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02-13-2018, 11:36 AM   #331
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kenspo directly said - DIRECTLY said - the issue is production resource allocation. Pentax simply cannot build a K-1 Super, 645y and a new flagship APSc at the same time. Kenspo said directly - PENTAX HAS NOT abandoned APSc flagship.

Logically, they need the 350,000 - 500,000 flagship units to amortize the cost of new technologies that will appear in other cameras. I like my KP, but I don’t think it is selling 15,000 units / month.

It also may well be Ricoh is waiting for Sony to release APSc sensors with a technology Pentax is developing cameras for in the other formats, tech which will eventually appear in a full K-1 replacement and 645 replacement. It may well be continuing K-3ll isn’t possible for other reasons that aren’t evident, such as end of another component.

Let’s wait to hear what they say.


Last edited by monochrome; 02-13-2018 at 11:57 AM.
02-13-2018, 12:10 PM   #332
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
?? | RICOH IMAGING
Ricoh has only 5 DSLR in production

645Z
K-1
KP
K-70
K-S2
QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
GRII, WG-50, WG-40, WG-M2 and Q-S1

Rather narrow range of goods
Well I think sales of K-S2 is from existing stock and not current production. Wg-50, wg-40 and wg-m2 are out source products where they order a batch and sell it from the warehouse. I think Q-S1 is only left over stock.

Then there are lenses. Ofcourse the 24-70 and 15-30 are made by Tamron in a batch production. Some lenses are not available for order at the moment, so they are waiting for a new production run.

So yes a narrow line of products.
02-13-2018, 12:19 PM   #333
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BTW, looking at this list of available Sony sensors (*), I don't see why people are saying that a new APS-C camera is gated by new sensor availability. I assume IMX193 is the sensor in the K-3, with 8.7fps max frame rate. And there is the IMX271, a newer 24MP sensor but with 19fps performance already available. Presumably that's the sensor in cameras like the A6300 and A6500. Possibly, for reasons other than sensor availability, Ricoh have decided to not release a camera based on this sensor, but rather wait for the next iteration (or later, to use the language of the lens roadmap)...

(*) I forget who posted this link first a couple of days ago, sorry.

Last edited by Doundounba; 02-13-2018 at 12:29 PM.
02-13-2018, 12:58 PM - 2 Likes   #334
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
That's what is so bad about the current situation. The K-P is an excellent camera and has a lot going for it. And it's expensive like a K-3. But it lacks K-3 features I depend on. Did Pentax ditch the requirements that are important to me and just aren't telling me? Who knows?

...

Looking at models currently in production, I'd rather have the 8.3 FPS and 23 shot buffer, than the plusses for the K-P. That's pretty sad, when a shooter like me would buy a second (5 year old) K-3 before the most advanced model in current production.
The KP might be good from an IQ standpoint, but to summarize everything you're saying... it's not a professional level camera. It lacks dual SDs, adequate burst, adequate buffer, adequate battery life, comfortable ergonomics (for long shooting hours, not for carrying around downtown), adequate shutter assembly life, etc.

I'd love to talk to someone in Pentax's marketing department and ask them for a profile of their target buyer in general and also the KP's target buyer. If their APS-C target buyer is someone looking for slim body portability and light weight, they're barking up the wrong tree and have dire times ahead. A KP and even KPii isn't going to compete with an A6xxx in those areas - not even close. Casual and street shooters are going mirrorless if they want slim and light. Professional shooters' needs haven't changed and they aren't going to downgrade to KP level specs just because the RAW files have nicely baked in noise reduction. The KP is a really confusing camera that must have an absurdly specific (and thus tiny) target market I just can't wrap my mind around a profile for. Discontinuing the only pro level APS-C camera without a replacement is even more confusing. The K70 is such a solid entry-level offering... why not duplicate that high value model up the chain?

02-13-2018, 01:13 PM   #335
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Inacceptabile, why?
AFAIC and for the price.
02-13-2018, 01:13 PM   #336
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I think the KP is a one-off, retro design, never intended to replace anything. I think they had to stop everything while Ricoh evaluated what to do with Smart Vision last year, and now they’ve got themselves caught in a crowded production schedule. They had to say something about KP/K-3ll; or someone got rattled and made a pretty bad assumption about the rapid replacement of (near) professional APSc bodies by mirrorless technology. Either way they’re off-cycle.
02-13-2018, 01:14 PM   #337
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Blame me for the KP. I quote myself:
QuoteQuote:
Forum: Pentax News and Rumors 12-26-2016, 09:40 PM (Unread!)
rumored Pentax mirrorless camera - something between K1000 and K-01
Posted By MMVIII Replies: 480
Views: 41,126
I do agree on this kit. 20-40 and 70 ltd seems to be a perfect combination. I would wish for a DSLR which would be designed as the natural match for this. Sure, retro style might have grown old, but some trickling down of the design language from the K-1 to a new APS-C model optimized for compactness and durability could still stand up to the Fuji and Olympus mirrorless combinations. I know, k-3 is almost there, but with the k-1 there might be room for another, even smaller metal body. No compromise in ergonomy, and much better battery life than all mirrorless cousins, I would be in. I am sure the Oly and Fuji could be matched, in most dimensions. And I would not care for thickness, especially if looking at the combinations with lenses mounted.

Then my only concern would be in WA. The DA 15 has it's qualities, but for my purpose I would need minimal vignetting and maximally even sharpness across the field (stitching and 3d-modelling). Here a GR might still be a better addition, or in best case a successor with environmental protection.
That's where I am now. KP with limited zoom and PLM retractable WR telezoom. Additionally a GR II and a WA and Macro conversion lenses. Absolutely unbeatable set to take to my travels to Sudan and Egypt an be covered for almost all possibilities. Might add the new WA zoom and 100 macro in future, and the one or the other limited pancacke. That's the habitat the KP feels very comfortable within. It is what Pentax stands for me, since I have bought my first Mz-5n, which was the beginning of the limiteds.
02-13-2018, 01:41 PM   #338
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QuoteOriginally posted by MMVIII Quote
Blame me for the KP. I quote myself:


That's where I am now. KP with limited zoom and PLM retractable WR telezoom. Additionally a GR II and a WA and Macro conversion lenses. Absolutely unbeatable set to take to my travels to Sudan and Egypt an be covered for almost all possibilities. Might add the new WA zoom and 100 macro in future, and the one or the other limited pancacke. That's the habitat the KP feels very comfortable within. It is what Pentax stands for me, since I have bought my first Mz-5n, which was the beginning of the limiteds.
Without a doubt, that's the market - but how big is that market? People looking for those features... that are also already Pentax users... that also already own LTD series lens... that wouldn't just rather move systems to an A6000s series. That has to be like, what, fifteen people? It's nice that they made a camera that's perfect for die-hard, existing Pentax users, but from a business perspective, is that really the best use of R&D and manufacturing dollars? Maybe if you're a company rolling in money and capacity, and want to do something nice for your fans. For a company in this position though, it's baffling.

I did almost buy a KP myself, but the more I thought about it the less sense it made from a practicality standpoint. Yes, it's a minuscule amount smaller than the K3 and a bit lighter, but it's also larger and heavier than the K-S2 which is nearly half the price and the K70 which is still significantly cheaper and loses very little in specs. The retro look is actually what got me in the first place, because it's cool and different... but $900 for cool and different? Had to pass on that one. The K-S2 already makes a great travel cam that's smaller and lighter than the KP, cheaper (slightly less worrying about it), and doesn't give up too much in the way of image quality or meaningful features to achieve a good heft reduction.

Pentax has(had) a good thing going with value for the money. K70 absolutely destroys competition in its price range. K1 is one of the best FF values on the market. K3ii offered a better spec sheet than the Canikon equivalents on release, for less money, and has only gotten better as prices dropped. I got the K-S2 because it too originally blew away competitors at its price point. And then there's this KP thing that offers so little for so much.


Last edited by AyeYo; 02-13-2018 at 01:50 PM.
02-13-2018, 02:34 PM - 1 Like   #339
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QuoteOriginally posted by AyeYo Quote
... People looking for those features... that are also already Pentax users... that also already own LTD series lens... that wouldn't just rather move systems to an A6000s series. ...
Personally, I think if you stay with the same image format (APS-C), you can't just compare bodies, weight-wise, to see how much weight you'd save by going from Pentax to another brand. The lenses for the other brand will often be as heavy or even heavier than the Pentax equivalents, except for some corner cases (like people shooting with just a single prime near the registration distance of the lens mount they pick). You really need to compare for your specific use-case to see how things turn out. For example, you need a ~100mm 1:1 macro in your kit? In E-mount: Sony 90mm is 602g, Sigma 105mm is 726g and Samyang 100mm is 730g. The D-FA 100mm WR? 340g! That weight difference (262-290g) is about the same as the difference between a K-70 and an a6300 (284g). BTW, the trend in mirrorless has been towards heavier and heavier bodies, at least at the high end (a6000 < a6300 < a6500; X-T1 < X-T2 < X-H1; E-M5 < E-M1 < E-M1ii). Of course, there might be other reasons than weight to switch...

Nevertheless, I think for really significant weight savings, you need to go down a step in image format (APS-C -> m4/3s). But again check your particular use-case, including all lenses. Sometimes the existence of a particular lens might swing things one way or another...
02-13-2018, 02:48 PM - 1 Like   #340
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QuoteOriginally posted by AyeYo Quote
The KP might be good from an IQ standpoint, but to summarize everything you're saying... it's not a professional level camera. It lacks dual SDs, adequate burst, adequate buffer, adequate battery life, comfortable ergonomics (for long shooting hours, not for carrying around downtown), adequate shutter assembly life, etc.

I'd love to talk to someone in Pentax's marketing department and ask them for a profile of their target buyer in general and also the KP's target buyer. If their APS-C target buyer is someone looking for slim body portability and light weight, they're barking up the wrong tree and have dire times ahead. A KP and even KPii isn't going to compete with an A6xxx in those areas - not even close. Casual and street shooters are going mirrorless if they want slim and light. Professional shooters' needs haven't changed and they aren't going to downgrade to KP level specs just because the RAW files have nicely baked in noise reduction. The KP is a really confusing camera that must have an absurdly specific (and thus tiny) target market I just can't wrap my mind around a profile for. Discontinuing the only pro level APS-C camera without a replacement is even more confusing. The K70 is such a solid entry-level offering... why not duplicate that high value model up the chain?
The "slim" profile markets been stolen by M43 and Sony's mirrorless as you said. APS-C lenses are still big. That used to be a Pentax advantage a while ago. I agree, they are toast going after that.

APS-C needs to be a very strong marriage of performance (high iso/resolution vs iphone/M43) and value. Otherwise FF is very attractive as it's not much different in size for a DSLR.

KP and whatever K3xxx need to best the 7dii/D500/7500's out there which have really high performance. The sensor in the KP is really good, they just need AF and overall speed to back that up. Maybe grab some tricks that Olympis uses like Livebulb and Livecomp, Focus stacking in camera etc, as those are killer features on that platform.

Its a bit late for me as I already started to jump to Nikon but had a K3iii with near equivalent AF to a 7500/750 with KP sensor hit the market I would probably Stay in the Pentax ecosystem other than long telephoto's. They really are waiting too long and not giving current users some light at the end of the tunnel.

---------- Post added 02-13-2018 at 02:51 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Doundounba Quote
Personally, I think if you stay with the same image format (APS-C), you can't just compare bodies, weight-wise, to see how much weight you'd save by going from Pentax to another brand. The lenses for the other brand will often be as heavy or even heavier than the Pentax equivalents, except for some corner cases (like people shooting with just a single prime near the registration distance of the lens mount they pick). You really need to compare for your specific use-case to see how things turn out. For example, you need a ~100mm 1:1 macro in your kit? In E-mount: Sony 90mm is 602g, Sigma 105mm is 726g and Samyang 100mm is 730g. The D-FA 100mm WR? 340g! That weight difference (262-290g) is about the same as the difference between a K-70 and an a6300 (284g). BTW, the trend in mirrorless has been towards heavier and heavier bodies, at least at the high end (a6000 < a6300 < a6500; X-T1 < X-T2 < X-H1; E-M5 < E-M1 < E-M1ii). Of course, there might be other reasons than weight to switch...

Nevertheless, I think for really significant weight savings, you need to go down a step in image format (APS-C -> m4/3s). But again check your particular use-case, including all lenses. Sometimes the existence of a particular lens might swing things one way or another...
Yes, and with M43 the "pro" lenses and EM1 line are nearly as big as APS-C. If you stick to EM10/5 and the lighter plastic lenses (which are excellent) it's a massive size/weight savings at not a huge expense in image quality.

Competing with M43 for compact size is a losing battle for anything in APS-C, the sensors are really good as are the lens lineup.

Pentax needs to be the muscle car brand for image quality, keep dropping the sensors in of camera's costing twice as much to attract people who will make the compromise of having less lenses to pick and AF-C not being as high performance. That 1000-2000 dollar price point the K3ii was in now is flooded with FF options and very high performance APS-C so that's harder then ever.

Last edited by LeeRunge; 02-13-2018 at 02:58 PM.
02-13-2018, 03:24 PM   #341
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QuoteOriginally posted by AyeYo Quote
The KP might be good from an IQ standpoint, but to summarize everything you're saying... it's not a professional level camera. It lacks dual SDs, adequate burst, adequate buffer, adequate battery life, comfortable ergonomics (for long shooting hours, not for carrying around downtown), adequate shutter assembly life, etc.

I'd love to talk to someone in Pentax's marketing department and ask them for a profile of their target buyer in general and also the KP's target buyer. If their APS-C target buyer is someone looking for slim body portability and light weight, they're barking up the wrong tree and have dire times ahead. A KP and even KPii isn't going to compete with an A6xxx in those areas - not even close. Casual and street shooters are going mirrorless if they want slim and light. Professional shooters' needs haven't changed and they aren't going to downgrade to KP level specs just because the RAW files have nicely baked in noise reduction. The KP is a really confusing camera that must have an absurdly specific (and thus tiny) target market I just can't wrap my mind around a profile for. Discontinuing the only pro level APS-C camera without a replacement is even more confusing. The K70 is such a solid entry-level offering... why not duplicate that high value model up the chain?
Your final sentence is in dissonance with the rest of what you wrote. The KP is exactly that, that same high value model slightly up the chain.


And, yes, I plan to purchase a KP sometime. I like it much more than the other monsters in the lineup; I can imagine carrying it for hours, when carrying my K-30 for just a couple of hours is tiring, and I'm expecting its shutter to outlive me {I'm 70}.
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02-13-2018, 03:27 PM   #342
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QuoteOriginally posted by LeeRunge Quote
Pentax needs to be the muscle car brand for image quality, keep dropping the sensors in of camera's costing twice as much to attract people who will make the compromise of having less lenses to pick and AF-C not being as high performance.
I think that's the ticket. Other than people already owning K-mount film lenses, Pentax's biggest customers are likely people that actually put in the time to research camera systems and realize that Pentax gives them more for the money on both bodies and lenses. That's really the only competitive advantage they have and they threw it out the window with the KP. If they are making a K3iii, it just needs to be D7500 spec with AFC half as good and IBIS for $1100. Is that doable? Not sure.

---------- Post added 02-13-18 at 03:28 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Your final sentence is in dissonance with the rest of what you wrote. The KP is exactly that, that same high value model slightly up the chain.
,
How? The KP doesn't even out-spec the K3ii that costs $100 less. It doesn't out-spec a D7200 that costs $100 less. The KP is a really expensive K70 with removable grips.
02-13-2018, 03:37 PM   #343
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QuoteOriginally posted by LeeRunge Quote
The "slim" profile markets been stolen by M43 and Sony's mirrorless as you said. APS-C lenses are still big. That used to be a Pentax advantage a while ago. I agree, they are toast going after that.

APS-C needs to be a very strong marriage of performance (high iso/resolution vs iphone/M43) and value. Otherwise FF is very attractive as it's not much different in size for a DSLR.

KP and whatever K3xxx need to best the 7dii/D500/7500's out there which have really high performance. The sensor in the KP is really good, they just need AF and overall speed to back that up. Maybe grab some tricks that Olympis uses like Livebulb and Livecomp, Focus stacking in camera etc, as those are killer features on that platform.

Its a bit late for me as I already started to jump to Nikon but had a K3iii with near equivalent AF to a 7500/750 with KP sensor hit the market I would probably Stay in the Pentax ecosystem other than long telephoto's. They really are waiting too long and not giving current users some light at the end of the tunnel.
Pretty much the same goes for me. If Pentax had simply taken the 5-axis SR, new 24mp sensor, and had put efforts into SAFOX 13 with a denser layout and some good programming, I would have bought it at anything under 1500,-. They did have a few years to get it done. As it is, I will be most probably be migrating to Nikon, because as you say, there is little perspective. All the more because this Pentax K3III was generally expected, and it is hard to see the priority that Pentax is giving FF, even if logical from a certain point of view. Especially with the pace at which things are going. Should a high resolution FF camera come out, then I will consider going FF in crop mode. I highly doubt this though, because such a camera would be very expensive.


---------- Post added 02-13-2018 at 02:51 PM ----------



QuoteQuote:
Yes, and with M43 the "pro" lenses and EM1 line are nearly as big as APS-C. If you stick to EM10/5 and the lighter plastic lenses (which are excellent) it's a massive size/weight savings at not a huge expense in image quality.

Competing with M43 for compact size is a losing battle for anything in APS-C, the sensors are really good as are the lens lineup.

Pentax needs to be the muscle car brand for image quality, keep dropping the sensors in of camera's costing twice as much to attract people who will make the compromise of having less lenses to pick and AF-C not being as high performance. That 1000-2000 dollar price point the K3ii was in now is flooded with FF options and very high performance APS-C so that's harder then ever.

Last edited by Chris Mak; 02-13-2018 at 03:45 PM.
02-13-2018, 03:52 PM   #344
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QuoteOriginally posted by AyeYo Quote
I think that's the ticket. Other than people already owning K-mount film lenses, Pentax's biggest customers are likely people that actually put in the time to research camera systems and realize that Pentax gives them more for the money on both bodies and lenses. That's really the only competitive advantage they have and they threw it out the window with the KP. If they are making a K3iii, it just needs to be D7500 spec with AFC half as good and IBIS for $1100. Is that doable? Not sure.
Huh? The KP still uses all K-mount lenses. The KP finally puts the large and ugly T90 design hoisted on us by Canon behind and takes us back to Pentax's roots of svelte body!


QuoteOriginally posted by AyeYo Quote
How? The KP doesn't even out-spec the K3ii that costs $100 less. It doesn't out-spec a D7200 that costs $100 less. The KP is a really expensive K70 with removable grips.
So, you don't believe what is said about the KP's high ISO performance?? The K-70 has the same aperture control as my K-30; every day I hold my breath wondering if this is the day that will fail - I would go back to Canon rather than go through that again, this time with the K-70.
02-13-2018, 04:07 PM   #345
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QuoteOriginally posted by Chris Mak Quote
Pretty much the same goes for me. If Pentax had simply taken the 5-axis SR, new 24mp sensor, and had put efforts into SAFOX 13 with a denser layout and some good programming, I would have bought it at anything under 1500,-. They did have a few years to get it done. As it is, I will be most probably be migrating to Nikon, because as you say, there is little perspective. All the more because this Pentax K3III was generally expected, and it is hard to see the priority that Pentax is giving FF, even if logical from a certain point of view. Especially with the pace at which things are going. Should a high resolution FF camera come out, then I will consider going FF in crop mode. I highly doubt this though, because such a camera would be very expensive.


---------- Post added 02-13-2018 at 02:51 PM ----------


Pentax has/had so many loyal users in APS-C they shouldn't squander that.

As for FF they have a great camera in the K-1 but as an objective buyer it's tough to not look at the D810 at it's reduced price or the D850 and pick that instead with so many more lens options. Pentax can't just be the "landscape" guys, they'll lose that match in the long run. A D850 with 6 different wides to choose from, some of which cost almost a thousand dollars less than the 15-30 for Pentax while still being optically very good(Tokina 17-35) means that price difference is not that large or at all with the 810. This is the reality in the market that Pentax is up against. Sony's mirrorless are also attractive but still have less lenses or very expensive lenses. The battery's are also terrible lifewise on mirrorless and OVF still is better depending on the circumstance.

I went though all these things in my head before grabbing a D750 because it was less 1499 and acceptable in image quality for my needs giving me access to the cheaper telephoto's that Sigma and Tamron have, plus all those nice ART lenses etc for future purchase.
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