SR II on K-1 MKII will offer Dynamic (handheld) Pixel Shift Resolution

08amczb · 02-20-2018, 08:10 AM

I hope the Pentax KP improvements are coming to the K-1II. I can't live without minimum shutter speed. (I hope the K-1 also gets this feature via FW update.)

LensBeginner · 02-20-2018, 08:10 AM

Originally posted by savoche

Who is this Lo-G Carl you are referring to?

Must be a video profile...

photoptimist · 02-20-2018, 08:34 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Igor123

I agree that it would be helped/improved by (1), but it is not necessary for handheld PS in mk1. Let's say the new SR "is good" for 1/10 s for a given shakyness, while the old "only" was good for 1/20s in that case. That just means that the mk2 would "support" PS for shutter speeds smaller than (1/10)/4+3*readouttime for mk2, and (1/20)/4+3*readouttime for mk1. Say 1/100 on mk2 while the older one would only do 1/200 in the same scenario. Not as good but not impossible/useless?

2 is possible I guess, but that would also mean they have been lazy/economical/not as good as possible in previous SR implementations if they didn't really achieve "pixellevel" accuracy with the SR. I never owned a K3 (went from K5 to K1) but the K3 pixel size is almost half of K1, and even if the SR was "slightly worse than pixellevel accuracy" in K3, would they have put a that much less accurate one in the K1 when having the k3 accuracy before? (In this case meaning that "slightly less than pixelprecision on k3 would be something like pixel level precision on k1 due to the larger pixels)

I agree better SR would certainly help, but unless 2 is true, shouldn't be a hard requirement for it to be doable...but as others have said, we have the market aspect that this feature may be something to increase the appeal of mk2 over mk1, and also of course backporting it, even if possible, would cost more than nothing so maybe that's also a con when talking probability of it becoming available on mk1 in firmware...

The bigger issue is that it's not something fixed by software. It requires an accelerometer and gryosensor with higher resolution and lower drift specification to track camera shake over at least 3/4 second.

SR for a PS needs to be at least twice as good as SR for Bayer sensor camera because PS doubles the resolution in the red and blue channels. Worse, uncorrected shake during PS creates nasty checkerboard color artifacts (image ruined!) but only adds a little blur to a single-shot image (IQ degrades gracefully).

The point is that the K-1ii needs a much much higher-spec gyro-sensor and accelerometer than the K-1 does.

P.S. K3 pixel size are NOT almost half of K1. K-3 pixels are 3.88 µm. K-1 pixels are 4.78 µm. There's only a 23% difference.

lytrytyr · 02-20-2018, 08:45 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by alpheios

It‘s some awesome tech. It doesn’t move the sensor by one pixel as on the first version when using a tripod but actually detects the handheld shake of the camera to capture the four images needed for the final image.

Does this mean we need to drink lots of coffee so our hands shake enough for the tech to work?

Simen1 · 02-20-2018, 09:53 AM

If the K-1 had been a Tesla the K-1 II features would likely be a software update. I don't like that doftware updates are held back to make the "new" camera look new. I think Pentax would sell more cameras if they where more generous with the updates for a long time after the replacement was ready. It would be a very positive way to differentiate Pentax from the rest. Just like Tesla does in the automotive industry.

**BigMackCam** · 02-20-2018, 10:06 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Simen1

If the K-1 had been a Tesla the K-1 II features would likely be a software update. I don't like that software updates are held back to make the "new" camera look new. I think Pentax would sell more cameras if they where more generous with the updates for a long time after the replacement was ready. It would be a very positive way to differentiate Pentax from the rest. Just like Tesla does in the automotive industry.

There are hardware changes to the K-1II, so although it's only a minor refresh, it's still a separate model - and Ricoh needs to sell enough of them to make some profit from the development and manufacturing costs. There has to be some reason for people to choose the K-1II over the outgoing K-1 (or a used example of same), and features like this are the differentiators. On that basis, even if the changes were software only, I'd still understand if Ricoh didn't make them available as an update to the K-1. Ricoh isn't "holding back" on software changes to make anything look new... it's releasing new features on a new camera model, and it shouldn't matter to us how it implements those features. If people want them, it's reasonable that they should buy the camera...

reh321 · 02-20-2018, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by Simen1

If the K-1 had been a Tesla the K-1 II features would likely be a software update. I don't like that doftware updates are held back to make the "new" camera look new. I think Pentax would sell more cameras if they where more generous with the updates for a long time after the replacement was ready. It would be a very positive way to differentiate Pentax from the rest. Just like Tesla does in the automotive industry.

No - there are hardware changes doing things that could not be done in software.

---------- Post added 02-20-18 at 12:16 PM ----------

Originally posted by 08amczb

I hope the Pentax KP improvements are coming to the K-1II. I can't live without minimum shutter speed. (I hope the K-1 also gets this feature via FW update.)

Unless we hear otherwise, my expectation is that everything from the KP {not related to the crop sensor} will be in the K-1ii.

johnkrumm · 02-20-2018, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by photoptimist

Doing PS+SR almost certainly needs much better sensors than single-shot SR does because of the increased stabilization time and greater sensitivity to inaccuracy.

1) Duration of stabilization:

The K-1's SR system sensors only needs to be accurate for 1 shutter speed time.

The K-1ii's SR+PS system sensors needs to be sufficiently accurate for period of 4 shutter speed times plus about 3/4 second of sensor data read-out.

2) Accuracy: Also, SR+PS is a lot less forgiving of error than plain single-shot SR.

During single-shot SR, uncorrected shifts of up to a pixel merely create slight blurring of the image. A serious pixel peeper might be disappointed but the image is not ruined.

But for PS, uncorrected errors of even half a pixel on any of the four shots creates very obnoxious checkerboard color artifacts on all the edges in the scene.

The point is the K-1ii needs double the sensor accuracy over more than four times the duration (more than 8X better overall) than the K-1 does.

From what I read this was a different type of pixel shift, not the up, down, side to side 4 pixel shifting, but something different using small movements that still allows SR. Pure speculation, but I suspect it's some kind of fractional movement and stacking, and the tripod enables more samples that work in the stack, so better resolution.

**gaweidert** · 02-20-2018, 10:36 AM - **3 Likes**

Originally posted by Simen1

If the K-1 had been a Tesla the K-1 II features would likely be a software update. I don't like that doftware updates are held back to make the "new" camera look new. I think Pentax would sell more cameras if they where more generous with the updates for a long time after the replacement was ready. It would be a very positive way to differentiate Pentax from the rest. Just like Tesla does in the automotive industry.

If the K-1 had been a Tesla, there would only be 5 in private hands, but with lots of noise and promises on how great the future of the K1 is.

In a day or so we will see what all the fuss has been about. The K1 is selling better than expected so maybe a lack of parts is behind the upgrade. Since they had to upgrade it anyway, why not add a few improvements that had already been developed? The actual release of the K1 was much delayed for reasons beyond Ricoh's control. So design wise it is not that new.

Does anyone know what the words "wireless sync" mean in the section on flash specs? I profess ignorance of modern flash systems. Flash photography is something I rarely engage in. I am still stuck in the old auto thyristor days. They work good enough for my use.

pid · 02-20-2018, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by kenspo

They wouldn't build a new camera if they could..Would they?

you would be right, if this feature will need other hardware ;-)
... but it sure will not be the only improvement ... acceleration, shutterblur, USB3, buffer, processor ... there are a lot possibilities for the need of new hardware

**SteveinSLC** · 02-20-2018, 11:07 AM - **1 Like**

To quote Fox Mulder, I Want To Believe. But...
This strikes me as an incredibly complicated thing to do, particularly with anything other than very fast shutter speeds(and even with those, the framerate is an issue). The current motion compensation functionality is imperfect, and this seems to me even harder to pull off than that.
I will be very impressed if this is actually useful. And hope that the software to process these files keeps up, as having the files is no good if the only option for processing them is the crummy DCU/SilkyPix.

**monochrome** · 02-20-2018, 11:16 AM

My bet is on crummy DCU/SilkyPix.

Simen1 · 02-20-2018, 11:18 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by gaweidert

If the K-1 had been a Tesla, there would only be 5 in private hands, but with lots of noise and promises on how great the future of the K1 is.

I must have seen double last time I visited a supercharger..

I have been happy with both K-1 and my model S. Past, present and presumably the future too. I wont settle for the second best.

UserAccessDenied · 02-20-2018, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by monochrome

People amaze me. Just a month ago my K-1 was 100% awesomeness. Now, waaahhhhh. I want the FW Update. Waaahhhh. It isn’t a good enough upgrade. Waaahhhh. Where’s my K-3 lll?

Boo Hoo Hoo.

Ha!
I love it!

Even though I'm asking the question of why one is released before the other...

But still, who am I kidding?
I can't afford a new camera body right now, even if they released a K-3iV with self-drive mode and cruise control with lane assist...

LightBug · 02-20-2018, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by alpheios

Just read over on pentaxrumors.com that the new SR II on the K-1 II will actually enable the handheld use of Pixel Shift. If true this is awesome news and something the competition doesn’t offer (yet).

It‘s some awesome tech. It doesn’t move the sensor by one pixel as on the first version when using a tripod but actually detects the handheld shake of the camera to capture the four images needed for the final image.

The upcoming Pentax K-1 Mark II DSLR camera will have an upgraded version of the Pixel Shift Resolution feature (SRII) | Pentax Rumors

I’ll believe it when I see it. If Ricoh engineers can do this, they can do anything!

02-20-2018, 10:06 AM - 1 Like	#36
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,658	Originally posted by Simen1 If the K-1 had been a Tesla the K-1 II features would likely be a software update. I don't like that software updates are held back to make the "new" camera look new. I think Pentax would sell more cameras if they where more generous with the updates for a long time after the replacement was ready. It would be a very positive way to differentiate Pentax from the rest. Just like Tesla does in the automotive industry. There are hardware changes to the K-1II, so although it's only a minor refresh, it's still a separate model - and Ricoh needs to sell enough of them to make some profit from the development and manufacturing costs. There has to be some reason for people to choose the K-1II over the outgoing K-1 (or a used example of same), and features like this are the differentiators. On that basis, even if the changes were software only, I'd still understand if Ricoh didn't make them available as an update to the K-1. Ricoh isn't "holding back" on software changes to make anything look new... it's releasing new features on a new camera model, and it shouldn't matter to us how it implements those features. If people want them, it's reasonable that they should buy the camera... Last edited by BigMackCam; 02-20-2018 at 10:21 AM.

02-20-2018, 11:18 AM - 2 Likes	#43
Simen1 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Tromsø, Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 1,031	Originally posted by gaweidert If the K-1 had been a Tesla, there would only be 5 in private hands, but with lots of noise and promises on how great the future of the K1 is. I must have seen double last time I visited a supercharger.. I have been happy with both K-1 and my model S. Past, present and presumably the future too. I wont settle for the second best. Last edited by Simen1; 02-20-2018 at 11:43 AM.

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02-20-2018, 08:10 AM	#31
08amczb Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 796	I hope the Pentax KP improvements are coming to the K-1II. I can't live without minimum shutter speed. (I hope the K-1 also gets this feature via FW update.)

02-20-2018, 08:10 AM	#32
LensBeginner Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Photos: Albums Posts: 4,696	Originally posted by savoche Who is this Lo-G Carl you are referring to? Must be a video profile...

02-20-2018, 08:34 AM - 1 Like	#33
photoptimist Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2016 Photos: Albums Posts: 5,121	Originally posted by Igor123 I agree that it would be helped/improved by (1), but it is not necessary for handheld PS in mk1. Let's say the new SR "is good" for 1/10 s for a given shakyness, while the old "only" was good for 1/20s in that case. That just means that the mk2 would "support" PS for shutter speeds smaller than (1/10)/4+3readouttime for mk2, and (1/20)/4+3readouttime for mk1. Say 1/100 on mk2 while the older one would only do 1/200 in the same scenario. Not as good but not impossible/useless? 2 is possible I guess, but that would also mean they have been lazy/economical/not as good as possible in previous SR implementations if they didn't really achieve "pixellevel" accuracy with the SR. I never owned a K3 (went from K5 to K1) but the K3 pixel size is almost half of K1, and even if the SR was "slightly worse than pixellevel accuracy" in K3, would they have put a that much less accurate one in the K1 when having the k3 accuracy before? (In this case meaning that "slightly less than pixelprecision on k3 would be something like pixel level precision on k1 due to the larger pixels) I agree better SR would certainly help, but unless 2 is true, shouldn't be a hard requirement for it to be doable...but as others have said, we have the market aspect that this feature may be something to increase the appeal of mk2 over mk1, and also of course backporting it, even if possible, would cost more than nothing so maybe that's also a con when talking probability of it becoming available on mk1 in firmware... The bigger issue is that it's not something fixed by software. It requires an accelerometer and gryosensor with higher resolution and lower drift specification to track camera shake over at least 3/4 second. SR for a PS needs to be at least twice as good as SR for Bayer sensor camera because PS doubles the resolution in the red and blue channels. Worse, uncorrected shake during PS creates nasty checkerboard color artifacts (image ruined!) but only adds a little blur to a single-shot image (IQ degrades gracefully). The point is that the K-1ii needs a much much higher-spec gyro-sensor and accelerometer than the K-1 does. P.S. K3 pixel size are NOT almost half of K1. K-3 pixels are 3.88 µm. K-1 pixels are 4.78 µm. There's only a 23% difference.

02-20-2018, 08:45 AM - 2 Likes	#34
lytrytyr Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2011 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,310	Originally posted by alpheios It‘s some awesome tech. It doesn’t move the sensor by one pixel as on the first version when using a tripod but actually detects the handheld shake of the camera to capture the four images needed for the final image. Does this mean we need to drink lots of coffee so our hands shake enough for the tech to work?

02-20-2018, 09:53 AM	#35
Simen1 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Tromsø, Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 1,031	If the K-1 had been a Tesla the K-1 II features would likely be a software update. I don't like that doftware updates are held back to make the "new" camera look new. I think Pentax would sell more cameras if they where more generous with the updates for a long time after the replacement was ready. It would be a very positive way to differentiate Pentax from the rest. Just like Tesla does in the automotive industry.

02-20-2018, 10:13 AM	#37
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,177	Originally posted by Simen1 If the K-1 had been a Tesla the K-1 II features would likely be a software update. I don't like that doftware updates are held back to make the "new" camera look new. I think Pentax would sell more cameras if they where more generous with the updates for a long time after the replacement was ready. It would be a very positive way to differentiate Pentax from the rest. Just like Tesla does in the automotive industry. No - there are hardware changes doing things that could not be done in software. ---------- Post added 02-20-18 at 12:16 PM ---------- Originally posted by 08amczb I hope the Pentax KP improvements are coming to the K-1II. I can't live without minimum shutter speed. (I hope the K-1 also gets this feature via FW update.) Unless we hear otherwise, my expectation is that everything from the KP {not related to the crop sensor} will be in the K-1ii.

02-20-2018, 10:20 AM	#38
johnkrumm Senior Member Join Date: May 2016 Location: Duluth, MN Posts: 141	Originally posted by photoptimist Doing PS+SR almost certainly needs much better sensors than single-shot SR does because of the increased stabilization time and greater sensitivity to inaccuracy. 1) Duration of stabilization: The K-1's SR system sensors only needs to be accurate for 1 shutter speed time. The K-1ii's SR+PS system sensors needs to be sufficiently accurate for period of 4 shutter speed times plus about 3/4 second of sensor data read-out. 2) Accuracy: Also, SR+PS is a lot less forgiving of error than plain single-shot SR. During single-shot SR, uncorrected shifts of up to a pixel merely create slight blurring of the image. A serious pixel peeper might be disappointed but the image is not ruined. But for PS, uncorrected errors of even half a pixel on any of the four shots creates very obnoxious checkerboard color artifacts on all the edges in the scene. The point is the K-1ii needs double the sensor accuracy over more than four times the duration (more than 8X better overall) than the K-1 does. From what I read this was a different type of pixel shift, not the up, down, side to side 4 pixel shifting, but something different using small movements that still allows SR. Pure speculation, but I suspect it's some kind of fractional movement and stacking, and the tripod enables more samples that work in the stack, so better resolution.

02-20-2018, 10:36 AM - 3 Likes	#39
gaweidert Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Rochester, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 5,325	Originally posted by Simen1 If the K-1 had been a Tesla the K-1 II features would likely be a software update. I don't like that doftware updates are held back to make the "new" camera look new. I think Pentax would sell more cameras if they where more generous with the updates for a long time after the replacement was ready. It would be a very positive way to differentiate Pentax from the rest. Just like Tesla does in the automotive industry. If the K-1 had been a Tesla, there would only be 5 in private hands, but with lots of noise and promises on how great the future of the K1 is. In a day or so we will see what all the fuss has been about. The K1 is selling better than expected so maybe a lack of parts is behind the upgrade. Since they had to upgrade it anyway, why not add a few improvements that had already been developed? The actual release of the K1 was much delayed for reasons beyond Ricoh's control. So design wise it is not that new. Does anyone know what the words "wireless sync" mean in the section on flash specs? I profess ignorance of modern flash systems. Flash photography is something I rarely engage in. I am still stuck in the old auto thyristor days. They work good enough for my use.

02-20-2018, 11:06 AM	#40
pid Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2010 Photos: Gallery Posts: 567	Originally posted by kenspo They wouldn't build a new camera if they could..Would they? you would be right, if this feature will need other hardware ;-) ... but it sure will not be the only improvement ... acceleration, shutterblur, USB3, buffer, processor ... there are a lot possibilities for the need of new hardware

02-20-2018, 11:07 AM - 1 Like	#41
SteveinSLC Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2017 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 568	To quote Fox Mulder, I Want To Believe. But... This strikes me as an incredibly complicated thing to do, particularly with anything other than very fast shutter speeds(and even with those, the framerate is an issue). The current motion compensation functionality is imperfect, and this seems to me even harder to pull off than that. I will be very impressed if this is actually useful. And hope that the software to process these files keeps up, as having the files is no good if the only option for processing them is the crummy DCU/SilkyPix.

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02-20-2018, 11:16 AM	#42
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	My bet is on crummy DCU/SilkyPix.

02-20-2018, 11:51 AM	#44
UserAccessDenied Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Maryland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,677	Originally posted by monochrome People amaze me. Just a month ago my K-1 was 100% awesomeness. Now, waaahhhhh. I want the FW Update. Waaahhhh. It isn’t a good enough upgrade. Waaahhhh. Where’s my K-3 lll? Boo Hoo Hoo. Ha! I love it! Even though I'm asking the question of why one is released before the other... But still, who am I kidding? I can't afford a new camera body right now, even if they released a K-3iV with self-drive mode and cruise control with lane assist...

02-20-2018, 11:57 AM	#45
LightBug Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: OC, CA, USA Posts: 506	Originally posted by alpheios Just read over on pentaxrumors.com that the new SR II on the K-1 II will actually enable the handheld use of Pixel Shift. If true this is awesome news and something the competition doesn’t offer (yet). It‘s some awesome tech. It doesn’t move the sensor by one pixel as on the first version when using a tripod but actually detects the handheld shake of the camera to capture the four images needed for the final image. The upcoming Pentax K-1 Mark II DSLR camera will have an upgraded version of the Pixel Shift Resolution feature (SRII) \| Pentax Rumors I’ll believe it when I see it. If Ricoh engineers can do this, they can do anything!