[Rondec]

Who's trashing it? In my short time on this forum I've quickly identified two groups of people: 1. Pentax can do no wrong and everything they produce is the best thing ever, 2. The realists.

Being a realist isn't "trashing" the brand. Having an unrealistic view of the brand's capabilities is even less beneficial.

I really don't see this. I see two groups of people: those who are overly pessimistic and those who try to counter that cloud of gloom by pointing out the bright spots in the Pentax Multiverse. Unfortunately, those who are obsessed with gloom tend to believe that anyone who chooses to look on the positive points is either out of touch with reality, a fanboy, or unable to see the negative.

I, personally, don't see much point in emphasizing the negative -- particularly not as it seems to be brought up regularly without my help. I can see the negatives too, but they don't bother me too much. My gear continues to work pretty well and if Pentax brings out a camera that I don't need then I have just saved a little bit of money.

In the end, the sun will rise again, both on the pessimists and the optimists.

[jatrax]

Who's trashing it? In my short time on this forum I've quickly identified two groups of people: 1. Pentax can do no wrong and everything they produce is the best thing ever, 2. The realists.

I believe you have that wrong. Close. But wrong. I would suggest that the two groups are: 1. Pentax can do no right and everything Pentax does is intended as a personal affront to the poster. 2. Realists

For a long time there was some suspicion that the bulk of those in group 1 were actually paid trolls supported by the Sony marketing department. Of course no real evidence of that was ever discovered so perhaps it was only a rumor.

I am firmly in the realist group and if you would bother to glance at more than one or two of my posts I think you would find I have been very critical of Pentax and Ricoh when it is deserved. But I tend to object when posters make completely unsubstantiated claims in an effort to convince the public that something is or is not happening that would be detrimental to Pentax. I welcome any discussion where there are actual facts involved, but when rumors are stated as facts and used to 'trash' something I do object. Not to the rumor or even the trashing, but to the use of rumor as fact. Dare I mention the term "Fake News"? Which by the way is not new, the term "Big Lie" was actually coined by Hitler in 1925 as a valid propaganda technique. It is even easier on the internet. Say "Pentax is abandoning APS-C" enough times and with absolute certainty and people will start to believe it. Unless others stand up to the propagandists and demand facts.

[reh321]

Who's trashing it? In my short time on this forum I've quickly identified two groups of people: 1. Pentax can do no wrong and everything they produce is the best thing ever, 2. The realists.

Being a realist isn't "trashing" the brand. Having an unrealistic view of the brand's capabilities is even less beneficial.

The true "realists" are those who recognize who Pentax is. If you want "bleeding edge", then you want Sony. Canon is more conservative, then Nikon. Pentax is the conservative of the lot .... and I expect them to remain that way. You can see that in the last three in how they approached AF.

In 1979 I purchased my first SLR, a Pentax ME/SE, because of the company's reputation. I went through two cameras in the next sixteen years. In 1995 I got a Canon because I liked their approach to AF better. I went through four cameras in the next twenty years, including two Rebels in the last seven-½ years; each of those Rebels had intermittent processor issues and eventually died, so in 2015 I switched back to Pentax. Despite the K-30's reputation for aperture control issues, I already have twice as much full-capability service from it as I got from my last Rebel, and the known weakness would leave it useable in some fashion.

I have been disappointed by Pentax - I had hoped they would continue the "Q", but when the market they saw for it died, they stopped developing them. Likewise, they have a vision of the market for their DSLR cameras - "fast" doesn't seem to fit into that vision, so "fast" will happen only when it doesn't interfere with their vision. That is reality.






Last Saturday I went for a walk with my K-30 in a snow storm. I was conservative - I didn't zoom - but I came back with four or five pictures. I would have taken zero pictures with a Rebel, because it would have never left the house.

[thibs]

Very helpful article:
Justin Kruger, David Dunning: Unskilled and unaware of it. How difficulties in recognizing one’s own incompetence lead to inflated self-assessments. In: Journal of Personality and Social Psychology.

Exactly

[MJKoski]

The behavior you describe is NR doing it's thing surely?. Longer exposures will have more noise to subtract. Turn NR off and take a dark frame for subtraction later?

It is not long exposure NR here. By enabling LENR you double your exposure time using long exposures but this is max 2 second delay before camera can be used again. It kicks in somewhere near 30 second limit. Some kind of quick spatial filtering like Sony does which actually slows it down in similar manner.

[AyeYo]

The true "realists" are those who recognize who Pentax is. If you want "bleeding edge", then you want Sony. Canon is more conservative, then Nikon. Pentax is the conservative of the lot .... and I expect them to remain that way. You can see that in the last three in how they approached AF.

In 1979 I purchased my first SLR, a Pentax ME/SE, because of the company's reputation. I went through two cameras in the next sixteen years. In 1995 I got a Canon because I liked their approach to AF better. I went through four cameras in the next twenty years, including two Rebels in the last seven-½ years; each of those Rebels had intermittent processor issues and eventually died, so in 2015 I switched back to Pentax. Despite the K-30's reputation for aperture control issues, I already have twice as much full-capability service from it as I got from my last Rebel, and the known weakness would leave it useable in some fashion.

I have been disappointed by Pentax - I had hoped they would continue the "Q", but when the market they saw for it died, they stopped developing them. Likewise, they have a vision of the market for their DSLR cameras - "fast" doesn't seem to fit into that vision, so "fast" will happen only when it doesn't interfere with their vision. That is reality.






Last Saturday I went for a walk with my K-30 in a snow storm. I was conservative - I didn't zoom - but I came back with four or five pictures. I would have taken zero pictures with a Rebel, because it would have never left the house.

But I haven't seen anyone bashing the equipment. I've seen (rightly deserved) harsh criticism of some really stupid business moves by Ricoh.

I don't see anyone denying that Pentax builds high-quality, durable cameras that blow away competition in the same price range in these areas (and often in features too). That has nothing to do with pointing out what appears to be one business misstep after another.

Maybe the "Pentax can do no wrong" label isn't the right one. Maybe what it actually is, is an air of defensiveness that lashes out against legitimate and deserved criticism.

[reh321]

But I haven't seen anyone bashing the equipment. I've seen (rightly deserved) harsh criticism of some really stupid business moves by Ricoh.

I don't see anyone denying that Pentax builds high-quality, durable cameras that blow away competition in the same price range in these areas (and often in features too). That has nothing to do with pointing out what appears to be one business misstep after another.

Maybe the "Pentax can do no wrong" label isn't the right one. Maybe what it actually is, is an air of defensiveness that lashes out against legitimate and deserved criticism.

When I was first here, people were lashing out at Pentax's decision to put the GPS in instead of the Onboard Flash. At the time, I viewed the OBF as an amateur thing - all the point & shoot cameras have them, and the main use of them seems to be trying {futility} to light up a racetrack. Since then several other manufacturers have left the OBF off - I believe the jury is still out on this one.


I don't know why DFA lenses are being delayed; I'm guessing the engineers who develop lenses are different from those who develop bodies, so halting bodies wouldn't bring lenses out any faster. I speculated some time ago that the K-1 was originally conceived to placate those who were loudly saying "All I want is a camera that will allow me to use my old lenses as they were meant to be used!"; maybe Pentax believed them, and scheduled minimal DFA development. Most features of the K-1 were tried on a lesser body before they showed up on the K-1, which is why the accelerator would be showing up now; a week ago the question we were hearing was "What upgrade would be worth a 'mark ii' but not a whole new body?" .... we know now.


I don't know why a replacement for the K-3ii is being delayed - I believed six months ago that Pentax saw no reasons to have two 'flagship' cameras; perhaps that was true, and if they started six months ago, that could be why we are still waiting.


In short, I believe there is reasonable logic that could be behind the decisions we are seeing. Loudly denouncing them may make people feel better, but it just harms the brand's marketing, which makes Pentax less able to deliver the goods in the future.

[Kunzite]

This reminds me of:
"I've also had an argument with Mitica Dragomir, but without insults. He called me retard, I've called him tramp, but we didn't insult each other" - Gigi Becali, a Romanian "businessman".

Indeed, there is no Pentax bashing going on.

[jatrax]

In short, I believe there is reasonable logic that could be behind the decisions we are seeing.

Ricoh in my experience with the copier side has always seemed a bit of a 'plodder' nothing fancy just good solid equipment that works. They have been very successful with that and I suspect they see no reason to change that corporate culture because some folks on the internet want them to suddenly become cutting edge. The business decisions they make are logical and make sense to them at the time they make them.

I speculated some time ago that the K-1 was originally conceived to placate those who were loudly saying "All I want is a camera that will allow me to use my old lenses as they were meant to be used!"

I would agree with that speculation. I suspect corporate green lighted the K-1 because the Pentax folks made a passionate pitch to move forward with the FF camera. And I suspect they thought it would be a one off that would keep those users that wanted to use their old lenses happy. Then the K-1 sold far better than expectations which opened up budget for more development.

But budget, the economy, corporate politics, engineering bumps in the road, reliance on other suppliers for parts, changes in the exchange rate, licensing, patent issues, and a host of other things can change any decision or timeline. It is easy for people with no understanding of what it actually takes to run a company and develop and deliver a product to whine that their demands are not being met. It is not so easy to actually do something that delivers that product.

---------- Post added 02-15-18 at 12:16 PM ----------

Companies are in business to make money. Does anyone seriously think that if Ricoh could deliver a new lens or body profitably that they wouldn't do it just to make some of their user base mad?
If there is no K-3II replacement this spring then there is a sound business or engineering reason for that.
If there is no DFA 50mm or DFA 85mm lens this spring then there is a sound business or engineering reason for that.

It could be as simple as needing legal clearance for something that is patented or closely resembles some one else's patent.

[jpzk]

Maybe what it actually is, is an air of defensiveness that lashes out against legitimate and deserved criticism.

True enough ... a lot of people (here) sure do not like confrontation/arguments even they are, as you well mentioned, "legitimate ... criticism".

[Kunzite]

Critics believe they're doing legitimate criticism and that they're realistic. That doesn't make it so.

The moment you start misrepresenting others' position, you're neither.

[credos4u]

Maybe the "Pentax can do no wrong" label isn't the right one. Maybe what it actually is, is an air of defensiveness that lashes out against legitimate and deserved criticism.

AyeYo, AyeYo, ... ts ts ts... *shouldertappin*

You couldnt be more right. ... but c'mon... stating something like that in here ... what do you expect?
Why do you bother about those "usual suspects" that worship PENTAX as their very own golden calf !?

JUST DONT ANSWER TO THOSE PEOPLE DIRECTLY... their answers are always so tedious and the suggestion i want to give to you is this: if it is naggin on your nerves when you read those comments and you cant blind it out mentally, just put them on the good old IGNORE LIST

They will never understand that Ricoh or the PENTAX brand are NOWHERE near doomed
or NOWHERE near selling their cameras at self cost...
(who actually believes those self-cost production lies anyway? when did that came up again? ah ... t'was when sony pretended to do so with their PS3, that actually used faulty server PPC processors that where available 4 a penny and a dime... ROFL.... )(anybody heard about modern marketing? NO... LOL... didnt you already realize the problem of those guys? ... layin out financial results they dont understand, estimating sold unit numbers, no company really releases...)
They also tend to ignore that other brands offer dozens more of product(lines) that they are all maintinin, supporting and cultivating and still are alive...

It is the usual PENTAX-IS-DOOMED-Angst which makes them "duck and cover and never say a word." and they dont get away from it. arguing is useless.
if you try that to often, they tap the shoulder of some admin and your comment is kicked out faster as you can say "8fps burst rate should be standard" or even "4K attracts buyers"...
You could try from time to time by stating:
"When i see how PENTAX produces their cameras, i see they should be highly cost effective..."

but if you say:
"I mean the K-1 not even had USB 3.0 despite the K-3 had it... ... i guess the K-1s milbeaut chipset is the inciest upgrade possible from the K-3II ...
there is no PENTAX IS DOOMED.... and it doesnt make any sense to worry about something. You know that . I know that."
they may get angry.

And do you honestly think, you can change the minds of people who state things like...
"The true 'realists' are those who recognize who Pentax is.!"
or "two groups are: 1. Pentax can do no right and everything Pentax does is intended as a personal affront to the poster. 2. Realists"
*(if they want to use "realism" instead of idealism or opportunism they'll just do, no matter if right or wrong.)

... by makin car brand comparisons..? not a chance. i've seen people try that and they all failed... again, if you want to post your oppinion in here (so it maybe gets read by a RICOH-Imaging internal person)and avoid getting mad when reading the ever same comments on em, just ignore those answers or blind em out ... no other way.


... whatever in the world it would be, it takes to get those fanatics thinkin in a more progressive way and drop off their homely mind-constructs, so they also scream out loud to Ricoh-Imaging and say:
"Hey there!! We are long loyal customers and its really not the time for 5 year old chipsets ... we need better features...!"

One thing for sure will NOT accomplish it.
confronting them...
dont you see..
always the same reaction.

they throw you in a pit and say you feel personally affronted just because you want to let Ricoh-Imaging know, that it really hurts if you see something like this faked K-1II specsheet and no official denies it.
so good luck. have a good time on the forums.

[Kevin B123]

Pure trolling nonsense. Itallics, bold text different text sizes, incoherent disjointed sentences. Grow up, preferably somewhere else.
Sadly this happens around CP+.

[MMVIII]

@credos4u
Haha, well, "interesting" take, and I can not disagree, but neither agree on it.
What puzzles me is this sentence:

just because you want to let Ricoh-Imaging know

This is what I don't get. Why do you think that posting here is a way to communicate with Ricoh Imaging? I think this is what irritates so many long term members here. Why does anyone think that repeated posting of someones wishes and critisism will make you get heard by someone who really is in a position to decide something?
I'm honestly curious, because there have been discussions here from time to time if Pentax/Ricoh is "listening". There were times, when even representatives have been on this board officially, but unfortunately they have been put off by some harsh treatment of some persons (who eventually thought that they have not been heard enough, or, whatever)...

[normhead]

Maybe the "Pentax can do no wrong" label isn't the right one. Maybe what it actually is, is an air of defensiveness that lashes out against legitimate and deserved criticism.

Pentax can do no wrong. The information, their way of evaluating it, everything including the numbers they work from are unknown to us. People's evaluations of their business plans are always suspect, because they don't know what Pentax knows. It's just a fact of life.

Pentax is what it is. People make their decisions, buy what they think is right, then blame Pentax because it isn't what they want.

There is only one thing to say to this. "Do your research before you buy. If you don't, it's on you, not Pentax."

If Pentax hasn't released something you want before you bought, well Pentax has been slow with lens releases for years. This is nothing new. The Pentax of today is the same one I started going digital with 10 years go. Nothing has changed.

When I see a lot of these negative posts, I don't think "What's wrong with Pentax?", I think "What's wrong with this dude?"

Honestly, it is completely irritating to see people going on about things that are known deficiencies of Pentax. They are who they are. If you don't like it you're a fool for buying Pentax. And I shouldn't have to listen to the nonsense. Too many threads are ruined by people stating deficiencies every Pentax user is already aware is as if it were some great revelation that needs to be re-iterated over and over.

The old timers have heard it all before and are tired of it. The newcomers need to do a bit of research into what everyone else already knows before they start sounding off. Well they should have done it before they bought their gear. Small company, not a lot of new releases, holes in lens line-ups. Never state fo the art bodies. Every review website has this information. I have to ask what hole you crawled out of before you bought if you didn't know these things and think they are worth repeating on this website. It is a company that while not what many others are, you can still get along with if you buy what they have to offer.

How often do you think we want to hear people say "I made this decision but I can't live with it because Pentax isn't doing what I want."
The fact that some people cloak that by claiming they are just being critical of Pentax's business decisions, is just a dishonest way of saying that.
We may feel sorry for you, but ultimately, we don't care, with exception that you're just messing up the threads. That we care about.
And if you actually had the intelligence you ask yourself that question, you'd probably see where the problem lies and maybe not make the post. Hopefully.

But we know that's not going to happen. The insanity will continue. I've been making these posts for 10 years, nothing changes.

It's not defensiveness dude. It's "We are tired of this ____."

The "value brand" is of use only to the resourceful. Pentax isn't going to solve all your problems. You're going to have to improvise. Spend your time finding out how others solve your issue. Not tearing down the brand.. Don't waste people's time with your problem, and then say "that's not good enough for me", when someone comes up with a solution. That is truly irritating.