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02-27-2018, 05:53 PM   #256
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Is there a disinterested party that owns both cameras, similar quality lenses (or the same lens in both mounts) who has made / will make a controlled, real-world test with images to display?

Not likely. Yet the response to these contentions is the same on every thread, for months and months and months.

The cameras are indistinguishable in image quality and have different collateral strengths and weaknesses. It comes down to a matter of preference. These arguments are why Iím so fatigued by the whole thing. @redpit has raised my banner, which is good.
Very true.

For the most part full frame sensors of a similar generation have similar image quality. What differs are things like frame rates, video functions, etc. -- most of which is just software.

That said, I have a feeling that the accelerator chip is going to push the K-1 II towards the top in terms of still image quality (which is still the most important thing to me).

03-01-2018, 06:27 PM   #257
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
But when will Panasonic release a FF camera, Madbrain, which is clearly what all us K-1 owners wanted, paid for and got?
I wanted FF badly, but I need it for video, not just photo. And as such, I'm not a K-1 owner, as Pentax seems to have completely given up on even attempting to keep up with video needs.

Sony alpha A7S II would fit my needs, but there is a 30min recording limit, no 60 fps 4K video, and bit rate inferior to Panasonic.

GH5s is almost everything I wanted, except the FF. The dual native ISO makes it particularly interesting. They did reduce the MP significantly on the photo side, just like Sony did with the A7S II. Maybe one just can't design a camera that's great for both video and photo ... Unfortunately, Pentax isn't doing any model target at video.
03-01-2018, 06:43 PM - 4 Likes   #258
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QuoteOriginally posted by madbrain Quote
Unfortunately, Pentax isn't doing any model target at video.
Correct ... use something else, mate.

I use a Canon G7x or my phone for video, with my Pentaxes, I couldn't care less.

I'm in this hobby for high quality stills, I don't even know where the video switch on my K-1 is.
03-01-2018, 07:10 PM - 1 Like   #259
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I can't agree more

03-02-2018, 04:06 AM   #260
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QuoteOriginally posted by madbrain Quote
I wanted FF badly, but I need it for video, not just photo. And as such, I'm not a K-1 owner, as Pentax seems to have completely given up on even attempting to keep up with video needs.

Sony alpha A7S II would fit my needs, but there is a 30min recording limit, no 60 fps 4K video, and bit rate inferior to Panasonic.

GH5s is almost everything I wanted, except the FF. The dual native ISO makes it particularly interesting. They did reduce the MP significantly on the photo side, just like Sony did with the A7S II. Maybe one just can't design a camera that's great for both video and photo ... Unfortunately, Pentax isn't doing any model target at video.
I really think a smaller sensor camera is going to fit your needs. Full frame mirrorless cameras probably have recording limits due to over heating issues as much as due to any kind of regulations.

I wouldn't expect a K1 II sequel before the end of 2019, but I would think that Pentax would stick 4K in there at that point.
03-02-2018, 06:25 AM   #261
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QuoteOriginally posted by madbrain Quote
Yawn. For anyone who has been waiting for a proper video camera, this is no upgrade. Guess it won't ever be coming from Pentax. Good news is the Panasonic GH5s is out, and I'm saving for it. Wish it was FF too.
Pretty sure the next one will be better at video...
I sincerely hope for at least 100p in FullHD, and more options, like being able to choose from a far more widespread variety of formats, framerate and !bitrates! ...
Actually that shouldn't be THAT difficult, since even my RX100 IV (and some other compacts) can do all that already and it didn't cost me 2000Euros...
(I could use the little fella for the short movie, I am planning, but I feel, coming from a FF sensor, that would look way better)
Though I admit, it may be better to rent or buy a Sony A7s(app. 1500 Euro) for such a project...

It's kinda hard to understand for the non-hardcore PENTAX-fan, why a 2000Euro flagship FF let's you miss those features ... And even when you look at it's photographic core -featureset, let alone...have a burst framerate of only 4fps
Where a new FF camera from an other maker that arrives at the same time and costs the same, not only offers mostly everything from what listed above, but also 4K, a lightning fast Af-system, several hundred AF-Points,(I guess at least 120fps FullHD) slow motion video recording and a burst rate of app. 10 fps...
Admittedly it doesn't offer 36mp, but many people ask their selves, if they would have needed that much megapixel on the FF in first place, given the fact that a used K-30 with fixed aperture, only costs
app. 200Euros and offers app. the same burst rate...

Anyway, all that moaning and yawning, doesn't make any sense, madbrain. I just wanted to make clear that I understand you and I also feel the need for a major(if not to say "galaxies moving") improvement...
As much as all the other Pentaxland even though they would never admit...
I understand( and you should that too if you still feel the PENTAX-System is for you) that it's hard for Pentax, since I guess they are very, if not solely dependent on image-sensor makers like sony (or Sony alone) so they have a hard time bringing something (even nearly!) equivalent to the market, at the same time Sony does...
But IMHO, despite we should understand those circumstances, ...we should indeed also keep up complaining about what we think needs improvement,
cause that minimizes the chances that RICOH could try to play around with more bells and whistles(leds, additional wheels, explicitly presenting minor chipset changes, weird display mechanisms<though i actually like that one>) in their next top-tier products...
Instead of doing a real HUGE upgrade to the core features, of what makes a good camera package, that could save the brand from stumbling into absolute valuelessness...(and therefore completely kill it off in the end)

---------- Post added 03-02-18 at 07:02 AM ----------

So I am really with you, there are so many 4k tv-sets for a bargain, and also on desktop monitors, it is establihing as the new standard right now... as it is also in home entertainment, as every streaming service offers a wide variety of 4K material right now... even my grandma has a 4k tv-set.
In Japan they are introducing 8K right now...
And since Canon has been shitstormed too, for not offering 4K in their 6DII, they now send the M50 for app. 500-600 bucks into the race with nearly every gimmick possible(for them)...
So looking at the price tag, that will kill off any A6xxx sales if they add in the right advertising... So even the cheapest NEX/E cameras from Sony soon will feature what you want.
M43 top tier products offered 4k for a while now.
And it's there on more and more consumer cameras including low-end smartphones... So I really feel we should be positive about that in any upcoming camera...from now on.
I mean the A7III is not only a happy event for FE glass owners it also lifts the bang-for-buck standard(especially looking at the fact that it's dynamic range is en par with the K-1's)
No matter what the usual suspects in their angst-positions are stating, the chances are smaller than small, that we get more sympathy-shag-gear... up next... It should be clear even to the most conservative Ricoh-Imaging, that they even could/should perform seppuku if they try that one more time.

I mean, if RICOH doesn't step into the game with the gear that follows from now on(not only 4k, but especially way better AF and better burst rates), even my humble self, will jump off that ship that I loved for so long and also my father and grandfather used to shoot with, because if other stuff is even cheaper (Canon M50 f.i. and everything that will follow it) but offers way way more... THEN not even the best haptic feeling, could make me NOT feel like an utterly idiot, if I would stay.
I sincerely hope they step up.
Would be sad to carry such a nice design-line and all that glass to it's grave.
03-02-2018, 07:36 AM - 12 Likes   #262
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Some of us do not care about video at all. We care about photography, not cinematography.

In fact, given the unavoidable technological trade-offs in adding "good" video to larger sensor cameras, we actually hope Pentax does not waste any product development money on video or do anything that compromises getting the best possible still image performance.

Let Canon, Sony, and Nikon fight over who can offer the best video for grandma's TV. Let other camera makers be jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none. Please leave Pentax out of the video rat race.
03-02-2018, 07:58 AM - 2 Likes   #263
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Want video? Buy a video camera.
I really wonder about the market penetration of 4K monitors and TVs when I hear everyone who wants Pentax to improve their video squalling about 4k. Am I so far behind that I shouldn't be happy with high quality 1080P monitors and televisions? If and when I upgrade my laptop, I will probably go for a 4k screen just for editing images. Until then I will be happy with what I have.
Bandwidth requirements for streaming are also problematic when you live rurally and in areas without broadband internet. What good is a 4K video if you can't upload or stream it?

03-02-2018, 08:28 AM - 1 Like   #264
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I kinda agree about no video. I mean why cant my phone take pictures as good as my dslr? No one expects the best phone to keep up, certainly not someone who buys a dslr. To me the panasonic is the video equivalent to the great phone camera, its a compromise that works for most like the phone camera does.
03-02-2018, 08:58 AM   #265
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Some of us do not care about video at all. We care about photography, not cinematography.

In fact, given the unavoidable technological trade-offs in adding "good" video to larger sensor cameras, we actually hope Pentax does not waste any product development money on video or do anything that compromises getting the best possible still image performance.

Let Canon, Sony, and Nikon fight over who can offer the best video for grandma's TV. Let other camera makers be jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none. Please leave Pentax out of the video rat race.
PF 2006: Full frame? We don't care about full frame! We got excellent APS image quality with a line up of quality APS lenses! Who needs to be in the full frame rat race?
PF 2016: Full frame K-1 is the greatest innovation ever! Look at that new tilt LCD! Pentax being Pentax!
03-02-2018, 09:15 AM - 3 Likes   #266
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QuoteOriginally posted by wjjstu Quote
PF 2006: Full frame? We don't care about full frame! We got excellent APS image quality with a line up of quality APS lenses! Who needs to be in the full frame rat race?
PF 2016: Full frame K-1 is the greatest innovation ever! Look at that new tilt LCD! Pentax being Pentax!
Photoptomist has explained very succinctly in other threads and probably here also, why optimizing a sensor for video recording is bad for the noise levels of the sensor when shooting still images. People buy Pentax for the still images not for video. I have used the video on a few occasions and if you don't do the shaky cam thing, it isn't that bad for home use.
Your comment adds very little to the conversation. Are you attempting humor?
03-02-2018, 09:45 AM   #267
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QuoteOriginally posted by SSGGeezer Quote
Photoptomist has explained very succinctly in other threads and probably here also, why optimizing a sensor for video recording is bad for the noise levels of the sensor when shooting still images. People buy Pentax for the still images not for video. I have used the video on a few occasions and if you don't do the shaky cam thing, it isn't that bad for home use.
Your comment adds very little to the conversation. Are you attempting humor?
Brand X doesn't do Y, here are a list of not convincing rationalizations why it's for the best. Brand X a few years down the road begins doing Y. The tune predictably changes. Just you wait for the day when video oriented sensors will be the only option on the market.
03-02-2018, 10:21 AM - 2 Likes   #268
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QuoteOriginally posted by wjjstu Quote
Brand X doesn't do Y, here are a list of not convincing rationalizations why it's for the best. Brand X a few years down the road begins doing Y. The tune predictably changes. Just you wait for the day when video oriented sensors will be the only option on the market.
I, for one, will weep for the loss of choice in the market and the triumph of mediocrity.

I, for one, will never want video and will grumble if I have to pay for it, it clutters the user interface of my camera (I love how the K-1's video switch is so hidden), or it means lower IQ than what could have been achieved with a stills-only sensor.

i've never understood the ethos that insists that all products must converge to a single concept of performance. It's as if we can't have pick-up trucks and sports cars and sedans and minivans in the market. Why must all camera makers be all things to all people? That's especially true today in which any product maker can sell to any of the 1-2 billion middle-class consumers on the planet. A product that only satisfies 1% of the market (and does not satisfy 99% of the market) can actually sell 10 million units. In this day and age, there's no reason to only build mass-market products for mass-market tastes. Niche products can be very successful even if only a tiny percentage of people want them.

(P.S. my "tune" always favored FF because I've always wanted better still photo IQ and basic physics means bigger pixels do that. I'd move to MF if basic physics did not make lenses so big.)
03-02-2018, 10:40 AM   #269
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Some of us do not care about video at all. We care about photography, not cinematography.

In fact, given the unavoidable technological trade-offs in adding "good" video to larger sensor cameras, we actually hope Pentax does not waste any product development money on video or do anything that compromises getting the best possible still image performance.

Let Canon, Sony, and Nikon fight over who can offer the best video for grandma's TV. Let other camera makers be jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none. Please leave Pentax out of the video rat race.
+1 Totally agree!
03-02-2018, 10:54 AM   #270
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Niche products can be very successful even if only a tiny percentage of people want them.
If the price is high enough to pay off R&D, then a nice product can bring good business. Leica adopted that niche product approach: low volume, high price. The Pentax offering compete with Canon and Nikon, with the prices of Canon/Nikon but with the manufacturing quantities of Leica. So what happens to Pentax is they tightened their budgets on SG&A (being much less visible than Leica in B&M shops), but now for Pentax the R&D is also tightened (lenses rebadged from Tamron, now from Tokina)... and nothing new at CP+ this year: lenses not yet released after a year of teasing, no D500 like body, and a re-release of the K1, 85 1.4 postponed to 2019, sounds pretty flat to me, I don't get the point of postponing prime lenses for the Pentax K1 line, even after 2 years of release to market. I can see lots of users getting second hand or older primes, but I don't like to go that route. I'll continue to use the Pentax gear I have, but it is highly likely that I'll swap brands down the road.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 03-02-2018 at 11:04 AM.
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