The official presentation (Ricoh) of the Pentax Mark II

robjmitchell · 02-22-2018, 03:53 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Igor123

I'm "cautiously positive" to the improvements if they do what is claimed, but can someone explain how a couple of these impovements are possible; the iso-improvement and colors...don't we have the same sensor in mk1 and 2, and thus the same raw data? So what is done is better in-camera processing resulting in better jpegs (or better cooked raws? could save some work in pp even if so..), or am I missing something basic here?

Or to rephrase, is there anything that the new hardware can do regarding iso and color, that can't be done in pp? (and of so, what does it do and how?)

Its speculation how it functions, but the Accelerator is correcting the noisy pixels at the base ISO before it reaches the processor. Normal NR just smears the noise between pixels to try and hide it which destroys your detail. There is a stop of difference between the K3 and Kp with the same sensors, so the presumption is that the K1ii will see the same benefit. The low res images look at least 2 stops better than my K3 so I have no reason to doubt the benefits.

**Rondec** · 02-22-2018, 03:59 AM - **9 Likes**

I don't understand the angst in these threads. Pentax is releasing an upgraded version of the K-1. It will offer better low light/high iso images and more options with pixel shift. It will also have an extra 'I' next to the first 'I' on the K-1. Maybe it will have some improved auto focus algorithms on tracking.

In addition, Pentax will upgrade the cameras of those who already own K-1s (for a fee).

If these improvements don't do anything for you then that's fine. You've saved quite a bit of money. On the other hand, you can't really knock people who are, say, excited by better high iso on a camera that is already good at it and even more pleased that they can upgrade their current camera, rather than selling it and purchasing new.

Will I upgrade? I'm not honestly sure. I do shoot a lot of pixel shift and it isn't unusual that I'm shooting my kid's activities at iso 6400. Even if I don't upgrade, I have no reason to attack the improvements in the updated camera. Just because a piece of gear isn't something that fits my style of shooting doesn't mean that Pentax shouldn't release it. Unfortunately, it feels as though a lot of folks approach these discussions thinking that Pentax should design a camera specifically for them, leaving off the features they don't want/need and including the things they do and pricing it where they want. Only then, will Pentax be successful...

With fans like these, who needs enemies?

**savoche** · 02-22-2018, 04:17 AM

Originally posted by robjmitchell

The 645z is pretty nifty on the low light front

...and the 645Z Mk II will be even niftier

(No, I have no idea of what, if, or when Ricoh plans anything new!)

**clackers** · 02-22-2018, 04:22 AM

Originally posted by robjmitchell

Its speculation how it functions, but the Accelerator is correcting the noisy pixels at the base ISO before it reaches the processor. Normal NR just smears the noise between pixels to try and hide it which destroys your detail.

Well, there isn't noise between pixels, Rob, there are only pixels and their values, what's this thing do differently, do you guess?

Conventional noise reduction involves neighbour sampling ... you see one green pixel surrounded by red pixels, so you replace it with a red pixel also. It's lossy.

**savoche** · 02-22-2018, 04:31 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Rondec

Unfortunately, it feels as though a lot of folks approach these discussions thinking that Pentax should design a camera specifically for them, leaving off the features they don't want/need and including the things they do and pricing it where they want.

I think you are right. Unfortunately.

redpit · 02-22-2018, 04:34 AM

Originally posted by i83N

Good news, now I hope my local Lithuanian Pentax represents will provide it too...

It will be done centrally for Europe. For Greece I also will have to be sent in France or Germany most probably

**Rondec** · 02-22-2018, 04:35 AM - **1 Like**

I guess I would add that if Pentax released an A9 killer camera with 20 frames per second 4K video and priced it at 3500 dollars, I would both be excited (to see what others could do with such a beast) and completely uninterested (not for me). I know they won't released such a camera, but I'm still glad when new products come out for K mount -- whether or not they are "revolutionary."

Dan Rentea · 02-22-2018, 04:43 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

I don't understand the angst in these threads. Pentax is releasing an upgraded version of the K-1. It will offer better low light/high iso images and more options with pixel shift. It will also have an extra 'I' next to the first 'I' on the K-1. Maybe it will have some improved auto focus algorithms on tracking.

In addition, Pentax will upgrade the cameras of those who already own K-1s.

If these improvements don't do anything for you then that's fine. You've saved quite a bit of money. On the other hand, you can't really knock people who are, say, excited by better high iso on a camera that is already good at it and even more pleased that they can upgrade their current camera, rather than selling it and purchasing new.

Will I upgrade? I'm not honestly sure. I do shoot a lot of pixel shift and it isn't unusual that I'm shooting my kid's activities at iso 6400. Even if I don't upgrade, I have no reason to attack the improvements in the updated camera. Just because a piece of gear isn't something that fits my style of shooting doesn't mean that Pentax shouldn't release it. Unfortunately, it feels as though a lot of folks approach these discussions thinking that Pentax should design a camera specifically for them, leaving off the features they don't want/need and including the things they do and pricing it where they want. Only then, will Pentax be successful...

With fans like these, who needs enemies?

There is no way to please everybody, regardless of the manufacturer. And it may look like people is negative, but for some, it is not called negativity, but the real experience from the past. I gave the example between K3 and K3 II at the only 2 things I was interested at that time: ISO and af. I skipped K3 as an upgrade from K-5 II and jumped straight to K-3 II because of the so called improvements in af algorithms and ISO which Ricoh said that there were added to K-3 II.

You seems to be into landscapes and because of that you tend to look with different eyes at K1 Mark II which was targeted from the beginning at landscape photographers, and tend to "close your eyes" at things like af, burst rate, 4k video, buffer capacity, SD writing speed, tethered transfer... These would have been features which many people would expect to be improved in a Mark II version of K1 (even if just slightly). So yes, a lot of people are somehow disappointed in the K1 Mark II specs, even in Canon, Sony, Fuji, Olympus and Nikon boats.

Igor123 · 02-22-2018, 04:43 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by clackers

Well, there isn't noise between pixels, Rob, there are only pixels and their values, what's this thing do differently, do you guess?

Conventional noise reduction involves neighbour sampling ... you see one green pixel surrounded by red pixels, so you replace it with a red pixel also. It's lossy.

Yes, my thoughts as well...for me, even if it's "just" a really smart NR algo that is better than most commercial ones, baked in, "cooking" the raws but on a very restrictive scale resulting in what appears to be better high-iso raws, that could still be a good feature, but still not something requiring hardware (other than for faster processing).

The 14-bit data should be able to house enough DR (and a fair bit of noise) without giving the internal processor any advantage in acting on the "unprocessed" raw data ....so I'm not sure what's left that it can do...perhaps things like sensor temperature can be incorporated into the NR to give a superior result compared to traditional NR?...or some sneaky blackframe-ish subtraction or similar based on previous images or knowledge of some kind of noise bias of individual pixels over time or some other tricks like that? I guess it's their secret sauce =), but if anyone knows and can "prove" that it's not just good built-in PP, I'd be all the happier =)

(But I guess it will be easier to compare this time; electronics and other vary quite a bit between the k3 and kp, so attributing all noise improvements to the accelerator may be hard to prove, but since they even offer an upgrade this time without a sensor change, I guess mk1+ software pp and mk2 would be easier and more reliable)

**Belnan** · 02-22-2018, 04:46 AM

Well Im interested in seeing a side by side comparison between the K-1 no mark and K-1 mark II. The k-1 already seems to be pretty good so Ill be surprised if there is any meaningful improvement in IQ.

Andrea K · 02-22-2018, 04:47 AM - **1 Like**

"As expected, the accelerator unit incorporated into the PENTAX K-1 Mark II not only helped achieve the super-high top sensitivity of ISO 819200 by employing the combination of the PRIME IV imaging engine and the 35mm full-frame sensor, but also greatly improved image quality at normal sensitivity ranges. "

"The AF system featuring a new algorithm assures high-precision focusing even with moving subjects. "

Shut up and take my money!!!

**clackers** · 02-22-2018, 04:53 AM

Originally posted by Dan Rentea

d tend to "close your eyes" at things like af, burst rate, 4k video, buffer capacity, SD writing speed, tethered transfer... These would have been features which many people would expect to be improved in a Mark II version of K1

With all due respect, Dan, I don't think many Pentaxians can\would pay $2000 for a Pentax equivalent of the APS-C Nikon D500 or $4500 for a Pentax equivalent of the FF Sony A9, I reckon you're wrong about that.

You didn't, for example. You're super serious about your wildlife pictures but you went for a cheap Canon 6D when you jumped brands, right, and have ended up with a 5D instead of a 1Dx?

Gimbal · 02-22-2018, 04:58 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Andrea K

Shut up and take my money!!!

Ok, I will. Just send it to me.

Kunzite · 02-22-2018, 04:59 AM

While Pentax is telling us how they're planning to sell the K-1 for a longer period, we should expect a new sensor (4K, burst speed), new processor (buffer, SD writing speed, USB) and new AF system? In other words, a completely new camera - the exact opposite of what Pentax is telling us?

fsge · 02-22-2018, 05:02 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by clackers

With all due respect, Dan, I don't think many Pentaxians would pay $2000 for a Pentax equivalent of the APS-C Nikon D500 or $4500 for a Pentax equivalent of the FF Sony A9, I reckon you're wrong about that.

You didn't, for example, you're super serious about your pictures but you went for a cheap Canon 6D when you jumped brands, right, and have ended up with a 5D instead of a 1Dx?

I doubt as well.
People secretely hope Pentax will deliver a D500 like APSC for half the price, which is unrealistic. Also, there is no need to develop something that replicates an existing product in same segment, it has to be and will be different.
At last a top APSC would eat in just released K1 II plate...

02-22-2018, 03:59 AM - 9 Likes	#62
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,652	I don't understand the angst in these threads. Pentax is releasing an upgraded version of the K-1. It will offer better low light/high iso images and more options with pixel shift. It will also have an extra 'I' next to the first 'I' on the K-1. Maybe it will have some improved auto focus algorithms on tracking. In addition, Pentax will upgrade the cameras of those who already own K-1s (for a fee). If these improvements don't do anything for you then that's fine. You've saved quite a bit of money. On the other hand, you can't really knock people who are, say, excited by better high iso on a camera that is already good at it and even more pleased that they can upgrade their current camera, rather than selling it and purchasing new. Will I upgrade? I'm not honestly sure. I do shoot a lot of pixel shift and it isn't unusual that I'm shooting my kid's activities at iso 6400. Even if I don't upgrade, I have no reason to attack the improvements in the updated camera. Just because a piece of gear isn't something that fits my style of shooting doesn't mean that Pentax shouldn't release it. Unfortunately, it feels as though a lot of folks approach these discussions thinking that Pentax should design a camera specifically for them, leaving off the features they don't want/need and including the things they do and pricing it where they want. Only then, will Pentax be successful... With fans like these, who needs enemies? Last edited by Rondec; 02-22-2018 at 10:24 AM.

02-22-2018, 04:47 AM - 1 Like	#71
Andrea K Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Rome, Italy Posts: 822	"As expected, the accelerator unit incorporated into the PENTAX K-1 Mark II not only helped achieve the super-high top sensitivity of ISO 819200 by employing the combination of the PRIME IV imaging engine and the 35mm full-frame sensor, but also greatly improved image quality at normal sensitivity ranges. " "The AF system featuring a new algorithm assures high-precision focusing even with moving subjects. " Shut up and take my money!!! Last edited by Andrea K; 02-22-2018 at 04:57 AM.

02-22-2018, 04:53 AM	#72
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by Dan Rentea d tend to "close your eyes" at things like af, burst rate, 4k video, buffer capacity, SD writing speed, tethered transfer... These would have been features which many people would expect to be improved in a Mark II version of K1 With all due respect, Dan, I don't think many Pentaxians can\would pay $2000 for a Pentax equivalent of the APS-C Nikon D500 or $4500 for a Pentax equivalent of the FF Sony A9, I reckon you're wrong about that. You didn't, for example. You're super serious about your wildlife pictures but you went for a cheap Canon 6D when you jumped brands, right, and have ended up with a 5D instead of a 1Dx? Last edited by clackers; 02-22-2018 at 05:03 AM.

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02-22-2018, 03:53 AM - 1 Like	#61
robjmitchell Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Melbourne Aus Posts: 1,776	Originally posted by Igor123 I'm "cautiously positive" to the improvements if they do what is claimed, but can someone explain how a couple of these impovements are possible; the iso-improvement and colors...don't we have the same sensor in mk1 and 2, and thus the same raw data? So what is done is better in-camera processing resulting in better jpegs (or better cooked raws? could save some work in pp even if so..), or am I missing something basic here? Or to rephrase, is there anything that the new hardware can do regarding iso and color, that can't be done in pp? (and of so, what does it do and how?) Its speculation how it functions, but the Accelerator is correcting the noisy pixels at the base ISO before it reaches the processor. Normal NR just smears the noise between pixels to try and hide it which destroys your detail. There is a stop of difference between the K3 and Kp with the same sensors, so the presumption is that the K1ii will see the same benefit. The low res images look at least 2 stops better than my K3 so I have no reason to doubt the benefits.

02-22-2018, 04:17 AM	#63
savoche Master of the obvious Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Lowlands of Norway Posts: 18,311	Originally posted by robjmitchell The 645z is pretty nifty on the low light front ...and the 645Z Mk II will be even niftier (No, I have no idea of what, if, or when Ricoh plans anything new!)

02-22-2018, 04:22 AM	#64
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by robjmitchell Its speculation how it functions, but the Accelerator is correcting the noisy pixels at the base ISO before it reaches the processor. Normal NR just smears the noise between pixels to try and hide it which destroys your detail. Well, there isn't noise between pixels, Rob, there are only pixels and their values, what's this thing do differently, do you guess? Conventional noise reduction involves neighbour sampling ... you see one green pixel surrounded by red pixels, so you replace it with a red pixel also. It's lossy.

02-22-2018, 04:31 AM - 1 Like	#65
savoche Master of the obvious Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Lowlands of Norway Posts: 18,311	Originally posted by Rondec Unfortunately, it feels as though a lot of folks approach these discussions thinking that Pentax should design a camera specifically for them, leaving off the features they don't want/need and including the things they do and pricing it where they want. I think you are right. Unfortunately.

02-22-2018, 04:34 AM	#66
redpit Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Greece Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,857	Originally posted by i83N Good news, now I hope my local Lithuanian Pentax represents will provide it too... It will be done centrally for Europe. For Greece I also will have to be sent in France or Germany most probably

02-22-2018, 04:35 AM - 1 Like	#67
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,652	I guess I would add that if Pentax released an A9 killer camera with 20 frames per second 4K video and priced it at 3500 dollars, I would both be excited (to see what others could do with such a beast) and completely uninterested (not for me). I know they won't released such a camera, but I'm still glad when new products come out for K mount -- whether or not they are "revolutionary."

02-22-2018, 04:43 AM	#68
Dan Rentea Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Bucharest Posts: 1,716	Originally posted by Rondec I don't understand the angst in these threads. Pentax is releasing an upgraded version of the K-1. It will offer better low light/high iso images and more options with pixel shift. It will also have an extra 'I' next to the first 'I' on the K-1. Maybe it will have some improved auto focus algorithms on tracking. In addition, Pentax will upgrade the cameras of those who already own K-1s. If these improvements don't do anything for you then that's fine. You've saved quite a bit of money. On the other hand, you can't really knock people who are, say, excited by better high iso on a camera that is already good at it and even more pleased that they can upgrade their current camera, rather than selling it and purchasing new. Will I upgrade? I'm not honestly sure. I do shoot a lot of pixel shift and it isn't unusual that I'm shooting my kid's activities at iso 6400. Even if I don't upgrade, I have no reason to attack the improvements in the updated camera. Just because a piece of gear isn't something that fits my style of shooting doesn't mean that Pentax shouldn't release it. Unfortunately, it feels as though a lot of folks approach these discussions thinking that Pentax should design a camera specifically for them, leaving off the features they don't want/need and including the things they do and pricing it where they want. Only then, will Pentax be successful... With fans like these, who needs enemies? There is no way to please everybody, regardless of the manufacturer. And it may look like people is negative, but for some, it is not called negativity, but the real experience from the past. I gave the example between K3 and K3 II at the only 2 things I was interested at that time: ISO and af. I skipped K3 as an upgrade from K-5 II and jumped straight to K-3 II because of the so called improvements in af algorithms and ISO which Ricoh said that there were added to K-3 II. You seems to be into landscapes and because of that you tend to look with different eyes at K1 Mark II which was targeted from the beginning at landscape photographers, and tend to "close your eyes" at things like af, burst rate, 4k video, buffer capacity, SD writing speed, tethered transfer... These would have been features which many people would expect to be improved in a Mark II version of K1 (even if just slightly). So yes, a lot of people are somehow disappointed in the K1 Mark II specs, even in Canon, Sony, Fuji, Olympus and Nikon boats.

02-22-2018, 04:43 AM - 1 Like	#69
Igor123 Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Sweden Photos: Gallery Posts: 183	Originally posted by clackers Well, there isn't noise between pixels, Rob, there are only pixels and their values, what's this thing do differently, do you guess? Conventional noise reduction involves neighbour sampling ... you see one green pixel surrounded by red pixels, so you replace it with a red pixel also. It's lossy. Yes, my thoughts as well...for me, even if it's "just" a really smart NR algo that is better than most commercial ones, baked in, "cooking" the raws but on a very restrictive scale resulting in what appears to be better high-iso raws, that could still be a good feature, but still not something requiring hardware (other than for faster processing). The 14-bit data should be able to house enough DR (and a fair bit of noise) without giving the internal processor any advantage in acting on the "unprocessed" raw data ....so I'm not sure what's left that it can do...perhaps things like sensor temperature can be incorporated into the NR to give a superior result compared to traditional NR?...or some sneaky blackframe-ish subtraction or similar based on previous images or knowledge of some kind of noise bias of individual pixels over time or some other tricks like that? I guess it's their secret sauce =), but if anyone knows and can "prove" that it's not just good built-in PP, I'd be all the happier =) (But I guess it will be easier to compare this time; electronics and other vary quite a bit between the k3 and kp, so attributing all noise improvements to the accelerator may be hard to prove, but since they even offer an upgrade this time without a sensor change, I guess mk1+ software pp and mk2 would be easier and more reliable)

02-22-2018, 04:46 AM	#70
Belnan Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Nova Scotia Photos: Albums Posts: 1,090	Well Im interested in seeing a side by side comparison between the K-1 no mark and K-1 mark II. The k-1 already seems to be pretty good so Ill be surprised if there is any meaningful improvement in IQ.

02-22-2018, 04:58 AM - 1 Like	#73
Gimbal Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,106	Originally posted by Andrea K Shut up and take my money!!! Ok, I will. Just send it to me.

02-22-2018, 04:59 AM	#74
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	While Pentax is telling us how they're planning to sell the K-1 for a longer period, we should expect a new sensor (4K, burst speed), new processor (buffer, SD writing speed, USB) and new AF system? In other words, a completely new camera - the exact opposite of what Pentax is telling us?

02-22-2018, 05:02 AM - 1 Like	#75
fsge Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Genf Posts: 1,138	Originally posted by clackers With all due respect, Dan, I don't think many Pentaxians would pay $2000 for a Pentax equivalent of the APS-C Nikon D500 or $4500 for a Pentax equivalent of the FF Sony A9, I reckon you're wrong about that. You didn't, for example, you're super serious about your pictures but you went for a cheap Canon 6D when you jumped brands, right, and have ended up with a 5D instead of a 1Dx? I doubt as well. People secretely hope Pentax will deliver a D500 like APSC for half the price, which is unrealistic. Also, there is no need to develop something that replicates an existing product in same segment, it has to be and will be different. At last a top APSC would eat in just released K1 II plate...