Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
02-24-2018, 02:01 PM   #196
Pentaxian




Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 928
QuoteOriginally posted by robjmitchell Quote
If there is no difference it would mean the hand held pixel shift actually works.
Also if people have missed it the ISO 12800 comparison between K1 and K1ii can be seen here.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7hy5aHDIyQ0&feature=youtu.be
This is a great improvement in high ISO in this comparison. The Accelerator Unit effectively is mitigating color noise associated with low light high ISO.

It will be interesting to see the effect of the Accelerator Unit with a BSI sensor. BSI sensors strength is eliminating high ISO noise.

02-24-2018, 02:36 PM   #197
retired sw engineer
Loyal Site Supporter
reh321's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: South Bend, IN, USA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 9,983
QuoteOriginally posted by CP1 Quote
- if you really buy into a system for the glass and not the body...
then you purchase a Canon. These days, I look at the entire system.
02-24-2018, 10:27 PM   #198
maw
Pentaxian
maw's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Sassari (Italy)
Posts: 465
Original Poster
Hey guys,

It may be that it is presented with the K1 Mark II, the Pentax HD Pentax D FA 50mm f/1.4 SDM AW and "maybe in autumn" we will also have the 85mm. Unfortunately, there are not only Canon and Nikon. We settle for one piece at a time.

HD Pentax D FA ? 50mm f/1.4 SDM AW lens = Tokina Opera 50mm f/1.4 FF lens? | Pentax Rumors

Last edited by maw; 02-24-2018 at 10:33 PM. Reason: forgetfulness
02-25-2018, 02:34 AM   #199
Senior Member




Join Date: Jul 2011
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 118
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
It won't be pixel shift in the way we typically use the term. It will just be combining four images and using some sort of algorithm to match them up and hopefully increase resolution and decrease noise. My guess is that it will do better at the latter than the former, but I could be wrong. I shoot handheld multiple exposures periodically and HDR software lines them up an combines them. I suppose this will be the same sort of thing except that the exposures should be exactly the same.

I still will go with old fashioned pixel shift for most situations.
I think so too. Also in the German pxp-press kit was stated the dynamic pixel shift has 70% of the performance of traditional pixel shift.

I think I read somewhere before that the dynamic pixel shift might be applied during regular interval-shooting. So as rondec said, they just improved their picture mapping algorithm to match the pictures taken in the intervall shooting.

It does make sense, this way (using the regular mechanical shutter) they dont have the disadvantages of ES, like jelley effect while moving or led flickering or no SR. Of course they also lose the benefit of eliminating shutter shock in slower exposure times. This might be one reason why they did mention the 70%. In my experience ES during regular pixel shift is the main reason for a sharper picture.

The dynamic pixel shift might in this way only bring advantages for better ISO performance and eliminating moire, not so much for sharpness (compared to a single ES shot).

Anyhow, i hope they bring a substantial increase in operating speed which is worth the upgrade .

02-25-2018, 03:13 AM - 1 Like   #200
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Gladys, Virginia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 18,559
QuoteOriginally posted by maw Quote
Hey guys,

It may be that it is presented with the K1 Mark II, the Pentax HD Pentax D FA 50mm f/1.4 SDM AW and "maybe in autumn" we will also have the 85mm. Unfortunately, there are not only Canon and Nikon. We settle for one piece at a time.

HD Pentax D FA ? 50mm f/1.4 SDM AW lens = Tokina Opera 50mm f/1.4 FF lens? | Pentax Rumors
It amuses me that whoever runs Pentax Rumors just reads the News and Rumors section here and then posts articles based on that. Asahiman apparently said that Pentax developed the DFA 50, but is licensing it to Tokina.
02-25-2018, 03:28 AM   #201
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
ffking's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Poole
Posts: 3,809
I hope that's true - it might not provide optimum uniqueness of offering for Pentax (although they might retain some of that through lens coatings) - but it would be a good way of recouping R&D costs and - if it were both true and known to be true - it would allow others to see just how good Pentax lenses can be.
02-25-2018, 03:30 AM   #202
Pentaxian




Join Date: Feb 2015
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 4,850
QuoteOriginally posted by Snakeisthestuff Quote
they dont have the disadvantages of ES
Really? Pixel shift does not use electronic shutter?
02-25-2018, 03:30 AM   #203
Pentaxian




Join Date: Feb 2015
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 4,850
QuoteOriginally posted by Snakeisthestuff Quote
they dont have the disadvantages of ES
Really? Pixel shift does not use electronic shutter?

02-25-2018, 03:59 AM - 1 Like   #204
Forum Member




Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 76
QuoteOriginally posted by Stavri Quote
The specs look good, they don't seem to showcase a "substantial" improvement over the older K1 but then again the K1 is already a great camera. I don't see any specs on the sensor. Looks to me like an v1.5 upgrade rather than a 2.0.
Bismillah

When I look back at other MK II cameras by Ricoh to include the GR and K3 II the K1 II seems like a comparable advancement. The exciting part of the upgrade lies in the fact that Ricoh is really innovating - first handheld pixel shift and first upgrade able DSLR. Not only that but Ricoh is positioning the K1 II as the king of high ISO and overall IQ. I hope these advancements in IQ payoff and are acknowledged by the community.

---------- Post added 02-25-18 at 04:02 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Pentax_WA Quote
Total disappointment.
Bismillah

When I look back at other MK II cameras by Ricoh to include the GR and K3 II the K1 II seems like a comparable advancement. The exciting part of the upgrade lies in the fact that Ricoh is really innovating - first handheld pixel shift and first upgrade able DSLR. Not only that but Ricoh is positioning the K1 II as the king of high ISO and overall IQ. I hope these advancements in IQ payoff and are acknowledged by the community.
02-25-2018, 04:45 AM - 1 Like   #205
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 2,041
QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Really? Pixel shift does not use electronic shutter?
Normal PS does, but the camera should be on a tripod and the scene should be static, so no jelly effect. With handheld "PS" and ES you would risk different amount of jelly in each picture and that would be impossible to stack.
02-25-2018, 07:21 AM - 3 Likes   #206
Pentaxian
photoptimist's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2016
Photos: Albums
Posts: 2,639
Actually, the jelly effect might be exactly what Pentax are using to make dynamic PS work.

Ricoh's statements about dynamic PS hint at an inversion in how they use the SR system for dynamic PS. Rather than use SR sensor data to drive the sensor motion system and mechanically stabilize the sensor, they are letting natural handheld movement of the sensor occur but somehow using the SR data to aid post processing of the image.

Superrsolution through stacking depends on hand-held motions to create subpixel offsets between the stacked images to more completely sample all points in the image in all three color bands. Typical post-processing methods to superresolution stacking require the software to figure out how the stacked frames line up with each other. And it's true that if those frames were jellied, then the frames would not line up at all.

But unlike the post-processing methods, the camera actually knows exactly how each jellied scan line aligns with the frame and other frames -- that's in the SR sensor data which is collected at very high frequency in order to do SR.

There's no reason the camera can't read both the SR sensors at the same time it is reading the rows of the image (all Pentax cameras that have ES do this). For dynamic PS, the camera would use the SR sensor data to track how much jelly-shift is in each scan line. That SR data is then used to correctly shift and orient the scanline pixels into the geometry of the final stacked frame. Or, more correctly,figure out which pixels in which scan lines in which of the four frames have R, G, or B data on a given target pixel in the output.



TL;DR: They may be using SR sensor data to digitally de-jelly each row of pixels and do the stacking on a scanline basis.
02-25-2018, 08:17 AM   #207
Senior Member




Join Date: Jul 2011
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 118
QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Actually, the jelly effect might be exactly what Pentax are using to make dynamic PS work.

Ricoh's statements about dynamic PS hint at an inversion in how they use the SR system for dynamic PS. Rather than use SR sensor data to drive the sensor motion system and mechanically stabilize the sensor, they are letting natural handheld movement of the sensor occur but somehow using the SR data to aid post processing of the image.

Superrsolution through stacking depends on hand-held motions to create subpixel offsets between the stacked images to more completely sample all points in the image in all three color bands. Typical post-processing methods to superresolution stacking require the software to figure out how the stacked frames line up with each other. And it's true that if those frames were jellied, then the frames would not line up at all.

But unlike the post-processing methods, the camera actually knows exactly how each jellied scan line aligns with the frame and other frames -- that's in the SR sensor data which is collected at very high frequency in order to do SR.

There's no reason the camera can't read both the SR sensors at the same time it is reading the rows of the image (all Pentax cameras that have ES do this). For dynamic PS, the camera would use the SR sensor data to track how much jelly-shift is in each scan line. That SR data is then used to correctly shift and orient the scanline pixels into the geometry of the final stacked frame. Or, more correctly,figure out which pixels in which scan lines in which of the four frames have R, G, or B data on a given target pixel in the output.



TL;DR: They may be using SR sensor data to digitally de-jelly each row of pixels and do the stacking on a scanline basis.
If they could easily negate the jelly effect like this it wouldnt be there in the first place.
Even though its possible they use a technical improved SR I believe this camera is more like a small upgrade with available ressources than introducing such a major novelty.
02-25-2018, 08:51 AM - 3 Likes   #208
Pentaxian




Join Date: Feb 2015
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 4,850
QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
they are letting natural handheld movement of the sensor occur but somehow using the SR data to aid post processing of the image.
Oversampling based on having pixels covering a different part of the image at each shot. Coffee drinkers may get higher resolution images after stacking.
02-25-2018, 09:10 AM - 1 Like   #209
Pentaxian
photoptimist's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2016
Photos: Albums
Posts: 2,639
QuoteOriginally posted by Snakeisthestuff Quote
If they could easily negate the jelly effect like this it wouldnt be there in the first place.
Even though its possible they use a technical improved SR I believe this camera is more like a small upgrade with available ressources than introducing such a major novelty.
They could eliminate the jelly effect (that's exactly what happens when SR mechanically stabilizes the sensor). But for the superresolution stacking using SR data to get the subpixel offsets of the scan lines, jelly is actually good and improves the ability of the camera to increase the resolution in the stack.

These days, there are no "major novelties" in any new camera. Everything has been done before. There's just a stream of incremental improvements in resolution, dynamic range, high-ISO IQ, frames per second, video resolution & bit rate, AF, etc. These days, all digital cameras have good performance with some (usually the more expensive ones) having incrementally better performance on one dimension or another.

For some photographers and some photographic situations, dynamic PS of the K-1ii will be big deal in terms of getting much higher resolution images without the bulk, hassle, and set-up delays of a tripod and regular PS.

And for a larger subset of photographers and photographic situations, the K-1ii's better IQ at high ISO will be big deal in terms of getting much better pictures (less noise, less blur, deeper DoF) under dimmer-than-daylight conditions. (They may get to ditch both the tripod and the flash.)

It's up to each photographer to decide what K-1ii can do for them.
02-25-2018, 10:04 AM   #210
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 2,041
QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Actually, the jelly effect might be exactly what Pentax are using to make dynamic PS work.

Ricoh's statements about dynamic PS hint at an inversion in how they use the SR system for dynamic PS. Rather than use SR sensor data to drive the sensor motion system and mechanically stabilize the sensor, they are letting natural handheld movement of the sensor occur but somehow using the SR data to aid post processing of the image.

Superrsolution through stacking depends on hand-held motions to create subpixel offsets between the stacked images to more completely sample all points in the image in all three color bands. Typical post-processing methods to superresolution stacking require the software to figure out how the stacked frames line up with each other. And it's true that if those frames were jellied, then the frames would not line up at all.

But unlike the post-processing methods, the camera actually knows exactly how each jellied scan line aligns with the frame and other frames -- that's in the SR sensor data which is collected at very high frequency in order to do SR.

There's no reason the camera can't read both the SR sensors at the same time it is reading the rows of the image (all Pentax cameras that have ES do this). For dynamic PS, the camera would use the SR sensor data to track how much jelly-shift is in each scan line. That SR data is then used to correctly shift and orient the scanline pixels into the geometry of the final stacked frame. Or, more correctly,figure out which pixels in which scan lines in which of the four frames have R, G, or B data on a given target pixel in the output.



TL;DR: They may be using SR sensor data to digitally de-jelly each row of pixels and do the stacking on a scanline basis.
To be honest I believe the mentioning of SR with the new "PS" is just marketing babbling, and that this is only a slightly new take of stacking in camera with image alignment. I could stack images already in the K-5 but without alignment (and with a weird color temp as a result).
But I'm open for surprises.

Also the slow readout doesn't only create jelly sideways (that could be shifted back with enough SR data) up and down motion of the camera would be mixed in as well and not as easy to restore.

Or maybe they just enabled normal mechanical SR with ES and that is enough to eliminate most of the jelly?
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
blurb, cameras, canon, chip, ff, future, ii, images, impressions, k-1, k1, lens, line, mark, mark ii, mkii, nikon, pentax, pentax mkii, pentax news, pentax rumors, people, pm, post, price, ricoh, sensor, site
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ricoh presentation on the Theta at the IVRPA conference Rnovo Pentax News and Rumors 4 07-02-2017 02:45 PM
Pentax K3 ii vs Canon 5D mark ii mogge Welcomes and Introductions 49 03-27-2016 02:39 AM
Official Betting Pool for the Pentaxforums.com million post mark! jct us101 General Talk 4 04-07-2010 07:31 PM
Official samples & official web sites nosnoop Pentax News and Rumors 29 01-25-2008 06:12 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:17 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top