From Asahi man

**monochrome** · 02-11-2018, 06:09 AM

The last line of asahiman’s reply is important. Pentax has the most completely developed (but very old) APSc line in the business, they desperately need to flesh out the FF line and 645 (even older) is receiving new competition from cash-rich Fuji and Hassy (with Chinese capital).

If some outside party were to give them a few hundred million and a few years before they would earn a return, sure, they could R&D everything at once, build plants to make multiple lines at the same time, and gain volume and share. But they don’t have the money, so they’re doing what they can. At least they’re not abandoning APS.

Who has a few hundred million just laying around?

(China)

Last edited by monochrome; 02-11-2018 at 06:16 AM.

reh321 · 02-11-2018, 06:11 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by mannyquinto

Maybe RI though there would be a huge demand for the KP ( having the small form and retro color) hence the initial pricing. What they should have done was just to stay with two models: a high end and a bang for the buck model.

I don't have lots of money. I hardly ever remember to take burst of any length. I love the KP styling. I would be happier if it were even smaller, but I expect to be thrilled with KP when I do get it.

biz-engineer · 02-11-2018, 06:21 AM

Originally posted by Mistral75

From asahi man

Thanks for sharing. Asahi man statements are in line with my opinion.

**monochrome** · 02-11-2018, 06:26 AM

Originally posted by reh321

I don't have lots of money. I hardly ever remember to take burst of any length. I love the KP styling. I would be happier if it were even smaller, but I expect to be thrilled with KP when I do get it.

For my use K-1 is the flagship I use for most images; KP is the mid-range I use for walking around and snapshots. I sold my K-3 because I didn’t need two flagships. The original plan was to use the DA lenses in crop on K-1 (equivalent to K-5). Birders, likewise, could force K-1 to crop with long FF lenses (DA*300 or D FA 150~450) and have only a K-1. If the 42Mp BSI comes in a K-1 Super that’s 18Mp cropped by the camera.

What’s wrong with that?

Last edited by monochrome; 02-11-2018 at 10:37 AM.

biz-engineer · 02-11-2018, 06:30 AM

Originally posted by monochrome

Who has a few hundred million just laying around?

Developing a camera is not so expensive because it's not about designing VLSI chips, it's about assembling off the shelf components into a system and software. Typically it is similar to developing a vaccuum cleaner, washing machine , cooking robot etc. The problem is, the return on investment is not in the range of what's expected for venture capital, so it's rather self financed or bank financed. I'd be not far from the truth if I'd say developing a camera system these days costs something like $10M (excluding marketing costs), so to break even would need sale of 25 000 units for full frame and 50 000 units for apsc. The problem is more related to the cost of legacy and non-operational staff who are not directly related to a camera product, those SG&A are eating up the cash from pay side activities, especially is the case with old companies, freshly created companies don't have to pay for old stuff and bureaucracy. A company like RED can outperform the old Japanese conglomerate because old conglomerate drag some old stuff behind them, startups don't have the burden.

normhead · 02-11-2018, 06:47 AM

Originally posted by monochrome

Who has a few hundred million just laying around?

The 1%.

ogl · 02-11-2018, 06:48 AM - **1 Like**

How to raise money with FF only? APS-C are the biggest amount of sales...
I don't want to upgrade my K-5IIs to KP or K-3II. Need something really new in AF system at least.

biz-engineer · 02-11-2018, 06:50 AM

Originally posted by ogl

APS-C are the biggest amount of sales...

That was 5 years ago, but it's not the case anymore. Now the majority of sales for apsc are mirrorless or wildlife bodies such as D500 and 7DII. The wildlife segment for Pentax is very small.

---------- Post added 11-02-18 at 14:54 ----------

Originally posted by ogl

I don't want to upgrade my K-5IIs to KP or K-3II. Need something really new in AF system at least.

You are one customer, you are not the market. It's hard to justify a D500 like camera for Pentax for one customer.

**monochrome** · 02-11-2018, 07:03 AM

Venture Capital? Vacuum cleaners? Hoya already de-capitalized Pentax and lowered the compensation ratio. Ricoh already took the impairment charge. There is no legacy left.

China is where you sell It.

ogl · 02-11-2018, 07:04 AM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

That was 5 years ago, but it's not the case anymore. Now the majority of sales for apsc are mirrorless or wildlife bodies such as D500 and 7DII. The wildlife segment for Pentax is very small.

---------- Post added 11-02-18 at 14:54 ----------

You are one customer, you are not the market. It's hard to justify a D500 like camera for Pentax for one customer.

Not only me. At least 70% of Pentax users. Where is Pentax analogue of D500 and 7DII? Where is new mirrorless?
I don't understand what you mean. The most selling cameras of Ricoh are DSLR. It's fact.
You say about N, C and the manufacturers of mirrorless cameras.

Mirrorless APS-C cameras reached the peak in 2012 year (approx. 4 millions) and slowly down till 3.1 millions in 2016. No any growth at all.
The same with DSLR. But the sales of DSLR are fallen drastically.
DSLR's sales in 2016 is the same as in 2008 year. And only 2.8 times more than mirrorless cameras. DSLR's sales was 4 times higher than mirrorless in 2012 year (the best year for all history of digital cameras for DSLR and mirrorless).

**monochrome** · 02-11-2018, 07:07 AM

Originally posted by normhead

The 1%.

Not interested. They already have their 600/4’s

.:

Zygonyx · 02-11-2018, 07:35 AM

Exactly

biz-engineer · 02-11-2018, 08:40 AM

Originally posted by ogl

Not only me. At least 70% of Pentax users.

70% of Pentax users are doing wildlife with long lenses?

rangercarp · 02-11-2018, 08:42 AM - **2 Likes**

Current bestsellers on B&H: 1. K3II with grip 2. K1 3. K70 4. K1 with 28-105 5. K70 with 18-135 6. K3II 7. K70 silver 8. K70 with 18-55 9. K1 with 24-70 10. KP with 18-35 11. KP 12. K1 with 15-30 13. K70 silver with 18-135 and extras 14. K70 silver with 18-135 and more extras 15. KP black The next 6 a various KP kits.

I realize this is only one seller, and a very US-centric seller at that, but it does give us some evidence about what is selling. We can know a few things for certain: The K3II still sells, and APSc sales are still significant.

biz-engineer · 02-11-2018, 08:52 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by rangercarp

We can know a few things for certain: The K3II still sells, and APSc sales are still significant.

K3II was discontinued while making number one sales. We live in a strange world.

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02-11-2018, 06:09 AM	#76
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	The last line of asahiman’s reply is important. Pentax has the most completely developed (but very old) APSc line in the business, they desperately need to flesh out the FF line and 645 (even older) is receiving new competition from cash-rich Fuji and Hassy (with Chinese capital). If some outside party were to give them a few hundred million and a few years before they would earn a return, sure, they could R&D everything at once, build plants to make multiple lines at the same time, and gain volume and share. But they don’t have the money, so they’re doing what they can. At least they’re not abandoning APS. Who has a few hundred million just laying around? (China) Last edited by monochrome; 02-11-2018 at 06:16 AM.

02-11-2018, 06:11 AM - 1 Like	#77
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,179	Originally posted by mannyquinto Maybe RI though there would be a huge demand for the KP ( having the small form and retro color) hence the initial pricing. What they should have done was just to stay with two models: a high end and a bang for the buck model. I don't have lots of money. I hardly ever remember to take burst of any length. I love the KP styling. I would be happier if it were even smaller, but I expect to be thrilled with KP when I do get it.

02-11-2018, 06:21 AM	#78
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,231	Originally posted by Mistral75 From asahi man Thanks for sharing. Asahi man statements are in line with my opinion.

02-11-2018, 06:26 AM	#79
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by reh321 I don't have lots of money. I hardly ever remember to take burst of any length. I love the KP styling. I would be happier if it were even smaller, but I expect to be thrilled with KP when I do get it. For my use K-1 is the flagship I use for most images; KP is the mid-range I use for walking around and snapshots. I sold my K-3 because I didn’t need two flagships. The original plan was to use the DA lenses in crop on K-1 (equivalent to K-5). Birders, likewise, could force K-1 to crop with long FF lenses (DA300 or D FA 150~450) and have only a K-1. If the 42Mp BSI comes in a K-1 Super that’s 18Mp cropped by the camera. What’s wrong with that? Last edited by monochrome; 02-11-2018 at 10:37 AM.*

02-11-2018, 06:30 AM	#80
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,231	Originally posted by monochrome Who has a few hundred million just laying around? Developing a camera is not so expensive because it's not about designing VLSI chips, it's about assembling off the shelf components into a system and software. Typically it is similar to developing a vaccuum cleaner, washing machine , cooking robot etc. The problem is, the return on investment is not in the range of what's expected for venture capital, so it's rather self financed or bank financed. I'd be not far from the truth if I'd say developing a camera system these days costs something like $10M (excluding marketing costs), so to break even would need sale of 25 000 units for full frame and 50 000 units for apsc. The problem is more related to the cost of legacy and non-operational staff who are not directly related to a camera product, those SG&A are eating up the cash from pay side activities, especially is the case with old companies, freshly created companies don't have to pay for old stuff and bureaucracy. A company like RED can outperform the old Japanese conglomerate because old conglomerate drag some old stuff behind them, startups don't have the burden.

02-11-2018, 06:47 AM	#81
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by monochrome Who has a few hundred million just laying around? The 1%.

02-11-2018, 06:48 AM - 1 Like	#82
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	How to raise money with FF only? APS-C are the biggest amount of sales... I don't want to upgrade my K-5IIs to KP or K-3II. Need something really new in AF system at least.

02-11-2018, 06:50 AM	#83
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,231	Originally posted by ogl APS-C are the biggest amount of sales... That was 5 years ago, but it's not the case anymore. Now the majority of sales for apsc are mirrorless or wildlife bodies such as D500 and 7DII. The wildlife segment for Pentax is very small. ---------- Post added 11-02-18 at 14:54 ---------- Originally posted by ogl I don't want to upgrade my K-5IIs to KP or K-3II. Need something really new in AF system at least. You are one customer, you are not the market. It's hard to justify a D500 like camera for Pentax for one customer.

02-11-2018, 07:03 AM	#84
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Venture Capital? Vacuum cleaners? Hoya already de-capitalized Pentax and lowered the compensation ratio. Ricoh already took the impairment charge. There is no legacy left. China is where you sell It.

02-11-2018, 07:04 AM	#85
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by biz-engineer That was 5 years ago, but it's not the case anymore. Now the majority of sales for apsc are mirrorless or wildlife bodies such as D500 and 7DII. The wildlife segment for Pentax is very small. ---------- Post added 11-02-18 at 14:54 ---------- You are one customer, you are not the market. It's hard to justify a D500 like camera for Pentax for one customer. Not only me. At least 70% of Pentax users. Where is Pentax analogue of D500 and 7DII? Where is new mirrorless? I don't understand what you mean. The most selling cameras of Ricoh are DSLR. It's fact. You say about N, C and the manufacturers of mirrorless cameras. Mirrorless APS-C cameras reached the peak in 2012 year (approx. 4 millions) and slowly down till 3.1 millions in 2016. No any growth at all. The same with DSLR. But the sales of DSLR are fallen drastically. DSLR's sales in 2016 is the same as in 2008 year. And only 2.8 times more than mirrorless cameras. DSLR's sales was 4 times higher than mirrorless in 2012 year (the best year for all history of digital cameras for DSLR and mirrorless).

02-11-2018, 07:07 AM	#86
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by normhead The 1%. Not interested. They already have their 600/4’s .:

02-11-2018, 07:35 AM	#87
Zygonyx Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Ile de France Posts: 4,033	Exactly

02-11-2018, 08:40 AM	#88
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,231	Originally posted by ogl Not only me. At least 70% of Pentax users. 70% of Pentax users are doing wildlife with long lenses?

02-11-2018, 08:42 AM - 2 Likes	#89
rangercarp Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Southern Michigan Posts: 437	Current bestsellers on B&H: 1. K3II with grip 2. K1 3. K70 4. K1 with 28-105 5. K70 with 18-135 6. K3II 7. K70 silver 8. K70 with 18-55 9. K1 with 24-70 10. KP with 18-35 11. KP 12. K1 with 15-30 13. K70 silver with 18-135 and extras 14. K70 silver with 18-135 and more extras 15. KP black The next 6 a various KP kits. I realize this is only one seller, and a very US-centric seller at that, but it does give us some evidence about what is selling. We can know a few things for certain: The K3II still sells, and APSc sales are still significant.

02-11-2018, 08:52 AM - 2 Likes	#90
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,231	Originally posted by rangercarp We can know a few things for certain: The K3II still sells, and APSc sales are still significant. K3II was discontinued while making number one sales. We live in a strange world.