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02-26-2018, 07:46 AM   #241
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
I find that people who read and trust DXO lab tests before doing their own tests are very much influenced by the chart results that they see and even if they do try to make a comparation between cameras after they read DXO results, their mind/opinion is already influenced by those charts. You don't have to believe me. Just pick 2 cameras that you don't know anything about, with similar specs, and do some comparation tests in 2 or 3 real life shooting conditions. Write your findings and conclusions and then see if they match the DXO charts. You may have some surprises.

Do you know why almost everybody who doesn't shoot Pentax thinks that Pentax af is so bad that it can't track a snail? Because even if they have the chance to shoot with a K-3 or with a K1 and a 70-200mm lens, in their mind Pentax is so bad at tracking because they saw DPreview or Tony Northrup review, or they read about it on the internet. In their minds already is a partial conclusion in which Pentax has poor af. This has a lot of influence on them when they are performing af tests. One way of making them change their opinion is to shoot with the Pentax gear next to them while they are shooting with Nikon, Canon, or whatever camera and get better results at the end of the tests. Only then Tony Northrup, DXO and DPreview influence starts to dissapear.

---------- Post added 02-26-18 at 02:29 PM ----------



I don't agree, but I may be able to prove it with a D610 vs D750. Both have 24mp, both are full frame cameras and I can borrow both from my friends... If I get the chance to go out this weekend, I will send you the raw files.
What are you intending to prove with the D610 versus the D750 comparison? According to DXO Mark they are exactly the same sensor. The difference clearly is the body built around them, the shutter, auto focus module, etc.

02-26-2018, 07:57 AM   #242
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
What are you intending to prove with the D610 versus the D750 comparison? According to DXO Mark they are exactly the same sensor. The difference clearly is the body built around them, the shutter, auto focus module, etc.
Well, this "exactly the same sensor" performs differently on D750 when comes to noise at ISO 3200, 6400, 12800. I have friends who are using D750 and D610 as back-up for indoor sports (handball and tennis) and there are differences which according to DXO should not be visible.
02-26-2018, 08:10 AM   #243
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Well, this "exactly the same sensor" performs differently on D750 when comes to noise at ISO 3200, 6400, 12800. I have friends who are using D750 and D610 as back-up for indoor sports (handball and tennis) and there are differences which according to DXO should not be visible.
I have a hard time believing you will get two shots that are close enough to the same with regard to framing, lighting, etc that you could truly compare them. The studio scene on DP Review is the best I've seen for being able to eye-ball the differences and if they are there between the D610 and the D750, I can't see them.

Studio shot comparison: Digital Photography Review
02-26-2018, 11:33 AM   #244
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
In the lab, with controled lighting. It's like fuel consumption on cars. In perfect conditions you get the values specified by producers, but in real conditions is almost imposible to achieve those values.
Good analogy regarding tests versus in the field. I will tell you that my (former) Ford F150 Ecoboost rated fuel economy and my (current) Ram EcoDiesel were almost the same in the controlled environment. However, my Ram is much much closer to the quoted numbers in real everyday driving, and my driving environment or habits haven't changed.

So while lab results are important, the true mark of a product is how they handle the everyday environment. Some do better than others. You can't assume that once outside the lab, two different cameras will be proportionally "less perfect".

One (hopefully the Pentax) may be better able to stay closer to the quoted specs. Is that the better camera? It is if you don't take all of your pictures in a lab.

02-26-2018, 12:08 PM   #245
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I have a hard time believing you will get two shots that are close enough to the same with regard to framing, lighting, etc that you could truly compare them. The studio scene on DP Review is the best I've seen for being able to eye-ball the differences and if they are there between the D610 and the D750, I can't see them.

Studio shot comparison: Digital Photography Review
When we want to have fun by testing cameras in the field, we put both cameras on a tripod very close one to the other and we trigger the cameras using movement triggers (I don't know the name in english), the ones that we use for wildlife. If the trigger sense movement it triggers the cameras. We add mixed lights and some "walls" with brown and blue color and then we start shooting. The results are different than shooting the same subject in perfect conditions, like DXO and others are doing.
02-26-2018, 12:21 PM - 1 Like   #246
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I have a hard time believing you will get two shots that are close enough to the same with regard to framing, lighting, etc that you could truly compare them. The studio scene on DP Review is the best I've seen for being able to eye-ball the differences and if they are there between the D610 and the D750, I can't see them.

Studio shot comparison: Digital Photography Review
I actually find IR's comparometer the best tool and you can defenately see a difference between the d610 and d750. With DPR they take a picture of a pictures and other flat things. Atleast with IR its more of a 3 dimensional target and the results seem much more consistent than dpr's.

Imaging Resource "Comparometer" ? Digital Camera Image Comparison Page
02-26-2018, 01:11 PM   #247
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Pentax K1 Mark II Brochure in pdf format

Pretty cool !!!

PENTAX K-1 II Brochure | PENTAXever.com
02-26-2018, 03:07 PM   #248
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I am buying at least one more lens first but I may get the upgrade before Sept. 30th. I like the idea of better High ISO performance; just not enough to buy another camera. Even if I don't upgrade, the offering is pretty nice for us that have already bought into the K1.

02-26-2018, 08:22 PM   #249
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Maybe so. DXO Mark gives a higher sports iso score to the D810 over the D850 (the K-1 beats both of them). Regardless, my main point is that the D810 is still on the market and it is still the camera that I would compare the K-1 and K-1 II to.
What that sport score in tails are unknowns that DXO has give priority to.
If you look at the SNR of both cameras they are equal and with the decrease read noise the D850 pulls ahead at everything above Iso 100

And how does the K1 beat the Nikons
If you look at manufactures iso 3200 the D850 gets 3.7dB and the D810 gets 3.8dB while the K1 gets 30dB you also have to consider the d810 and the D850 are usually shot using an exposure that is 2/3 of a stop lower than that of what pentax would get
All you have to do is look at the iso sensitivity at DXO that show that Nikon is using a smaller exposure

Last edited by Ian Stuart Forsyth; 02-26-2018 at 08:33 PM.
02-27-2018, 12:58 AM - 2 Likes   #250
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QuoteOriginally posted by Belnan Quote
I actually find IR's comparometer the best tool and you can defenately see a difference between the d610 and d750. With DPR they take a picture of a pictures and other flat things. Atleast with IR its more of a 3 dimensional target and the results seem much more consistent than dpr's.

Imaging Resource "Comparometer" ? Digital Camera Image Comparison Page
Yes, it's quite visible the difference in the Imaging resources test compared to the one from DPreview website. And bare in mind that this is still a lab test where you can set a custom white balance and you have controled lights. In real life shooting conditions the difference is even more visible. But, people trust DXO and I don't intend to make them change their minds. I just think that there are other/better tests that can be done if I want to see which camera will give me the best results in various shooting conditions.
02-27-2018, 07:53 AM - 2 Likes   #251
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Yes, it's quite visible the difference in the Imaging resources test compared to the one from DPreview website. And bare in mind that this is still a lab test where you can set a custom white balance and you have controled lights. In real life shooting conditions the difference is even more visible. But, people trust DXO and I don't intend to make them change their minds. I just think that there are other/better tests that can be done if I want to see which camera will give me the best results in various shooting conditions.
Those are good points and the show that as detailed as all these tests may seem, they don't always fully-characterize sensor performance. That's especially true with respect to color and performance under less controlled lighting.

Do any of the test quantify the RGB channel gains of the sensor (which are required to correct for differences in the chip's sensitivity to different wavelengths and the specific design of the color filter array). There's some tricky design trade-offs in the color filter array that trade-off color saturation and ISO which then affects the required gain on each of the RGB channel and the "color" of the noise in the resulting images.

Less-perfect light also has a impact. Tungsten light, for example, has about 1 stop less green light and 2 stops less blue light than does daylight (I say "about" because it's a more complicated function of the sensor's color filter array, too). Thus, an ISO "1600" image taken in tungsten light, the green channel is probably being boosted to ISO 3200 and the blue channel is probably being boosted to ISO 6400. Two cameras might have identical performance at ISO 1600 but if they differ in performance at higher ISOs, then a tungsten-lit scene will look different for the two cameras.
02-27-2018, 08:20 AM   #252
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
This kind of "debates" are going and going (sometimes in the wrong direction) because there are no pictures involved in these discussions. There are to many technical comments and I rather prefer to see 2-3-5 images than 50 comments which are kind of the same in all the topics.

Sure, there will probably going to be debates even when pictures are involved into discussions, but at least I can rely on what my eyes see in those images rather then believing what someone who has 2000 comments on a forum and not a single image posted (I'm not referring to you ) has to say. Images always speak better than words.
Is there a disinterested party that owns both cameras, similar quality lenses (or the same lens in both mounts) who has made / will make a controlled, real-world test with images to display?

Not likely. Yet the response to these contentions is the same on every thread, for months and months and months.

The cameras are indistinguishable in image quality and have different collateral strengths and weaknesses. It comes down to a matter of preference. These arguments are why I’m so fatigued by the whole thing. @redpit has raised my banner, which is good.
02-27-2018, 10:25 AM - 6 Likes   #253
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Well I have to admit that yesterday I pre-ordered the camera through B&H. Very simple reason. I was going to purchase another battery for my K1 but since B&H has sweetened the deal a bit more by adding a Pentax battery at no extra cost it made perfect sense take the deal. Who is going to turn down a free battery?
02-27-2018, 11:32 AM   #254
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QuoteOriginally posted by gaweidert Quote
Well I have to admit that yesterday I pre-ordered the camera through B&H. Very simple reason. I was going to purchase another battery for my K1 but since B&H has sweetened the deal a bit more by adding a Pentax battery at no extra cost it made perfect sense take the deal. Who is going to turn down a free battery?
Nice reasoning!
02-27-2018, 02:51 PM   #255
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QuoteOriginally posted by gaweidert Quote
Well I have to admit that yesterday I pre-ordered the camera through B&H. Very simple reason. I was going to purchase another battery for my K1 but since B&H has sweetened the deal a bit more by adding a Pentax battery at no extra cost it made perfect sense take the deal. Who is going to turn down a free battery?
Makes perfect sense to me.
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