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02-16-2018, 10:02 AM - 1 Like   #241
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
That’s like saying houses aren’t made with wood, hammers and nails, but by architects and interior designers. Try making a photo sometime without a camera and get back to us about how well it worked out. Sorry, but that quote is mindless pap.

---------- Post added 02-16-18 at 10:47 AM ----------


My experience has been that the higher the frame rate, the more likely one is to miss exactly what the high frame rate is supposed to capture, which is the peak of whatever action is happening in front of the camera. I’m one of those push the button at the right time and know you have what you want people, rather than the push the button at the wrong time and pray that you will get what you want.
Ya, I do that too, but I hold the shutter button down for at least 4 frames, sometimes for all 23. And though the first shot is the best at times, more often than not a frame further down that I didn't anticipate is the best frame. With wildlife, unlike the studio, animals are completely unpredictable, and your ability to anticipate will be found wanting, if you actually shoot burst at most 25% of your images will be the first frame, that is the product of anticipating the moment. The rest will be shots you couldn't have possibly anticip[ated and in many cases will include elements you wouldn't have know were possible.

IN this otter image, the otter had just turned and moved towards me. This image with his foot in the air staring straight at me was for me "the image". The shot I actually set up for was much less interesting and later discarded. Never under-estimate the value of unscripted exposures. This image was available in one frame, if memory serves me well, #8 in the sequence of a 23 shot burst. How do you anticipate that if you don't know it's coming. Do you take a chance on getting nothing, waiting or the perfect shot? If so, you're going to miss a lot of images. This one is in my flickr wildlife folder. The other 23 in the sequence are not, including the image that was a product of anticipating the shot. It comes down to do you want the image or don't you? Because without burst, you're simply not getting it.

This is expereince gained by shooting beside some of the best wildlife shooters that come to the park. I used to think like you. I you learn to set up a good burst, which takes just as much skill as setting up a good single shot, and compare results, you'll shoot in bursts.



In the end, being able to select this image was enabled me to proclaim my image the winner of "most interesting shot of the day, compared with the other images people posted. Of course half of that was, I was the only one in this location when I got the image, but many similar images were posted. Burst took my image "out of the ordinary and made it special.


Last edited by normhead; 02-16-2018 at 10:21 AM.
02-16-2018, 10:20 AM   #242
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Ya, I do that too, but I hold the shutter button down for at least 4 frames, sometimes for all 23. And though the first shot is the best at times, more often than not a frame further down that I didn't anticipate is the best frame. With wildlife, unlike the studio, animals are completely unpredictable, and your ability to anticipate will be found wanting, if you actually shoot burst at most 25% of your images will be the first frame, that is the product of anticipating the moment. The rest will be shots you couldn't have possibly anticip[ated and in many cases will include elements you wouldn't have know were possible.

IN this otter image, the otter had just turned and moved towards me. This image with his foot in the air staring straight at me was for me "the image". The shot I actually set up for was much less interesting and later discarded. Never under-estimate the value of unscripted exposures. This image was available in one frame, if memory serves me well, #8 in the sequence of a 23 shot burst. How do you anticipate that if you don't know it's coming. Do you take a chance on getting nothing, waiting or the perfect shot? If so, you're going to miss a lot of images. This one is in my flickr wildlife folder. The other 23 in the sequence are not, including the image that was a product of anticipating the shot. It comes down to do you want the image or don't you? Because without burst, you're simply not getting it.

This is expereince gained by shooting beside some of the best wildlife shooters that come to the park. I used to think like you. I you learn to set up a good burst, which takes just as much skill as setting up a good single shot, and compare results, you'll shoot in bursts.

You are using an outlier image with poor framing to make an argument?
Sorry, but blind luck every now and again is not very convincing.
It’s called “spray and pray” and “machine gunning” for a reason.
02-16-2018, 11:03 AM   #243
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I don't have a Pentax KP or K70. What does the accelerator do ?
02-16-2018, 11:07 AM - 3 Likes   #244
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Please. Fast frame rates are useful for capturing a moment. I switch to crop mode on my K1 if I want a faster frame rate. But to get those 10 fps rates on a full frame costs $5k for a body. I'm not going to buy that, it doesn't make sense, as normhead says, the difference being $5k vs $15k for equipment.

I have two friends who shoot Nikon and Canon, the D500 and the Canon crop body. They get shots I miss with a faster frame rate. But I get shots they miss because of better noise control with the K1.

If the K1-II gets a stop in shutter speed through better noise control, that is a major upgrade. Right now I can get a stop by buying a faster long lens, hauling around a flash setup.

How much is a stop of shutter speed worth to you?

Wheatfield, you are displaying your ignorance of wildlife shooting technique.

02-16-2018, 11:08 AM - 1 Like   #245
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I don't have a Pentax KP or K70. What does the accelerator do ?
Improves by roughly one stop (K-P) noise management.
02-16-2018, 11:15 AM   #246
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
Improves by roughly one stop (K-P) noise management.
If the noise gets reduced at a certain ISO it should mimick the D850 dual gain sensor then.
02-16-2018, 11:20 AM - 1 Like   #247
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There is a new idea coming up. Not only counting the electrons as all sensors do, but also counting the holes. If you apply different gains to the electrons and to the holes you can expand the dynamic range. Here an article about that Nützliche Löcher | Blog | DOCMA Magazin but sorry in german only
02-16-2018, 11:28 AM   #248
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
You are using an outlier image with poor framing to make an argument?
Sorry, but blind luck every now and again is not very convincing.
It’s called “spray and pray” and “machine gunning” for a reason.
It's as I said, do you want the image or don't you? Clearly you just aren't willing in this type of situation to do what it takes.
You can apply whatever standards you want, with this strange photography morality. "Pray and spray." is better than "Click once and pray a lot harder."

Getting a unique image that other's don't get is way more pleasing than conforming to some standard more appropriate to single exposure view cameras than modern DSLRs.

All that says to me is that you are willing to settle for the same image everyone else got. When something happens in a situation like this, all the shutters go at close to the same time. Whether it's single frame shooters or burst shooter. Most of the time the burst shooters get the most interesting images. The single frame shooters, all get pretty much the same image. Shooting side by side with other shooters on a regular basis really opens up your perspective.


Last edited by normhead; 02-16-2018 at 11:38 AM.
02-16-2018, 11:32 AM   #249
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I don't have a Pentax KP or K70. What does the accelerator do ?
This other thread Pentax K3ii officially discontinued - Page 27 - PentaxForums.com
has been talking on and off about the 'accelerator' for the past day.
02-16-2018, 11:36 AM - 2 Likes   #250
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
It's as I said, do you want the image or don't you? Clearly you just aren't willing in this type of situation to do what it takes.
You can apply whatever standards you want, with this strange photography morality. "Pray and spray." is better than "Click once and pray a lot harder."

Getting a unique image that other's don't get is way more pleasing than conforming to some standard more appropriate to single exposure view cameras than modern DSLRs.

All that says to me is that you are willing to settle for the same image everyone else got. When something happens in a situation like this, all the shutter go at close to the same time. Whether it's single frame shooters or burst shooter. Most of the time the burst shooters get the most interesting images.
Actually, my apologies. That was trolling on my part and completely uncalled for. What you are doing works for you, and gives you very good images. The otter is cute, but you won’t convince me 100% that it couldn’t have been done in single shot mode, but I am convinced that a single shot wouldn’t be better sometimes.

Last edited by Wheatfield; 02-16-2018 at 11:41 AM.
02-16-2018, 11:45 AM   #251
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Actually, my apologies. That was trolling on my part and completely uncalled for. What you are doing works for you, and gives you very good images. The otter is cute, but you won’t convince me 100% that it couldn’t have been done in single shot mode.
Oh for sure it could have been taken, but, you would have had to pass on all the previous also cute but not quite as cute images that came before, hoping for this one, if it was even in your consciousness that this was something that could happen. Later in the day, the guy beside me was shooting with a D810. I asked him about the slow burst. He said, "My theory is use the D810. I know I won't have nearly as many images but if I get "the one" it will be a better image than you 24MP guys are getting.' He was pretty much single frame shooting. Everyone comes at these things with a different mind set. I had the K-1 with me and was switching bodies depending on how far away the otter was. So I kind of go both ways. I give myself some "pray and spray". But I also try for some K-1 higher res images. The K-1 is pretty much single shot even when it's in burst mode. You fill the buffer pretty quick and then you wait for 15 second before you can take the next shot. You want to shoot a burst off, you just can't.

This day the K-3 burst shot was the best shot, but that's not always the case.

Last edited by normhead; 02-16-2018 at 11:53 AM.
02-16-2018, 12:03 PM   #252
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
This other thread Pentax K3ii officially discontinued - Page 27 - PentaxForums.com has been talking on and off about the 'accelerator' for the past day.
Since I have the K1, I've taken some B&W shots and printed them. As I visited a good friend, I showed him and his wife the photos, venting the merit of my Pentax K1's high ISO performance. They said, "yes, it's true, your photographs are very slic but would you have some B&W photo with some grain like in film enlargement? We find photos with grain much more appealing".

Last edited by biz-engineer; 02-16-2018 at 12:09 PM.
02-16-2018, 12:08 PM   #253
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Since I have the K1, I've taken some B&W shots and printed them. As I visited a good friend, I showed him and his wife the photos, venting the merit of my Pentax K1's high ISO performance. They said, "yes, it's true, your photographs are very slick but would you have some B&W photo with some grain like in film enlargement? We find photos with grain much more appealing".
That is one view on noise.
Another one is that noise at 3200 iso in wildlife shots can be well done without.
So I welcome the accelerator unit as long as it preserves detail. Noise can easliy be added as desired in most raw converters nowadays. Noise is harder to remove if you want to preserve maximum detail.

btw. do the noise reduction settings on the KP have any effect on the raw "noise reduction" as done by means of the accelerator unit?
02-16-2018, 01:36 PM   #254
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Originally posted by troenaas
“It is an illusion that photos are made with the camera… they are made with the eye, heart and head.”

That’s like saying houses aren’t made with wood, hammers and nails, but by architects and interior designers. Try making a photo sometime without a camera and get back to us about how well it worked out. Sorry, but that quote is mindless pap.
It is perfectly fine with me - that what for me is precious wisdom - for another sounds like mindless pap. :-)

Last edited by troenaas; 02-16-2018 at 01:42 PM.
02-16-2018, 01:55 PM   #255
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Actually, my apologies. That was trolling on my part and completely uncalled for. What you are doing works for you, and gives you very good images. The otter is cute, but you won’t convince me 100% that it couldn’t have been done in single shot mode, but I am convinced that a single shot wouldn’t be better sometimes.
I've seen otters maybe 8 times in the last 5 years. Maybe 3 times the light and distance was reasonable. I have photos but not good ones in the sense that they are interesting or with character, whatever that means. To get a good one will be one very short moment when the light catches they eyes or doing something interesting. They don't pose. To get that moment will result from many shots taken. They are unpredictable, you cannot see the details that will be clear in the photo.

The skill is working with the buffer and refresh rate to capture the moment as it arises.

Getting a shot of an otter is not an every day occurrence. Getting a great shot is very rare. When the opportunity arises you take lots of shots.
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