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03-02-2018, 04:11 AM - 1 Like   #316
bxf
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
Dont know how many times I hear; Sorry, but I want Nikon/Canon..cause that is what the pros use
I would have thought that this is obvious. People always associate pro equipment with the best quality, and make their purchases accordingly, completely ignoring the fact that the model B123 they buy has virtually nothing in common with the model P789 that the pros use.

03-02-2018, 04:18 AM - 2 Likes   #317
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QuoteOriginally posted by robjmitchell Quote
I’m sure were all interested in patents for the 50 and 11-18. At this point we don’t even have official confirmation the Ricoh and Tokina are working together, although the combination of features and shape on the Opera 50mm is a pretty compelling link. Generally I find Asahimans info pretty good when its short term products, on longer time frame stuff its pretty sketchy, of course plans change.
So your statement has no source, no confirmation, and no basis for supposition other than the Pentax 50 Reference Lens looks like the Tokina 50 Reference Lens? Pentax has never designed a wide zoom before, and Tokina has?

The entire meme changes the value of * lens from, “This Pentax lens design is the best we can produce,” to “This Pentax lens design is the best we can copy.” Repeating this unfounded disinformation belittles Pentax engineers before the lenses are even shown, and diminishes the effort to build their reputation.

Why would someone do that? Are we just habitually so negative about Pentax we can’t imagine anything else is possible?

Last edited by monochrome; 03-02-2018 at 04:30 AM.
03-02-2018, 04:32 AM - 1 Like   #318
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
So your statement has no source, no confirmation, and no basis for supposition other than the Pentax 50 Reference Lens looks like the Tokina 50 Reference Lens?
Asahiman is the source. Confirmation is lacking. Logic is sound.
The Opera 50 comes with weather and dust sealing, ring type sdm, electronic aperture, and is almost an exact match for the size and shape of the pentax 50. Tokina have never used any of the first 3 features before. It would be a rather amazing coincidence if the both simultaneously made a 50mm lens with exactly the same new features at exactly the same time.
03-02-2018, 04:34 AM - 1 Like   #319
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QuoteOriginally posted by bxf Quote
I would have thought that this is obvious. People always associate pro equipment with the best quality, and make their purchases accordingly, completely ignoring the fact that the model B123 they buy has virtually nothing in common with the model P789 that the pros use.
Exactly!! But not everyone gets this!

03-02-2018, 04:39 AM   #320
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@robjmitchell:
Never? According to DPR, the Tokina 70-200mm f/4 has a ring-type ultrasonic motor.

OTOH Pentax claims the motor used by the D FA* 50mm is newly developed by them - and they're using Tamron's ring-type USD without saying a word about it. They're also talking about the optics they developed - but not Tamron's.
03-02-2018, 04:57 AM   #321
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote

The entire meme changes the value of * lens from, “This Pentax lens design is the best we can produce,” to “This Pentax lens design is the best we can copy.” Repeating this unfounded disinformation belittles Pentax engineers before the lenses are even shown, and diminishes the effort to build their reputation.

Why would someone do that? Are we just habitually so negative about Pentax we can’t imagine anything else is possible?
Ricoh has only made one * lens to date. Pentax is just a brand now. If Ricoh has decided to change how things are done its their perogative. Everyone is saying that the 50 is a pentax lens. The rumour is 11-18 is a new lens design developed in a cooperative effort between Tokina and Pentax. The likelihood is that pentax were willing to use more exotic materials and complex designs than Tokina, using an existing Tokina design as the basis.
The whole point of doing this is to get superior products to market so that the K-Mount doesn’t die.
I think a few engineers swallowing their pride is better than them loosing their jobs.
Cooperation is the basis of civilisation after all
03-02-2018, 04:58 AM - 1 Like   #322
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
The long-awaited Pentax FF UWA prime lens now has a possible candidate in the newly announced Tokina 20mm (affixes tinfoil hat).
I consider the unceasing efforts of claiming that every Pentax lens is a rebadge as trolling (except the few cases in which that is provably true).
The Tokina Firin 20mm is a mirrorless lens.

---------- Post added 02-03-18 at 01:59 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by robjmitchell Quote
Ricoh has only made one * lens to date.
You might want to rethink that statement.
03-02-2018, 05:23 AM - 1 Like   #323
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QuoteOriginally posted by robjmitchell Quote
Ricoh has only made one * lens to date. Pentax is just a brand now. If Ricoh has decided to change how things are done its their perogative. Everyone is saying that the 50 is a pentax lens. The rumour is 11-18 is a new lens design developed in a cooperative effort between Tokina and Pentax. The likelihood is that pentax were willing to use more exotic materials and complex designs than Tokina, using an existing Tokina design as the basis.
The whole point of doing this is to get superior products to market so that the K-Mount doesn’t die.
I think a few engineers swallowing their pride is better than them loosing their jobs.
Cooperation is the basis of civilisation after all
I see. You have access to Ricoh internal business plans and brand identity decisions, as well as cross-industry agreements and negotiations. Keep digging.


Last edited by monochrome; 03-02-2018 at 05:38 AM.
03-02-2018, 05:24 AM - 1 Like   #324
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I see You have access to Ricoh internal business plans and brand identity decisions, as well as cross-industry agreements and negotiations. Keep digging.
More then me then..Since I just pretend and faking to know stuff according to Biz
03-02-2018, 05:29 AM   #325
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I consider the unceasing efforts of claiming that every Pentax lens is a rebadge as trolling (except the few cases in which that is provably true).
The Tokina Firin 20mm is a mirrorless lens.
Don't you think that's a little pompous? There's nothing wrong with shared lens development, imho. Not every lens will be shared of course, but many will be and have been. Pentax aren't alone in doing this. Besides, it's a sliding scale from straight rebadge to licensing an inhouse patent to a third party. As I suggested, the alternative in some cases might be no lens at all because the economics on a single mount just don't add up. So share the R&D. We'll never know the exact details anyway, but overall what's the problem?

Last edited by mecrox; 03-02-2018 at 05:43 AM.
03-02-2018, 05:58 AM - 7 Likes   #326
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I find it unbelievable that there is a wrangle about where the Pentax lenses are designed, by whom and where they are manufactured! What else is gonna follow? I'm waiting for the first post stating I don't buy this new excellent lens because it was made in Tokina factory or it wasn't handmade by the Pentax designing team themselves.

All I want for Pentax are new great quality k-mount lenses and as long as these are brought to us I couldn't care less whether they are manufactured by Tokina, or are rebadged Tamron lenses or anything else. As I would mind for the beautiful and highly regarded DFA 15-30/2.8 being a rebadged Tamron lens



PS: So there would be a boycot if Pentax would rebadge the 150-600 G2...
03-02-2018, 06:10 AM   #327
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QuoteOriginally posted by redpit Quote
I find it unbelievable that there is a wrangle about where the Pentax lenses are designed, by whom and where they are manufactured! What else is gonna follow? I'm waiting for the first post stating I don't buy this new excellent lens because it was made in Tokina factory or it wasn't handmade by the Pentax designing team themselves.

All I want for Pentax are new great quality k-mount lenses and as long as these are brought to us I couldn't care less whether they are manufactured by Tokina, or are rebadged Tamron lenses or anything else. As I would mind for the beautiful and highly regarded DFA 15-30/2.8 being a rebadged Tamron lens



PS: So there would be a boycot if Pentax would rebadge the 150-600 G2...
All reports suggest the 11-18 is being made by pentax and they had at least some involvement in the design. If its good then I plan to replace my Da 14 with it. The problem has never been their ability to make great glass, but to make enough great glass in an appropriate time frame that allows them to be profitable. Any help is good help in my book. There is nothing negative about pentax releasing great lenses faster.
03-02-2018, 06:38 AM   #328
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I don’t think I care who makes it as long as it makes great images and provides the ergonomics and build quality I expect from a ‘real’ Pentax lens.

That said, I can compare my old FA28-200 favorably with the same vintage FA35-80. Neither was very good in terms of optics or build quality, but they were also both low end lenses, relatively speaking (though the Tamron-sourced 28-200 was expensive when new).

I’m not expecting either the 50, 85, or 70-200 to be cheaply made, and I expect them to live up to my optical needs.

I will admit having the 70-200 made by Tokina would be a relief. I mean, Pentax could have gone with a relabeled Meyer Optik in a brass tube with drop-in apertures and charged us $3k at a kickstarter...

-Eric
03-02-2018, 06:43 AM - 3 Likes   #329
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I consider the unceasing efforts of claiming that every Pentax lens is a rebadge as trolling (except the few cases in which that is provably true).
Yea, its getting boring. In the past some designs were sold or bought or worked on together, but far from every lens. Its part of globalization, where companies cooperate on some projects, outsource some parts, etc. As long as we get quality Pentax-labelled products, its not a problem. Its not demeaning to the company. And its not even true for most lenses in the lineup. What we really need is a good lineup of quality products at reasonable prices.
03-02-2018, 06:50 AM   #330
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Don't you think that's a little pompous? There's nothing wrong with shared lens development, imho. Not every lens will be shared of course, but many will be and have been. Pentax aren't alone in doing this. Besides, it's a sliding scale from straight rebadge to licensing an inhouse patent to a third party. As I suggested, the alternative in some cases might be no lens at all because the economics on a single mount just don't add up. So share the R&D. We'll never know the exact details anyway, but overall what's the problem?
It's not pompous at all.

The "it's a rebadge!" crowd had gone as far as claiming that Pentax cannot possibly design lenses on the Sigma Art level (that was back then when the "Tokina" was a "Sigma", just before it ceased to be a "Tamron").
Their goal is clearly spreading doubt on Pentax' ability as an OEM photographic equipment manufacturer. This is what's not acceptable.

Of course, I'm not putting all of that on you. But, you did suggest some link between a mirrorless Tokina lens and a future Pentax SLR lens we so far know nothing about. It's obviously a not well researched claim, and made with what purpose?
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