something more specialized.

You tell me where a D750 would fit in. The K-3 is better for wildlife/birds etc where the extended reach is valuable, the K-1 is better for low light and resolution, the D750's only advantage is tracking AF. What do you see, I'm not seeing what makes you feel this is more than an average kind of camera? It's pretty good in a average camera kind of way.


Last edited by normhead; 02-12-2018 at 01:01 PM.
02-12-2018, 12:59 PM   #279
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Just throwing it out there that the 24MP FF sensor is WHY the D750 kicks butt so well with low noise and poor lighting conditions. Stuffing more MPs onto a sensor has some disadvantages, spreading them out over a larger area has some advantages. There is no arguement that the crop sensor has some great advantages for some types of photography, such as the beautiful pictures you just posted. There are plenty of good reasons why one might want a 24MP FF sensor though, lots of types of photography that don’t rely on cropping images. In these types of photography the 24MP FF sensor is an amazing product.
02-12-2018, 02:13 PM - 1 Like   #280
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Yep DA560 is FF compatible and that's Ricoh's own words.
They never told dealers about this fullframe compatibility. It's in shops as an aps-c lens. Same for 200mm and 300mm lenses.
02-12-2018, 02:43 PM - 5 Likes   #281
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QuoteOriginally posted by nkull Quote
Just throwing it out there that the 24MP FF sensor is WHY the D750 kicks butt so well with low noise and poor lighting conditions.
But it doesn't!! ....that is a Nikon guys fable. The D750 is 18th on the DxOMark's "sports" scale which measures performance under high ISO. 18th with a 24MB FF sensor - while the K-1 ranks 7th with a 36MB sensor.
02-12-2018, 02:48 PM   #282
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
They never told dealers about this fullframe compatibility. It's in shops as an aps-c lens. Same for 200mm and 300mm lenses.
Because it's not.
Too heavy vigneting.
02-12-2018, 02:50 PM - 1 Like   #283
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You're wrong, it is a FF lens.
We had this discussion in the past, several times - the amount of vignetting seen by Pentaxforums is not worse than for Canon and Nikon's expensive long lenses.

And by the way, those dealers should read the brochures
02-12-2018, 03:06 PM - 1 Like   #284
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
They never told dealers about this fullframe compatibility. It's in shops as an aps-c lens. Same for 200mm and 300mm lenses.
That's the beauty in Ricoh Imaging's naming conventions: even dealers get lost, not to mention their clients.

02-12-2018, 03:22 PM   #285
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QuoteOriginally posted by nkull Quote
Just throwing it out there that the 24MP FF sensor is WHY the D750 kicks butt so well with low noise and poor lighting conditions.
So you give up 70% of your good light resolution for better low light. Agreed, some people will go for that. Not me, but no doubt some people. For low light, the K-1 works great.

No demo, low light images? Maybe because they usually suck?
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