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02-21-2018, 01:39 PM   #481
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QuoteOriginally posted by xandos Quote
There is though. When reading out the signal directly from the sensor, the electric signals do not come carrying tags 'I am noise' and 'I am signal'. While some of the noise might be easily recognizable as noise, a lot of it will not be. Many of the less sophisticated types of noise reduction use thing like convolutions with kernels (aka moving averages aka low-pass filtering) or techniques such as combinations of dilating/eroding, but these are techniques that do not necessarily retain all of the image details, because they attack the signal and the noise (using the fact that noise often has no or very weak correlations across the image, but so does anything with high local contrast). There are cases in which noise can be identified because it is static across mutliple pictures. Dark frame subtraction works for that. But any electronics (and any optical system) has to deal with many different noise types, amongst which there are types (such as shot noise) that cannot reliably be separated from the original image signal. The more sensitive our cameras get, the it is to have good SNR (signal-to-noise ratio). Pentax is usually very good at addressing this, which is one of my main reasons to like pentax (the other being small lenses and the trickery they like to perform with the shake reduction system: astrotracer, AA-simulator, pixel shift).

TLDR: It is never possible to get rid of all the noise in a signal without losing some of the signal, although for some special cases it is possible to get rid of some special types of noise.

PS: a good non-destructive way to reduce noise is by taking multiple images and averaging them. The noise should go down with the square root of the number of pictures taken (a factor of 2 for averaging 4 images, a factor of 4 with 16 images, etc). That is of course difficult (ie, impossible) to do on moving subjects.
Pixel shift does reduce noise -- quite a bit and motion correction algorithms take care of moving objects in the screen, but it is still somewhat limited in its usefulness from that standpoint.

As far as your comments about noise reduction. The question to me isn't whether the accelerator chip effects the overall signal. The question is if the Pentax solution (a) does a better job at noise reduction than 95 percent of us could do with software available to us (in my case it does) and (b) whether the signal reduction is noticeable? This second question is not asking if signal is effected, but whether you see blotchiness, over smoothing of images or any of the tell tale signs that noise reduction is in play. Personally, I don't see it and the results are excellent, but I can understand if just the idea of any noise reduction occurring in the background upsets you.

02-21-2018, 02:10 PM   #482
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Pixel shift does reduce noise -- quite a bit and motion correction algorithms take care of moving objects in the screen, but it is still somewhat limited in its usefulness from that standpoint.
Pixel shift is great, when it can be applied. It reduces noise in two ways I can discern: by taking 4 pictures, it does some amount of averaging on non-reproducible types of noise, and, more subtly, by doing it for the different color pixels it could to some extent reduce bad colour reconstruction due to the different sensitivities and nonlinearities of the different color pixels, although I think this second effect is probably already very carefully taken care of if normal images.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
As far as your comments about noise reduction. The question to me isn't whether the accelerator chip effects the overall signal. The question is if the Pentax solution (a) does a better job at noise reduction than 95 percent of us could do with software available to us (in my case it does) and (b) whether the signal reduction is noticeable? This second question is not asking if signal is effected, but whether you see blotchiness, over smoothing of images or any of the tell tale signs that noise reduction is in play. Personally, I don't see it and the results are excellent, but I can understand if just the idea of any noise reduction occurring in the background upsets you.
I was not particularly talking about the AU actually, but responding to the post I quoted that seemed to indicate that we can simply just have a total signal consisting of total = signal + noise, and then get the 'pure' signal by doing signal = total - noise. Which would be nice, but unfortunately life is not that easy.

Like most people here, I am very interested to find out what the AU does, and what type of algorithm it uses. It might be very difficult to find that out. I am also very interested in your (a) and (b) questions. As it is, I do not (yet) have any of the newer cameras, but one of the reasons I am stalking the forums is to see what people's experience is with the new accelerator unit, and if they perceive any loss of detail. In principle, an algorithm can be devised that recognizes noise as well as the human eye does, but such an algorithm would be much more complicated and computationally expensive than the very simple approaches I pointed out before. As far as I know, no existing algorithm so far gets close. It is very likely that the AU does do something non-trivial if it reduces noise without an easily observable loss of detail. I guess RAW comparisons of a K-3ii and a KP might be interesting to pixel-peep at.
02-21-2018, 07:01 PM   #483
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I just noticed on Adoramas wesite advertising the new K1-II that Ricoh states the new model "IS" the Flagship of the K series line ?

((**The K-1 Mark II was designed to be the flagship of the Pentax K-series lineup.**))

Does this mean we aren't getting a Flagship K-3III ?
With this news I went ahead and pre-ordered the new K-1 mkII and free grip ..... feeling confident K3iii is still a ways off if ever.
02-21-2018, 08:30 PM - 2 Likes   #484
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ronald Oakes Quote
I just noticed on Adoramas wesite advertising the new K1-II that Ricoh states the new model "IS" the Flagship of the K series line ?

((**The K-1 Mark II was designed to be the flagship of the Pentax K-series lineup.**))

Does this mean we aren't getting a Flagship K-3III ?
With this news I went ahead and pre-ordered the new K-1 mkII and free grip ..... feeling confident K3iii is still a ways off if ever.
Since the K-1 has been on the market it always has been THE flagship of the K series line regardless of any APS-C K series "flagship". Nothing has changed at all.

Larry

02-21-2018, 09:50 PM - 1 Like   #485
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ronald Oakes Quote
I just noticed on Adoramas wesite advertising the new K1-II that Ricoh states the new model "IS" the Flagship of the K series line ?

((**The K-1 Mark II was designed to be the flagship of the Pentax K-series lineup.**))

Does this mean we aren't getting a Flagship K-3III ?
With this news I went ahead and pre-ordered the new K-1 mkII and free grip ..... feeling confident K3iii is still a ways off if ever.
Obviously nobody knows, but maybe Pentax will announce the K-3iii almost immediately: a K1ii with the name changed and the firmware tweaked to allow (and enforce) crop-only mode. And suddenly, all our questions would be answered. After all Nikon dropped the pixel count on their new crop bodies, so this would be keeping with the theme.
02-22-2018, 07:59 AM   #486
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ronald Oakes Quote
Does this mean we aren't getting a Flagship K-3III ?
With this news I went ahead and pre-ordered the new K-1 mkII and free grip ..... feeling confident K3iii is still a ways off if ever.
My guess is that we might hear something about it at CP+. It could possibly arrive around the time that the DA* 11-18mm lens arrives or maybe we get nothing until next year. It's a waiting game right now.
02-22-2018, 08:05 AM - 1 Like   #487
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QuoteOriginally posted by The Squirrel Mafia Quote
My guess is that we might hear something about it at CP+. It could possibly arrive around the time that the DA* 11-18mm lens arrives or maybe we get nothing until next year. It's a waiting game right now.
That is indeed the long term issue we're going to continue to see.. waiting to see if they ever make this camera.

I mean last year it was wait for CP+ then got nothing.. so wait for Summer (remember the French mag rumor of 6 or 7 months of K-3 II alongside KP then K-3 II successor?) and nothing again.. then wait for end of the year, still nothing...

Now it is a new year and we're repeating the cycle.. wait for CP+ for news, if nothing wait for summer, if nothing wait for Photokina, if nothing wait for next year CP+...

I applaud your patience though! (really, I do)
02-22-2018, 08:36 AM - 2 Likes   #488
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
I applaud your patience though! (really, I do)
I've been waiting since fall of 2016 for the K-3II replacement. What I've heard so far is that yes, there is one in the works, but that is about it. Outside of it supposedly being better than the Pentax KP, but not quite a Nikon D500 level of camera, there's not much else to go by. I'm just hoping for something that has much better AF performance than the current Pentax offerings. Something that can compete with the current Nikon D7500, Canon 80D, Sony A77 II, Sony A6500, Panasonic G85, & similar cameras.

I have been tempted by many other camera manufacturers & it's quite hard to resist. There have been many advancements in the mirrorless world, especially in the autofocus & video areas. Panasonic & Olympus have been doing some really neat stuff lately. I had given myself until November of this year to see if I stay with Pentax or move on, but if we get some kind of information about the K-3II replacement either at CP+ or later this year & if they need more time to make it better, I'll still be willing to wait some more. At least I'll definitely know that something good will be coming.

02-22-2018, 12:53 PM   #489
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
That is indeed the long term issue we're going to continue to see.. waiting to see if they ever make this camera.

I mean last year it was wait for CP+ then got nothing.. so wait for Summer (remember the French mag rumor of 6 or 7 months of K-3 II alongside KP then K-3 II successor?) and nothing again.. then wait for end of the year, still nothing...

Now it is a new year and we're repeating the cycle.. wait for CP+ for news, if nothing wait for summer, if nothing wait for Photokina, if nothing wait for next year CP+...

I applaud your patience though! (really, I do)
Better to take refuge in the obvious, than in "wishful thinking induced predictions".
Simply take a look at the usual APS-C high class body upgrade cycle, and early 2019 or fall 2019 glows up in the dark of unfullfilled anticipation.
Normally, it would be early 2019, but I assume fall 2019, because Pentax now has a handfull with FF in the portfolio.

Chris

---------- Post added 02-22-18 at 08:58 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by The Squirrel Mafia Quote
I've been waiting since fall of 2016 for the K-3II replacement. What I've heard so far is that yes, there is one in the works, but that is about it. Outside of it supposedly being better than the Pentax KP, but not quite a Nikon D500 level of camera, there's not much else to go by. I'm just hoping for something that has much better AF performance than the current Pentax offerings. Something that can compete with the current Nikon D7500, Canon 80D, Sony A77 II, Sony A6500, Panasonic G85, & similar cameras.

I have been tempted by many other camera manufacturers & it's quite hard to resist. There have been many advancements in the mirrorless world, especially in the autofocus & video areas. Panasonic & Olympus have been doing some really neat stuff lately. I had given myself until November of this year to see if I stay with Pentax or move on, but if we get some kind of information about the K-3II replacement either at CP+ or later this year & if they need more time to make it better, I'll still be willing to wait some more. At least I'll definitely know that something good will be coming.
From the Ricoh site K1mkII product page:

"Improved AF performance (Compared to K-1)

Thanks to the incorporation of the latest AF algorithm, the PENTAX K-1 Mark II assures high-speed autofocus operation, from the activation of the AF system to the capture of the subject in focus. It captures the subject's motion with great precision, even when the colors of the subject and the background are nearly identical. It also provides outstanding tracking performance with subjects which move laterally or vertically within the image field. The camera's overall AF performance has been upgraded to a new level compared with K-1."


I guess it's all about waiting for the reports of the K1mkII"s AF capabilities. Ricoh/Pentax seems to communicate that this is about a gap-closing (to Nikon and Canon) jump in performance, at least a performance that they can happily live with. Simply put: if it is still lightyears behind the competition, than there is little hope for the next APS-C release. On the other hand, if the improvements are indeed substantial, than there is much hope for the next APS-C release.

Chris

Last edited by Chris Mak; 02-22-2018 at 01:00 PM.
02-22-2018, 01:35 PM   #490
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QuoteOriginally posted by Chris Mak Quote
From the Ricoh site K1mkII product page:

"Improved AF performance (Compared to K-1)

Thanks to the incorporation of the latest AF algorithm, the PENTAX K-1 Mark II assures high-speed autofocus operation, from the activation of the AF system to the capture of the subject in focus. It captures the subject's motion with great precision, even when the colors of the subject and the background are nearly identical. It also provides outstanding tracking performance with subjects which move laterally or vertically within the image field. The camera's overall AF performance has been upgraded to a new level compared with K-1."

I guess it's all about waiting for the reports of the K1mkII"s AF capabilities. Ricoh/Pentax seems to communicate that this is about a gap-closing (to Nikon and Canon) jump in performance, at least a performance that they can happily live with. Simply put: if it is still lightyears behind the competition, than there is little hope for the next APS-C release. On the other hand, if the improvements are indeed substantial, than there is much hope for the next APS-C release.

Chris
We'll see what happens with this one. The guys at DPReview are extremely critical of AF performance in cameras, so they'll probably put the K-1II's AF perforamnce to the test as soon as they can. I still don't think the tracking performance is going to be as good as the Nikon D7200, but I'll be damned if it is. Hahaha!

https://www.youtube.com/embed/yL5jSEFtWa0?controls=1

^ They even have a video of it. I guess we'll find out soon enough how much effort they put into the AF algorithms. At least they're acknowledging the AF performance this time around.
02-23-2018, 07:39 AM   #491
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ronald Oakes Quote
I just noticed on Adoramas wesite advertising the new K1-II that Ricoh states the new model "IS" the Flagship of the K series line ?

((**The K-1 Mark II was designed to be the flagship of the Pentax K-series lineup.**))

Does this mean we aren't getting a Flagship K-3III ?
With this news I went ahead and pre-ordered the new K-1 mkII and free grip ..... feeling confident K3iii is still a ways off if ever.
To me this was obvious as soon as the KP was introduced. The K-1 was the flagship camera, so Pentax didn't feel a need to make another flagship. The people who wanted an upgrade for their K-3ii would be happy with the K-1.

I think the reaction to the KP took them by surprise, and given their stated intention to produce up-market equipment they probably immediately started a new APS-C flagship project. But it takes time for these things to come together.
02-23-2018, 09:15 AM   #492
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Reading all the relevant threads regularly.

I started 2006 in the APS-C with K-10, then K-20, K-7, K-5 , K-3 with a bunch of Pentax and some Sigma lenses.
I then stopped buying further lenses 2016 in absence of the K-3 successor. (call it "stop of further investment")
Instead they came up with the KP, which nobody had asked for. (same story with the K-1: who asked for a K-1 II ?)

In case they continue to neglect customers requests and do not announce on CP+ a firm commitment to show up
with a release date for the K-3 successor, I will not continue waiting. Guess then it's high time for me to switch to another
System, f.e. mirrorless.
I will never switch to FF (Pentax or others), that's for sure.
02-23-2018, 10:38 AM   #493
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QuoteOriginally posted by vAsberg Quote
Guess then it's high time for me to switch to another System, f.e. mirrorless.
It is wonderful that we have so many choices these days. I am a little confused though, if you want a K-3 replacement why not just buy the newest Nikon DSLR, like the D7500? Going mirrorless seems to be quite a change though I suppose you could continue to use your lens investment with an adapter.

Oh, well at least we have choices. Best of luck to you.
02-23-2018, 10:55 AM - 1 Like   #494
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mark Ransom Quote
The people who wanted an upgrade for their K-3ii would be happy with the K-1.
Surely you jest,
(And yes I called you Shirley.)

What I like about my K-3. adequate but barely... 8 FPS, K-1 -4 FPS, ridiculous for wildlife and action
K-3 - 23 shot buffer in burst mode K-1 the manual says up to 17 but in practice it seems more like 6 or 7.
Field of View... your 300mm lens on your K-3 now has a 200mm field of view on your K-1

No one in their right mind who takes advantage of the K-3's action features is happy with a K-1. Every now and then I put the K-1 on the 300 and 1.7 just to see what I can get, but I invariably find it so slow and the buffer so shallow, that I take it off within a few minutes.

Last edited by normhead; 02-23-2018 at 11:17 AM.
02-23-2018, 11:09 AM   #495
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^^ - yep, what Norm said. The only time I reach for my K-1 while birding etc. is when the light is low, otherwise, it's K3II all the way.
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