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02-13-2018, 04:20 PM   #346
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QuoteOriginally posted by LeeRunge Quote
Pentax has/had so many loyal users in APS-C they shouldn't squander that.

As for FF they have a great camera in the K-1 but as an objective buyer it's tough to not look at the D810 at it's reduced price or the D850 and pick that instead with so many more lens options. Pentax can't just be the "landscape" guys, they'll lose that match in the long run. A D850 with 6 different wides to choose from, some of which cost almost a thousand dollars less than the 15-30 for Pentax while still being optically very good(Tokina 17-35) means that price difference is not that large or at all with the 810. This is the reality in the market that Pentax is up against. Sony's mirrorless are also attractive but still have less lenses or very expensive lenses. The battery's are also terrible lifewise on mirrorless and OVF still is better depending on the circumstance.

I went though all these things in my head before grabbing a D750 because it was less 1499 and acceptable in image quality for my needs giving me access to the cheaper telephoto's that Sigma and Tamron have, plus all those nice ART lenses etc for future purchase.
Sometimes you do get what you pay for. The D750 trails the K-1 in each of the Dx0Mark tests, and has fewer pixels.

02-13-2018, 04:30 PM - 1 Like   #347
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Sometimes you do get what you pay for. The D750 trails the K-1 in each of the Dx0Mark tests, and has fewer pixels.
You get a better sensor in K-1 but it's irrelevant if 24mp is meeting your needs, would I want it sure, just not enough to sway the purchase for me personally. As for DR and ISO it's a tiny difference between the 24/36mp sensors, verified on DXO. It's not like the D750 is way down the list. No matter what you pay you also don't get the Tamron or Sigma 150-600 or the AF in the Nikon with Pentax, also a factor. Sensor size isn't everything in a camera.
02-13-2018, 05:27 PM - 1 Like   #348
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QuoteOriginally posted by AyeYo Quote
The KP might be good from an IQ standpoint, but to summarize everything you're saying... it's not a professional level camera. It lacks dual SDs, adequate burst, adequate buffer, adequate battery life, comfortable ergonomics (for long shooting hours, not for carrying around downtown), adequate shutter assembly life, etc.

I'd love to talk to someone in Pentax's marketing department and ask them for a profile of their target buyer in general and also the KP's target buyer. If their APS-C target buyer is someone looking for slim body portability and light weight, they're barking up the wrong tree and have dire times ahead. A KP and even KPii isn't going to compete with an A6xxx in those areas - not even close. Casual and street shooters are going mirrorless if they want slim and light. Professional shooters' needs haven't changed and they aren't going to downgrade to KP level specs just because the RAW files have nicely baked in noise reduction. The KP is a really confusing camera that must have an absurdly specific (and thus tiny) target market I just can't wrap my mind around a profile for. Discontinuing the only pro level APS-C camera without a replacement is even more confusing. The K70 is such a solid entry-level offering... why not duplicate that high value model up the chain?
For casual and street shooting I went even lighter and bought a RX100. Very happy with the purchase though zoom range is a bit limited... Needless to say I am not a professional!
02-13-2018, 05:31 PM - 3 Likes   #349
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QuoteOriginally posted by AyeYo Quote
I think that's the ticket. Other than people already owning K-mount film lenses, Pentax's biggest customers are likely people that actually put in the time to research camera systems and realize that Pentax gives them more for the money on both bodies and lenses. That's really the only competitive advantage they have and they threw it out the window with the KP. If they are making a K3iii, it just needs to be D7500 spec with AFC half as good and IBIS for $1100. Is that doable? Not sure.

---------- Post added 02-13-18 at 03:28 PM ----------



How? The KP doesn't even out-spec the K3ii that costs $100 less. It doesn't out-spec a D7200 that costs $100 less. The KP is a really expensive K70 with removable grips.
The KP offers pretty impressive image quality -- better than the K3 II in many situations. High iso is pretty impressive with it -- better than most other APS-C cameras out there.

02-13-2018, 06:41 PM   #350
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So, what killed the cow? Some will remember in an earlier post I equated the K3II to the cash cow that's been around so long with a still steady sales rate that you just keep pumping it until something breaks in the supply chain. Is it the sensor? Do we have anything other than speculation saying it really is a lack of sensor availability?

All quit interesting if the case, and have to wonder how this affects other manufacturers too. Obviously with the resources available to Pentax, it is much harder to deal with these types of changes and adapting new product and getting it to market.

16 days
02-13-2018, 07:04 PM   #351
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Norm was the one that mentioned the 600mm f4 with camera combination being roughly 10 grand and I repeated the comment defending. Then everyone comes out of the wood work to say that there are cheaper (and slower) long lenses out there. That's true. Pentax already has a 560mm f5.6 lens for 4000 dollars. I doubt they will work on a 600 f4 though due to cost and poor sales (I don't know how many DA 560s they sell right now, but I wouldn't think it is many).
My post has nothing to do with Norm
Please go back and look at the post I was commenting on.
02-13-2018, 07:09 PM   #352
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Who wants to bet the asahiman image is the real camera - that the K-3ll has been sunsetted because the big news is an APSc flagship - and they’re setting the table to ‘surprise’ everyone (and Pentax hasn’t said anything. We’ve done it all to ourselves. )
02-13-2018, 07:33 PM   #353
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QuoteOriginally posted by LeeRunge Quote
It's not like the D750 is way down the list. No matter what you pay you also don't get the Tamron or Sigma 150-600 or the AF in the Nikon with Pentax, also a factor. Sensor size isn't everything in a camera.
On DxO the score would indicate you shouldn't be able to tell the difference between the D750 and the K-1. But that's because DxO is so heavily weighted towards low light performance. But best case scenario a D750 is little better than a K-3.

D750 2900 lw/ph extinction at over 4000 lw/ph
Pentax K-3ii with Pixel shift 2900, 2750 without.
That's less than a 5% difference in resolution, or even with Pixel Shift.

The K-1 is 3450 lw/ph with Pixel shift. 3350 without. The K-1 is about 20 % more resolution than a D750 with Pixel Shift, 15% without.
The D750 is about the same as a K-3 with pixel shift or 9% difference without.

Th kicker though will be if when the K-3 replacement comes out, the accelerator cleans up the K-3ii image to D750 levels. It's quite possible that from 100-1600 ISO the K-3 replacement will be able to surpass or match the D750 where it is strongest. DxO hasn't rated any camera with he accelerator unit,

At 100 ISO the D750 image can't hold a candle to a K-1.
At 100 ISO the D750 is marginally better than the K-3, probably because the K-3ii is further away for the same image.

The D750 is decidedly better than the K-3 or K-1 at 3200 ISO, if you shoot in low light. The K-1 is the best camera in good light. IN good light the K-3 is only marginally worse than the D750. So in essence, the D750 is better at the worst images. IN good light you may as well have a K-3II, plus with a K-3ii a Pentax 150-450 is longer and gives you more subject resolution than a D750 with a Sigma 150-600.

So I definitely don't agree with your choice. A K-3ii which can match the D750 with pixels shift and is darn close without is around $800 now. $1500 for a D750 seems like a waste of money, it needs bigger more expensive glass and even really expensive long glass is better used on 24 MP APS_c. But, if all your shooting is done at high ISO it's pretty good looking camera. I am almost always able to take my images, even small birds where I have to keep the shutter speed up at 800 ISO or less.

At 1600 ISO or higher no Pentax matches the D750 in the red channel for detail. The camera does have it's strong points. At 100 ISO the D750 isn't close to K-1 resolution. But that's why we shoot 100 ISO whenever we can.

LeeRunge doesn't need resolution (or so he says), I don't need really high ISO performance. Each to his/her own.


Last edited by normhead; 02-13-2018 at 07:49 PM.
02-13-2018, 07:56 PM   #354
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Who wants to bet the asahiman image is the real camera - that the K-3ll has been sunsetted because the big news is an APSc flagship - and they’re setting the table to ‘surprise’ everyone (and Pentax hasn’t said anything. We’ve done it all to ourselves. )
I'll buy that.....no really I'll buy that as soon as it hits the market!!!

Larry
02-13-2018, 08:06 PM   #355
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Who wants to bet the asahiman image is the real camera - that the K-3ll has been sunsetted because the big news is an APSc flagship - and they’re setting the table to ‘surprise’ everyone (and Pentax hasn’t said anything. We’ve done it all to ourselves. )
Sounds like the classic bait and switch!
02-13-2018, 08:28 PM   #356
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Who wants to bet the asahiman image is the real camera - that the K-3ll has been sunsetted because the big news is an APSc flagship - and they’re setting the table to ‘surprise’ everyone (and Pentax hasn’t said anything. We’ve done it all to ourselves. )
It's all or nothing this year.
02-13-2018, 08:30 PM   #357
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QuoteOriginally posted by LeeRunge Quote
You get a better sensor in K-1 but it's irrelevant if 24mp is meeting your needs, would I want it sure, just not enough to sway the purchase for me personally. As for DR and ISO it's a tiny difference between the 24/36mp sensors, verified on DXO. It's not like the D750 is way down the list. No matter what you pay you also don't get the Tamron or Sigma 150-600 or the AF in the Nikon with Pentax, also a factor. Sensor size isn't everything in a camera.
Once 'meeting needs' justifies your choice of the D750, your choice of the D750 becomes irrelevant to this discussion because your needs isn't much of a standard in general, and all it provides is some kind of floor in this case.
02-13-2018, 08:30 PM   #358
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Who wants to bet the asahiman image is the real camera - that the K-3ll has been sunsetted because the big news is an APSc flagship - and they’re setting the table to ‘surprise’ everyone (and Pentax hasn’t said anything. We’ve done it all to ourselves. )
AsahiMan himself said that a new APS-C flagship wasn't near to ready yet. There's a lot of speculation over at DPReview, the most plausible to me is that it's a new APS-C mirrorless.

The worst thing is that he leaked the image, the big tease hasn't even started yet!
02-13-2018, 08:35 PM - 1 Like   #359
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QuoteOriginally posted by AyeYo Quote
The KP might be good from an IQ standpoint, but to summarize everything you're saying... it's not a professional level camera.
But the K-3ii really isn't a professional camera either, with its mediocre tracking AF and all those DA* lenses with slow AF. It's not comparable to the Canon 7dii or the Nikon D500. Rather, it's more in the class the Canon 80d or Nikon 7500, better in some ways (build quality, handling), worse in others (tracking AF). The KP is a camera that's the size of a Nikon or Canon entry level body but designed for serious photographers (far better controls and handling, far superior build quality, 14 bit Raw, 5-axis stabilization). Sure, you can get smaller with mirrorless, but what about those photographers who don't like EVFs? If you want a compact APS-C DSLR with an optical viewfinder designed for serious photographers and you don't require a large buffer, the KP is a very compelling camera. The fact that it's not seen as such, that the KP is grossly misunderstood camera, is a testament to Pentax/Ricoh's poor marketing. The vast majority of serious photographers don't require large buffers in a camera with mediocre tracking AF. But certainly there must be some photographers who would like a compact DSLR designed for advanced enthusiasts. I have run across Canon and Nikon APS-C DSLR users who bitterly lament that the only compact DSLRs in Canon and Nikon lineups are entry level cameras designed for newbies. The KP is right up their alley — if only they knew it.

QuoteOriginally posted by AyeYo Quote
The K70 is such a solid entry-level offering... why duplicate that high value model up the chain?
You could say the same about the DA 35 2.4. It's such a nice lens with such a high value, why do we need a DA 35 f2.8 Limited? But some of us paid several hundred dollars more to get the DA 35 Limited because of the extra bit of image quality of the limited lens (along with superior build quality and handling). That's just kind of the way it is with photography gear. At a certain point, you pay a lot more for incremental improvements. Before I would consider upgrading from my K-5iis, I wanted a Pentax DSLR that featured (1) 5-axis stabilization, like my Olympus E-M5ii; (2) accessory battery grip for use with my larger lenses; (3) comparable DR performance to my K-5iis; (4) improved ISO performance over my K-5iis; (5) improved AF over my K-5iis; (6) direct access to control ISO. The K-70 only checked two of these boxes, the K-3ii three of the boxes. The KP, however, checked all six.
02-13-2018, 09:13 PM - 1 Like   #360
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mark Ransom Quote
AsahiMan himself said that a new APS-C flagship wasn't near to ready yet. There's a lot of speculation over at DPReview, the most plausible to me is that it's a new APS-C mirrorless.

The worst thing is that he leaked the image, the big tease hasn't even started yet!
THAT would cause a disturance in The Force.

.:
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