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02-16-2018, 07:26 AM   #226
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sandy Hancock Quote
Without being too scientific, I have been really impressed with the high ISO output from the KP.

There's something different going on....
The sample low light photos from the KP I've seen here have really struck me. To the point I have toyed with buying the KP. Trying to space out the camera bucks is actually the only thing holding me back. Saving them for the new DFA* 50, next generation of bodies when the come out etc., but depending on the timeline of the next crop release, I've been so struck by the KP low light performance that I might break down and snag one just to see. Might help with those little hummers I like to chase.

02-16-2018, 07:30 AM   #227
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Maybe we can hope that both the K3 successor and a update to the K-1 is coming out. Pentax has a conundrum, update the already great K-1 which is probably more profitable, the 645z which is it's flagship halo product, or the APS-C flagship which would have the most sales.
02-16-2018, 07:43 AM - 2 Likes   #228
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QuoteOriginally posted by Danas_Anis Quote
I kind of hoped Ricoh to be innovative company and bring out Pentax technologies from being old fart. Keeping my fingers crossed for these leaked specs to be all wrong except for the ISO part.
Sounds like the kind of person who should have never bought into Pentax. Pentax almost always uses tech that has aged long enough to have the price drop to a reasonable level. They are never going to be out front in terms of innovative technology. But they have been innovative. With pixels shift, SR, astrotracer, etc. They seem to manufacture their own SR mechanism and have seemed more than willing to max. out the software on it with innovative applications, that may soon extend to being able to tilt the sensor in combination with a tilt-shift lens. I think the problem here is not that Pentax is unexciting, because for macro guys like me, Pixel Shift is really exciting, it's that you aren't excited by the areas Pentax concentrates on.
02-16-2018, 07:48 AM   #229
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At the risk of sounding like a fanboy, I'm really not worried about Pentax and upcoming camera updates. I think we're going to see it occur across all lines, and I see no reason why Pentax will do anything but bring high end products to market. The "problem", if one chooses to have one, is timing, and the reality there is that most of us really can wait. With the exception of a few true professional scenarios, I don't think our existing camera and lens selection is holding us back.

02-16-2018, 08:01 AM - 2 Likes   #230
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I will say that generally speaking, Pentax isn't the brand for "gear heads." Sony is probably the best place for people focused on specs and churn of new products to go. I still see Pentax offering nice gear for reasonable prices -- photographic device for photographers, as it were, but their focus isn't now and has never been on having the highest specifications in the market and as more and more cameras are getting into the double digits in frame rates, that becomes more apparent.

Fortunately for Ricoh, most photographers don't actually "need" 20 frame per second.
02-16-2018, 08:06 AM - 1 Like   #231
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02-16-2018, 08:08 AM   #232
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
I can't see how it does anything other than bake RAW files, though (which I don't like).

Happy to be shown otherwise!
Unfortunately, people seem to have largely ignored the K-70 and KP - DxOMark hasn't even bothered to test them yet {compare to their quickness in getting to the D850 and the a7Rii}. These discussions should have occurred a year ago.
02-16-2018, 08:32 AM - 1 Like   #233
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QuoteOriginally posted by robjmitchell Quote
The Accellerator chip being added seems to function by correcting noise at the pixel level rather than hiding noise by smearing the data. Thatís why it can preserve dynamic range and detail, unlike noise reduction.
This sounds feasible. If, during dark times for the sensor - any time the shutter is closed - each pixel is measured as to its signal level (which would consist of its noise only), then this value is subtracted from the signal level during a capture, the result should be less noise in the resulting "processed" image file. All this would require some really fast electronics, but is not beyond what might be doable.

02-16-2018, 08:46 AM - 2 Likes   #234
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Fortunately for Ricoh, most photographers don't actually "need" 20 frame per second.
IN the video comparing the Sony A9 and the Nikon D4, despite all the hype, when using the tracking and full frame rate to shoot a runner, the 15 fps camera got the same image as the 22 FPS camera. At that point using the 22 FPS camera, you have more images to go through to get the same image. My guess is, frame rate after maybe 11-12 FPS is wasted most of the time and just causes more computer work. And the frame rate of a K-3 is pretty darn close to optimum, it just needs another little tweak to gt it up to 10. But honestly, of the shooters I am able to follow on facebook, who shoot beside me from time to time, none have ever captured an image at 15 FPS, I didn't capture just as good with 8 FPS. And because they are using high speed 20-24 MP bodies, when I get a good close shot and can switch to my K-1 instead of my K-3, my images can blow theirs out of the water.

I'm personally not convinced 22 FPS is something I would buy even were it the same price. I'm convinced 10 FPS is enough overkill to make sure you don't miss anything.

In one case the guy next to me with a 1Dx shot 1300 frames of an otter, I shot 400, and we both posted almost exactly the same image. I had to go through 400 images to post mine, he had to go through 1300. How is that a good thing?

He was shooting with $15,000 worth of gear. I was shooting with less than $5,000. A reasonable person would want to know, is that fair that I should be able to get an equivalent images with so much less expenditure on equipment? But , fair has nothing to do with it.

Last edited by normhead; 02-16-2018 at 08:53 AM.
02-16-2018, 09:08 AM   #235
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QuoteOriginally posted by lsimpkins Quote
This sounds feasible. If, during dark times for the sensor - any time the shutter is closed - each pixel is measured as to its signal level (which would consist of its noise only), then this value is subtracted from the signal level during a capture, the result should be less noise in the resulting "processed" image file. All this would require some really fast electronics, but is not beyond what might be doable.
This basically what DFS is (Dark Frame Substraction). The thing is, that technique usually takes a 'noise' picture at the same exposure time as the picture taken.
'cos it gets (did get) noisier with longer exposures.

Now it seems DFS is not used anymore or less so maybe sensors react differently.

So it is a good idea but I dunno if it is actually possible to implement or effective enough. iMO of course.
02-16-2018, 09:15 AM   #236
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
I can't see how it does anything other than bake RAW files, though (which I don't like).

Happy to be shown otherwise!
Its just a controller to handle noise better. I believe Pentax will never remove the natural looking noise cause until now the noise you get in film is still way better than digital. This is just innovation from R&D.
02-16-2018, 09:24 AM - 2 Likes   #237
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
This basically what DFS is (Dark Frame Substraction). The thing is, that technique usually takes a 'noise' picture at the same exposure time as the picture taken.
'cos it gets (did get) noisier with longer exposures.

Now it seems DFS is not used anymore or less so maybe sensors react differently.
If you turn on long exposure NR in any current camera this is exactly what happens: dark frame subtraction to cancel out the heat induced noise. Since in-camera-DFS is taking place directly after the shot to be corrected, it is technically the best way to do it. 10 minutes later completely different pixels could "glow".

I always use long exposure NR to avoid hot pixels and it works fine.

In camera also has the advantage of it being applied directly to raw data. Later in simple consumer software like LR/PS you might only do it on debayered bitmaps (dedicated astro software maybe has dedicated raw development processes).
02-16-2018, 09:33 AM   #238
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
This basically what DFS is (Dark Frame Subtraction). The thing is, that technique usually takes a 'noise' picture at the same exposure time as the picture taken.
'cos it gets (did get) noisier with longer exposures.

Now it seems DFS is not used anymore or less so maybe sensors react differently.

So it is a good idea but I dunno if it is actually possible to implement or effective enough. iMO of course.
Yes, I would like to see some technical papers on what is used currently. Perhaps DFS, as originally implemented, was more of an average reading across the pixel matrix and advancements (accelerators??) permit tighter mapping to individual pixels.

I guess, without being privy to the internal documentation, most of us can only guess exactly what happens.
02-16-2018, 09:43 AM   #239
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QuoteOriginally posted by troenaas Quote
“It is an illusion that photos are made with the camera… they are made with the eye, heart and head.”
That’s like saying houses aren’t made with wood, hammers and nails, but by architects and interior designers. Try making a photo sometime without a camera and get back to us about how well it worked out. Sorry, but that quote is mindless pap.

---------- Post added 02-16-18 at 10:47 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
IN the video comparing the Sony A9 and the Nikon D4, despite all the hype, when using the tracking and full frame rate to shoot a runner, the 15 fps camera got the same image as the 22 FPS camera. At that point using the 22 FPS camera, you have more images to go through to get the same image. My guess is, frame rate after maybe 11-12 FPS is wasted most of the time and just causes more computer work. And the frame rate of a K-3 is pretty darn close to optimum, it just needs another little tweak to gt it up to 10. But honestly, of the shooters I am able to follow on facebook, who shoot beside me from time to time, none have ever captured an image at 15 FPS, I didn't capture just as good with 8 FPS. And because they are using high speed 20-24 MP bodies, when I get a good close shot and can switch to my K-1 instead of my K-3, my images can blow theirs out of the water.

I'm personally not convinced 22 FPS is something I would buy even were it the same price. I'm convinced 10 FPS is enough overkill to make sure you don't miss anything.

In one case the guy next to me with a 1Dx shot 1300 frames of an otter, I shot 400, and we both posted almost exactly the same image. I had to go through 400 images to post mine, he had to go through 1300. How is that a good thing?

He was shooting with $15,000 worth of gear. I was shooting with less than $5,000. A reasonable person would want to know, is that fair that I should be able to get an equivalent images with so much less expenditure on equipment? But , fair has nothing to do with it.
My experience has been that the higher the frame rate, the more likely one is to miss exactly what the high frame rate is supposed to capture, which is the peak of whatever action is happening in front of the camera. Iím one of those push the button at the right time and know you have what you want people, rather than the push the button at the wrong time and pray that you will get what you want.
02-16-2018, 09:48 AM   #240
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Thatís like saying houses arenít made with wood, hammers and nails, but by architects and interior designers. Try making a photo sometime without a camera and get back to us about how well it worked out. Sorry, but that quote is mindless pap.
You forgot the Carpenters, Plumbers, Electricians, Masons, Roofers... :^)
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