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02-14-2018, 08:45 AM   #76
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Ah yes, it's not like the competition is moving forward, is it ...

02-14-2018, 08:50 AM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Let's wait just a bit to see what sort of high iso images that come out from it and what the differences are in pixel shift/stabilization. I'm certainly not going to rush out to get one, my K-1 is just fine, but it is amazing how easy it is to start salivating over new gear when you start seeing clean 100K iso photos showing up.

I don't shoot much above 12800 as I'm sure many of you don't either. However having ISO 51200 look like 3200 on a K-1 today would certainly be attractive if just for the convenience or rapidly taking night shots.

The KP and D500 made a massive jump in ISO performance on APS-C.
02-14-2018, 09:03 AM   #78
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I see this as a nice improvement for someone who doesn't have a K-1, but as a K-1 owner, I can't imagine shelling out $2k for the changes here. I also think thoughts about a redesigned shutter etc. on this version highly unlikely. That would be a major mechanical component, and what I see in this update was probably a component that could be updated without having to redo the entire camera, otherwise we'd have improved USB etc. But this really seems to be the same core with the newer image processing chip, and that was probably a very simple thing to do from a production standpoint.

Let's hope for a decent firmware update for existing users and perhaps a significant FF upgrade announced at CP+. This really looks like a stop gap. Thinking back to Kenspo's posts regarding the emphasis on full frame, I can't help but hope there's more we don't know about. This again is just rumors, and as already pointed out, the teaser image looks completely irrelevant. The whole thing could be nothing more than smoke screen and churn. Time will tell. Meanwhile, time to kick the FUD monster to the curb. At this point, that's all we've got.
02-14-2018, 09:08 AM   #79
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It's hard not to see the ILC sales slow for everyone with how good the current sensors are for typical needs honestly regardless of upgrades.

I'd have a hard time upgrading my D750 for a D850 even if they dropped the price to 2000 dollars. At prints 16x20 that is about the max I use 24mp looks excellent. Even my EM10ii produces gorgeous prints at 16mp in that size.

We're getting into specialized needs with the higher MP counts and increasing ISO capability on the new bodys, hard to justify that extra 2k when what you already have is so good.

02-14-2018, 09:12 AM - 1 Like   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by LeeRunge Quote
It's hard not to see the ILC sales slow for everyone with how good the current sensors are for typical needs honestly regardless of upgrades.

I'd have a hard time upgrading my D750 for a D850 even if they dropped the price to 2000 dollars. At prints 16x20 that is about the max I use 24mp looks excellent. Even my EM10ii produces gorgeous prints at 16mp in that size.

We're getting into specialized needs with the higher MP counts and increasing ISO capability on the new bodys, hard to justify that extra 2k when what you already have is so good.
I feel the same way about my K-3, for even a lot less money. DO you have any special low light, high ISO, "wouldn't have been as good with a K-1 or K-3 images for us? I'm a little mystified with the Pentax images on Imaging Resources not being able to resolve reds at high ISO, I'm wondering if you've actually encountered a situation where the Nikon's handling of reds at high ISO might have made a difference.

I tend to not care much about these kinds of things until I see an image worth having that takes advantage of a capability, just so I know what it means in the field.

To me, if it doesn't get me better images, it isn't worth considering. Test photo comparisons often don't hold up in real world shooting.

Last edited by normhead; 02-14-2018 at 09:18 AM.
02-14-2018, 09:17 AM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I feel the same way about my K-3, for even a lot less money. DO you got any special low light, high ISO, "wouldn't have been as good with a K-1 or K-3 images for us.I'm a little mystified with the Pentax images on Imaging Resources not being able to resolve reds at high ISO, I'm wondering if you've actually encountered a situation where the better Nikon handling of reds at high ISO might have made a difference.
The K-3 is fine under iso 1600 so if it's doing what you want then totally not worth any change. It still does well up to ISO 6400 in RAW as well IMO. The D750 is cleaner all around but it's not going to induce heart murmurs or anything. The AF really is a nice upgrade over the K3. When I compared both in RAW then post processed them in lightroom the D750 is much less work for high ISO but K3 still gets great shots.

After all that Pixel peeping in out other thread I found the KP really impressive, hopefully that sensor gets in the K3iii or a even better 24mp. I think it'll surpass the older D750 at that time.

For low light for what it's work K3 is better in AF-S single point in the dark than D750 by like half an EV, Nikon rates it as -3 but SAFOX beats it in that area. For AF-C and facial recognition on the eyes the D750 is excellent.

I'm not sure what's going on with reds, honestly I've never had a complaint with colors on any Pentax body. I don't think it's enough difference to matter outside pixel peeping. I think Imaging Resource is all JPEG in the comparison, K3's RAW is much better than it's JPEG imo. If you shoot JPEG next to D750 the high iso is much more than in RAW, probably just due to changes in processing in the newer body.

A AF refresh on K3iii and KP sensor will make for a really nice upgrade if they pull that off.

For "wouldn't get better without D750" the only critical difference is AF-C imo in some missed shots on the K-1 or K3, IQ is better on the FF 24mp more so in RAW flexibility with DR and ISO. Resolution it's a wash and the K3 has no AA which is nice. K-1 will top both of them for those shots that you nail. K3's a great price these days. I'm happy with the 1499 on the D750 but the switch was more about lenses for me than IQ advantage. I'm happy with K3 in that regard overall.

Last edited by LeeRunge; 02-14-2018 at 09:27 AM.
02-14-2018, 09:20 AM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by mohb Quote
Does anybody actually use the usb connection on their camera?
Yes, USB 3.0 is very useful for Tethering, which is an important feature for Professionals who shoot in the studio. Also USB 3.0 means a faster memory bus so that means faster reads and writes to the SD Cards as well....

02-14-2018, 09:22 AM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by LeeRunge Quote
The K-3 is fine under iso 1600 so if it's doing what you want then totally not worth any change. It still does well up to ISO 6400 in RAW as well IMO. The D750 is cleaner all around but it's not going to induce heart murmurs or anything. The AF really is a nice upgrade over the K3. When I compared both in RAW then post processed them in lightroom the D750 is much less work for high ISO but K3 still gets great shots.

After all that Pixel peeping in out other thread I found the KP really impressive, hopefully that sensor gets in the K3iii or a even better 24mp. I think it'll surpass the older D750 at that time.

For low light for what it's work K3 is better in AF-S single point in the dark than D750 by like half an EV, Nikon rates it as -3 but SAFOX beats it in that area. For AF-C and facial recognition on the eyes the D750 is excellent.

I'm not sure what's going on with reds, honestly I've never had a complaint with colors on any Pentax body. I don't think it's enough difference to matter outside pixel peeping.

A AF refresh on K3iii and KP sensor will make for a really nice upgrade if they pull that off.
That's been true for 10 years now, I've pretty much given up hope there's ever going to be Pentax that does a lot of flashy stuff. For guys my age who grew up shooting a frame at a time with MF, AF is still kind of a frill. For us, it's more about what you have when you're done shooting, not how easy it was to get it. I've done comparison images where the K-1 had no advantage over a K-3. You don't buy a camera or not because of that. There are however a few K-1 images that really stand out. The differences can be subtle. It all depends on where you draw the line. "I want better than this, but not as good as that." Some people draw that line way back at their first post and shoot, or their phone.

There are scenes where my K-3 resolves and renders the scene in a way, more MP doesn't improve the image. You carry the K-1 for the small number of times when the extra resolution is useful. Every time you move up to a technically better camera, how often you see improvements gets to be fewer and fewer. Once you get to APS_c, improvements will be hard to see in every day shooting. You can set up test shots, by controlling the distance you shoot from, the nature of the light, the subject matter etc. But out in the real world, everyone of those parameters may be different, and the test results may not apply. Test results are applicable, only for the exact conditions of that test.

I'm guessing I could devise tests to prove my point and shoot is better than my K-1 (like where I want everything in focus at ƒ2.8) . It's all about the environment you are shooting in.

Last edited by normhead; 02-14-2018 at 09:43 AM.
02-14-2018, 09:23 AM   #84
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This update seems to be more in line with the K-3 to K-3ii, if that is the case then I will get a K-1 on end of life sale similar to what I did with the K-3.
02-14-2018, 09:35 AM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by y0chang Quote
This update seems to be more in line with the K-3 to K-3ii
In terms of timing...yes
In terms of features...no. The K-5II/K-5IIs is closer.

QuoteOriginally posted by y0chang Quote
if that is the case then I will get a K-1 on end of life sale similar to what I did with the K-3.
The prices are already dropping and it may required a bit of brinkmanship to catch them at lowest ebb before distributor's stock is exhausted.


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02-14-2018, 09:37 AM - 1 Like   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
That's been true for 10 years now, I've pretty much given up hope there's ever going to be Pentax that does a lot of flashy stuff. For guys my age who grew up shooting a frame art time, AF is still kind of a frill. For us, it's more about what you have when you're done shooting, not how easy it was to get it. I've done comparison images where the K-1 had no advantage over a K-3. You don't buy a camera or not because of that. There are however a few K-1 images that really stand out. The differences can be subtle. It all depends on where you draw the line.

There are scenes where my K-3 resolves and renders the scene in a way, more MP doesn't improve the image. You carry the K-1 for the small number of times when the extra resolution is useful. Every time you move up to a technically better camera, how often you see improvements gets to be fewer and fewer. Once you get to APS_c, improvements will be hard to see in every day shooting. You can set up test shots, by controlling the distance you shoot from, the nature of the light, the subject matter etc. But out in the real world, everyone of those parameters may be different, and the test results may not apply.
It's diminishing returns for sure. In the end just getting the right image matters more than all of it. The "cheap camera, pro photographer" episodes on youtube are fun to watch when they hand the pro's a lego camera and they still get interesting images.

I'll probably keep my K3 and ultra wide and the 100mm macro for now with K3 as it gets the job done for me.

I really really hope Pentax gets Livebulb/Livecomp and focus stacking in the new body. Pixel Shift in camera so it's ready to go in Lightroom would be really nice too.

If you havn't seen Livecomp/bulb have a look it's a killer feature that I love on the OMD's. Shooting lightning is like fish in the barrel with it.

Livebulb reminds me of watching a photo expose in a darkroom as a kid.


The worst feeling is being such a camera nerd and showing my wife prints from 4 different systems and she can't tell the difference what came from where, always hurts a little inside.

Last edited by LeeRunge; 02-14-2018 at 09:44 AM.
02-14-2018, 09:55 AM - 1 Like   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by LeeRunge Quote
The worst feeling is being such a camera nerd and showing my wife prints from 4 different systems and she can't tell the difference what came from where, always hurts a little inside.
The worst for me was the day shortly after getting my K-1, shooting a couple of images with my K-1 and my wife's K-5 with the 28-105. It was landscape of a spruce bog. I was dying to show her how much better the K-1 was. There was nothing, What I ended up proving was that for the image, the K-5 was just as good as the K-1. All the pixel peeping and side by side comparisons didn't show a thing. The K-5 was capable of resolving all necessary detail. There was nothing the K-1 could add to improve anything. MY wife's question, "Why did you buy the camera?" remains unanswered in real life shooting.

My personal opinion is that there is a subtle quality that from time to time makes a difference. But it's not nearly as often as folks like to think. I find I can't predict what images I'm going to like and post by what camera I used. After shooting with both cameras, sometimes the K-3 gives me the best image, sometime the K-1 does. It's more about how I lucked ou on the framing etc. My feeling that occasionally there's a K-1 image that is even marginally better remains to date, unproven in any real world shooting situation.

Last edited by normhead; 02-14-2018 at 10:00 AM.
02-14-2018, 09:56 AM - 4 Likes   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by LeeRunge Quote
The worst feeling is being such a camera nerd and showing my wife prints from 4 different systems and she can't tell the difference what came from where


My wife: We really should put that picture up on the wall.
Me: Gee, I don't know dear, I'm not totally happy with the print.
Wife: Why not, it's great. You took a really nice picture. What's the problem with it?
Me: Well, you see right here... see that faint halo effect at the boundary between the trees and the sky in this area? I should have processed it differently. Maybe I'll re-do it.
Wife: Rolls eyes.
02-14-2018, 10:04 AM - 2 Likes   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by c.a.m Quote
My wife: We really should put that picture up on the wall.
Me: Gee, I don't know dear, I'm not totally happy with the print.
Wife: Why not, it's great. You took a really nice picture. What's the problem with it?
Me: Well, you see right here... see that faint halo effect at the boundary between the trees and the sky in this area? I should have processed it differently. Maybe I'll re-do it.
Wife: Rolls eyes.

My wife actually tried to talk a prospective client out of buying one of my prints because she didn't like my post processing. Finally the guy just pointed at one of hers and the print in question and said, "I want that one and that one, what kind of deal can I get for buying both?" (These were $350 prints.) My wife still won't let me display one of my best prints ever, because of a little purple fringing in the top left corner. It hangs in the downstairs bathroom. Banished so to speak. It does however have a prominent place in the houses of several customers.

Photographers can be way to picky.

At my wife's insistence we have tried to reshoot that image many times, and it has never come out as good again. People often ask me where an image is taken. I say, if you want this picture, buy this picture. You can go to the same place, at the same time of year, at the same time of day. You will not get this picture, and neither would I if i went back myself. You have to judge images by what's good about them. Photographers focus on what's wrong with them. It's the wrong approach. People grossly underestimate how much luck there is in getting a great image. You have to be ready incase you get a great opportunity, but using the same technique etc. as you used on your best images, sometimes you get nothing useful.

Photography, especially nature photography is about perseverance, more than anything else. One day, you happen to be at the right place at the right time with the right camera for the job. Gear etc is secondary to the part where you have to be there, and the more often you are out shooting, the better your odds. All the other factors pale by comparison.

I suspect the real answer to "Why did you buy this camera?" is "I would buy every camera ever made given sufficient funds and storage space. I just like cameras."

Last edited by normhead; 02-14-2018 at 10:34 AM.
02-14-2018, 10:05 AM   #90
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If the leaked specs are correct, that's not great and that's not bad either. If not having anything brand new to present at CP+, Pentax buys some time with presenting a K1 mark II with a firmware tweak, without spending much on it.
If you have a K1 and you except a catchup with competition on AF and speed of operation, you probably made the wrong choice to begin with because the K1 does not fit in the class of cameras designed for action photography.
Since I've looked into 4K displaying tech, I've come to the conclusion that the IQ delivered Pentax K1 with good glass is already way beyond what anyone can appreciate, being able to practically exploit the 14bits of IQ out of raw images is already an achievement, not to mention a successful pixel shifted composition. But If you have a K1 and if you are able to appreciate an increase of image quality from a K1, you may be able to sell the K1 and get a K1 II for a couple of hundred dollars, it's not a big deal either.
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