Is it not enough to want the best glass possible? The whole “you can get a perfectly decent picture with lenses designed two generations ago” mantra is both tiresome and misses the point.
Some of us want the best glass for the sake of having the best glass. For me, if it improves my pictures, that is a bonus, nothing more.

I didn't mean to suggest that you're not allowed to have the best if you don't necessarily require it, I just meant that I've seen a lot of complaints on this forum that have seemed kind of aimless. I think that for the most part, the photographic equipment that currently exists (Pentax or not, of this decade or not) is more than good enough for most people's needs.

And I definitely don't like the suggestion that people who want high-performance modern lenses should just shut up and buy some "good enough" legacy gear. Hoping for availability of a second-hand item is not an acceptable strategy to rely on.

[robjmitchell]

Please cite Tokina Patent references supporting you raw supposition and business logic behind Tokina’s decision to ‘give’ the design to Pentax.

Otherwise this is disruptive misinformation of the most malicious, disparaging kind.

Asahiman is the one who stated that 50 is pentax patent and 11-18 is tokina. Doesn't mean that pentax hasn't tweaked or helped in its design, just that the co design is based off the existing 11-X tokina zooms and therefore, as part of the deal has been registered under tokina. I'm not sure why its offensive if a small company teams up with another to produce great glass for K-mount. The arrival of the long awaited aps-c ultra wide with WR is a cause for celebration, as is the fact that Ricoh are cooperating rather than being held back by pride.

[SSGGeezer]

Asahiman is the one who stated that 50 is pentax patent and 11-18 is tokina. Doesn't mean that pentax hasn't tweaked or helped in its design, just that the co design is based off the existing 11-X tokina zooms and therefore, as part of the deal has been registered under tokina. I'm not sure why its offensive if a small company teams up with another to produce great glass for K-mount. The arrival of the long awaited aps-c ultra wide with WR is a cause for celebration, as is the fact that Ricoh are cooperating rather than being held back by pride.

And he has been accurate recently? And didn't Asahi sell Pentax a long time ago? Maybe he is someone who likes Japanese beer so he has that nickname. I am a newcomer to Pentax but all of the FUD that people were spouting when everyone was waiting to see what Pentax would announce at CP+ seemed to have roots in cryptic posts made by him on a different forum.

He was posting Dark photos of something that was certainly not the K-1 MkII. So I better get a box of salt for this statement about Tokina being the source for the *11-18.

Let's pretend I am from Missouri, Show Me!

[monochrome]

Asahiman is the one who stated that 50 is pentax patent and 11-18 is tokina. Doesn't mean that pentax hasn't tweaked or helped in its design, just that the co design is based off the existing 11-X tokina zooms and therefore, as part of the deal has been registered under tokina. I'm not sure why its offensive if a small company teams up with another to produce great glass for K-mount. The arrival of the long awaited aps-c ultra wide with WR is a cause for celebration, as is the fact that Ricoh are cooperating rather than being held back by pride.

Registered. Patent. Tokina.

And he has been accurate recently? And didn't Asahi sell Pentax a long time ago? Maybe he is someone who likes Japanese beer so he has that nickname. I am a newcomer to Pentax but all of the FUD that people were spouting when everyone was waiting to see what Pentax would announce at CP+ seemed to have roots in cryptic posts made by him on a different forum.

He was posting Dark photos of something that was certainly not the K-1 MkII. So I better get a box of salt for this statement about Tokina being the source for the *11-18.

Let's pretend I am from Missouri, Show Me!

Sort of a “Pictures or it never happened’ thing.

[kenspo]

Kenspo, you have first-mover advantage. So often you tell us how bright the future is. An f/4 zoom now is a business decision, even if it lengthens your time horizon.

I still think the future is bright, otherwise I would use something else I just get a bit ******** when people change plans after me promise users that its not that far away

---------- Post added 03-02-18 at 08:17 AM ----------

It makes no difference. That boat sailed in around 1971. It doesn't really matter what Pentax does, it isn't going to be taken seriously, either like or by the big boys.

Well..In this area I have, after hard work, got Pentax to be taken more seriously. So its not possible

[robjmitchell]

Registered. Patent. Tokina.

Sort of a “Pictures or it never happened’ thing.

I’m sure were all interested in patents for the 50 and 11-18. At this point we don’t even have official confirmation the Ricoh and Tokina are working together, although the combination of features and shape on the Opera 50mm is a pretty compelling link. Generally I find Asahimans info pretty good when its short term products, on longer time frame stuff its pretty sketchy, of course plans change.

[2351HD]

Is it not enough to want the best glass possible? The whole “you can get a perfectly decent picture with lenses designed two generations ago” mantra is both tiresome and misses the point.
Some of us want the best glass for the sake of having the best glass. For me, if it improves my pictures, that is a bonus, nothing more.

I hear you loud and clear. I am in the same boat. I have a FF Canon system and a 645Z system and if Pentax actually released a replacement for the 25mm, 45-80 and 80-160 lenses for the 645, well I would own them all because I have the cash and I want the latest and best.

Same goes for the Pentax FF system. If they had an awesome 16-35, 24-105 and 70-200 f/4 lenses that were made for landscape use with filters, I would have a Pentax K1-II and those lenses. Plus, if they made some really nice primes such as an ultra sharp 18mm/2.8, 24/1.4, 85/1.8 (or f/2) then I would have them too.

There is nothing wrong with wanting the latest and best for your hobby/business. I get told all the time that the old 645 lenses are good enough, but is "good enough" really good enough when there are new 100mp sensors on the horizon?

[Dan Rentea]

Its THE normal focal length, so bringing a modern, first class optical construction design with faster AF is a key role for the lens lineup.

I'm all in for new, modern glass. I don't like compromises and most of the old lenses from film era are somehow compromises (personal opinion). I'm excited every time I see a new lens released by every manufacturer, no matter the mount. I do understand also that Ricoh is trying to attract Pro photographers to Pentax (at least this seems the main task for Kenspo), but in the meantime they seem to make efforts to remain in bussiness and keeping the existent user base in their boat. To me, K-1 II and even the KP are small indications that Ricoh is going for the landscape photographers. They focus more in features usefull for landscape photographers and for that they tend to sacrifice af, video, flash system in order to remain competitive regarding prices. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there will be clients for the 50mm lens and as I said, I like to see new lenses released. I just don't think that a 50mm lens (despite that it was a standard lens back in the days and it is still called a standard lens) would bring to Ricoh as much sales as a 20mm or a 85mm lens would bring. The only thing that Ricoh doesn't have compared to Canon, Nikon, Sony, Fuji is the luxury to afford releasing "standard" lenses, at least not in a market where competition has covered all focal lenghts and the third party manufacturers are starting to release better and better lenses to complement the OEM lenses already available. That, the non existing marketing and the delays of the new lenses are not encouragements for photographers. I mean, put yourself in Kenspo position. I assume he goes to meetings with Pro photographers and he tells them the Pentax future is bright, but then this new roadmap comes and the 85mm lens was delayed, the wide angle lens would be released sometimes in 2019 or later and so on. A 20mm lens and an 85mm lens are somehow specialised lenses. 50mm is, as you guys say, a standard lens, probably a very good and expensive one. It's good to have it, no question about that, but compared to the other focal lenghts (the more specialised ones) I wonder how good it is to have a 50mm lens as the first new prime released, speaking from the perspective of the general business.

But then again, if Ricoh would have made a poll (maybe they did and we don't know about it) where I had to choose between 20mm, 35mm 50mm and 85mm lenses, my first choice would have been 35mm f1.4 (to me this a the most versatile lens for full frame cameras), then I would choose the 85mm, then the 20mm and at the end of the list would have been the 50mm lens. Ricoh choosed the 50mm lens and it seems that this lens would have to satisfy the photographers until the spring of 2019, if the 85mm would not be further delayed. Let's hope that the existing user base would jump all over the 50mm lens once it will be released and it will be a big success for Ricoh in terms of sales. At the end of the day, the sales are what matter most and Canon is the best example in this regard year after year despite the fact that people say that Canon is well behind competitions in terms of sensors and innovations.

Also the key factor for street/portrait/landscape is the photographer, his eye and his vision. I can do landscape, street and architecture with 300mm, wildlife on occasion with 31mm and Portraits with 50mm. My D FA 100mm has been used on the K-5 for 2/3 of my pictures.

"...his eye and his vision..." That is valid argument not only for photography, but to diferentiate yourself from the others in every profession. Yet, you skipped the keywords from my previous comment, which are "not ideal". I tried once to shoot portraits with a 600mm lens and it was not ideal to talk to the model on the phone in order to tell her how to position her hand, given the fact that I was so far away from her.

[biz-engineer]

I'm more into the 24/35/85/100/135mm when comes to focal lenghts for primes. 50mm has no real use for me. I tried to like this focal lenght but without luck.

Same for me. Perhaps 50mm was the kit lens of the film era because it was the easiest to design with large aperture due the flange distance (flange distance defined by sensor size and need of space for the mirror). The normal FoV on FF is about 40mm and not 50mm. The idea of the 50mm would be to have a lens that can do everything, but in practice it's trying to fit all but it fits nothing except boring shots. 35 as normal/wide and 85 as short tele can play a decent role in use cases, the 50mm is hard to fit. I believe there is much more volume for the 35 and 85, so it's like not buy random that Tamron and Sigma offer those 35mm and 85mm primes.

[ffking]

I must say, looking at all that's happening on the lens front, that there does seem to be some sort of quite fluid relationship between Pentax and Tokina with different levels of input into different lenses by each company. Perhaps Pentax are licensing some designs to Tokina and vice versa, while each company refines the design to their own needs. So, maybe the 11-18 has some Tokina input - hence its unexpected appearance - but is made by Pentax to its standards, hence the *. The 70-200 f4 is more Tokina (maybe) but with Pentax coatings and finishes, like the Tamrons, while the 50mm f1.4 and the 85mm f1.4 are pure Pentax licensed to Tokina. That seems to me to make both logical sense and business sense - it actually strikes me as a smart move if they've done some such deal - it accelerates the rate of lens introduction and gets some revenue from Canikon users. All guesswork, but, as I say, it makes sense.

[Ian Stuart Forsyth]

Same for me. Perhaps 50mm was the kit lens of the film era because it was the easiest to design with large aperture due the flange distance (flange distance defined by sensor size and need of space for the mirror). The normal FoV on FF is about 40mm and not 50mm. The idea of the 50mm would be to have a lens that can do everything, but in practice it's trying to fit all but it fits nothing except boring shots. 35 as normal/wide and 85 as short tele can play a decent role in use cases, the 50mm is hard to fit. I believe there is much more volume for the 35 and 85, so it's like not buy random that Tamron and Sigma offer those 35mm and 85mm primes.

It really depends for me on how I am going to use the final image
24mm 3x2 , 8-10 and the odd time 16x9
28mm 16x9 most of the time
35mm 3x2 and 8x10
85mm for just about anything
The only time I like 45-50 is for T/S and mainly for 8x10 and 3x2 and 60mm for macro
For me the priority as the 35mm followed by the 85mm and then 24mm, I did however pickup a 50mm as one of my second FF lens but it was more as a dust cover for the body

[mecrox]

Asahiman is the one who stated that 50 is pentax patent and 11-18 is tokina. Doesn't mean that pentax hasn't tweaked or helped in its design, just that the co design is based off the existing 11-X tokina zooms and therefore, as part of the deal has been registered under tokina. I'm not sure why its offensive if a small company teams up with another to produce great glass for K-mount. The arrival of the long awaited aps-c ultra wide with WR is a cause for celebration, as is the fact that Ricoh are cooperating rather than being held back by pride.

It’s the only realistic way of doing it in many cases, I would imagine - spread the development cost over many more units without having to keep an army of lens designers on permanent standby. I’d be surprised if this didn’t go on far more than we think. Who makes Hasselblad’s lenses, for example? I’ve read that Tamron design some Nikon all-in-one zooms. Olympus have at least one lens that’s said to have been designed by a team at Sigma. Etc etc. It’s hard to think it matters all that much if the result is a good lens which would otherwise not appear or appear only at a higher price and much later on. For Pentax this collaboration is surely a good idea. The long-awaited Pentax FF UWA prime lens now has a possible candidate in the newly announced Tokina 20mm (affixes tinfoil hat).

[Rondec]

It is really odd if Pentax is licensing Tokina's optics for the 11-18 that they wouldn't have just made it 11-20 like Tokina's lens is. I have no inside information, but I suppose we will see when the lens is actually released who holds the patent.

It still wouldn't make it a bad lens. The DA 12-24 is a Tokina optical design that Pentax licensed and people liked and used it quite well.

[Kunzite]

I'm not taking everything Asahiman says for granted. OK, he has some inside information, and he's well intended - I appreciate his contribution.
But I have no means of knowing the confidence in the information he's giving us. Was it true internal information? Was it someone's guessing? Usually, the more details he can give, the more I can trust that information.
See, it's not about Asahiman but his sources.

[kenspo]

See, it's not about Asahiman but his sources.

Not sure, but I think I know his sources..They are not the same as mine