DA* upgrade this fall ?

Saltwater Images · 03-19-2018, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by thibs

More complicated? Because you've got choice?
Sorry I don't understand ��

In 2014 I resigned myself to thinking that Pentax would never offer a full frame dslr. I upgraded to a K-5II that was on clearance and threw my cash at 5 HD DA Limited lenses. It was a big investment and I saved for a long time. I could have easily bought a K-1 and D FA 28-105 if these were available. Now I’m committed to APS-C. Today I’m in a position to buy one lens that is between $1,000 and $1,400. Whatever I choose I’ll have to live with it for a long time. So yes the choice is complicated because if I wait - I’ll miss a lot of shooting opportunities during the short summer on this sub artic tundra. If I don’t wait and a better lens is released that is superior to lethargic Sudden Death Motor AF - I’ll regret it. I still have kids to put through school so my investments in photography must be smart investments.

Last edited by Saltwater Images; 03-19-2018 at 02:48 PM. Reason: Typo

thibs · 03-19-2018, 11:47 PM

Oh, I get it, totally.
Indeed, whatever you choose, you dunno if it was a good decision or not till later.

Annoying indeed.

**Rondec** · 03-20-2018, 03:11 AM - **2 Likes**

The 16-50 is OK. Are there better 16-50 f2.8 lenses out there with sealing? Maybe, but most of the lenses in this range only go to 17mm so it is a little tough to compare. CAs are present and I wouldn't shoot at 16mm and f2.8 -- by f4 borders are a lot sharper. My guess would be that Pentax would tweak the optical formula as well as changing the motor and the lens coatings, but I'm not a Pentax engineer so, not sure how hard it would be to fix this lens (remember it was one of the very first DA * lenses -- I've owned mine since 2008).

robjmitchell · 03-20-2018, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by Saltwater Images

In 2014 I resigned myself to thinking that Pentax would never offer a full frame dslr. I upgraded to a K-5II that was on clearance and threw my cash at 5 HD DA Limited lenses. It was a big investment and I saved for a long time. I could have easily bought a K-1 and D FA 28-105 if these were available. Now I’m committed to APS-C. Today I’m in a position to buy one lens that is between $1,000 and $1,400. Whatever I choose I’ll have to live with it for a long time. So yes the choice is complicated because if I wait - I’ll miss a lot of shooting opportunities during the short summer on this sub artic tundra. If I don’t wait and a better lens is released that is superior to lethargic Sudden Death Motor AF - I’ll regret it. I still have kids to put through school so my investments in photography must be smart investments.

Considering you have the primes if you need the speed, surely the 16-85 would have to be a contender if landscape performance with weather sealing is paramount?

Saltwater Images · 03-20-2018, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by robjmitchell

Considering you have the primes if you need the speed, surely the 16-85 would have to be a contender if landscape performance with weather sealing is paramount?

I’m actually looking for a longer lens. The DA* 200 or DA* 300 are where my head was prior to this thread. The 60-250 seemed to be an excellent choice as well. I just picked up a HD DA 1.4X TC. Any one of those 3 lenses would have worked for shooting minke, humpback and killer whales, eagles, cormorants, puffins, bears, caribou, moose, and more. I dread the current DA* SDM AF speed. Having shot with both the DA* 16-50 and DA* 50-135 it’s the AF speed that disappoints. The promise of more reliable AF motors may be reason enough to wait.

**clackers** · 03-20-2018, 04:35 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Saltwater Images

I’m actually looking for a longer lens. The DA* 200 or DA* 300 are where my head was prior to this thread. The 60-250 seemed to be an excellent choice as well. I just picked up a HD DA 1.4X TC. Any one of those 3 lenses would have worked for shooting minke, humpback and killer whales, eagles, cormorants, puffins, bears, caribou, moose, and more. I dread the current DA* SDM AF speed. Having shot with both the DA* 16-50 and DA* 50-135 it’s the AF speed that disappoints. The promise of more reliable AF motors may be reason enough to wait.

The DFA 150-450 would be an obvious suggestion!

Kunzite · 03-21-2018, 01:42 PM - **2 Likes**

I don't know if it's related to any future Pentax product, but I've just seen a newly published patent about reducing chromatic aberrations etc. and achieving excellent optical performance in a 16-50 f/2.8:
??2018-45172 | ???????IP Force?

Mistral75 · 03-22-2018, 04:20 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

I don't know if it's related to any future Pentax product, but I've just seen a newly published patent about reducing chromatic aberrations etc. and achieving excellent optical performance in a 16-50 f/2.8:
??2018-45172 | ???????IP Force?

It's most probably the patent of the upgraded 16-50mm f/2.8.

There are 10 examples in the patent, all of them susceptible to be marketed as 16-50mm f/2.8 APS-C zoom lenses. Five examples include 16 elements in 13 groups. Three examples include 17 elements in 13 groups. Two examples include 15 elements in 12 groups.

The current smc Pentax-DA★ 16-50mm f/2.8 ED AL[IF] SDM includes 15 elements in 12 groups:

The two examples of the patent which include 15 elements in 12 groups too (example 4 and example 7) are pretty close to the current DA★.

Example 4:

Example 7:

Considering that emphasis is put on the minimisation of chromatic aberrations In the description of the benefits of the invention, I think that this patent is that of a revamped DA★ 16-50mm f/2.8, close to the current lens but with some tweaks in its optical formula aimed at mitigating one of the main weaknesses of the current lens, its high level of chromatic aberrations.

**Mikesul** · 03-22-2018, 05:11 AM

Does the patent say anything about the focus motor?

Mistral75 · 03-22-2018, 05:24 AM

No, it does not. It's purely about optics.

y0chang · 03-22-2018, 08:16 AM

Originally posted by Mistral75

There are 10 examples in the patent, all of them susceptible to be marketed as 16-50mm f/2.8 APS-C zoom lenses. Five examples include 16 elements in 13 groups. Three examples include 17 elements in 13 groups. Two examples include 15 elements in 12 groups.

My guess is that they were going to redesign the optics so they don't have to re-licence with Tokina, but I wonder if this has changed now with the new Pentax/Tokina partnership that was started with the DA* 11-18.

Kunzite · 03-22-2018, 08:20 AM

Originally posted by y0chang

My guess is that they were going to redesign the optics so they don't have to re-licence with Tokina

Sigh... the original 16-50 was also developed by Pentax, and licensed to Tokina.

Mistral75 · 03-22-2018, 08:24 AM

Originally posted by y0chang

My guess is that they were going to redesign the optics so they don't have to re-licence with Tokina, but I wonder if this has changed now with the new Pentax/Tokina partnership that was started with the DA* 11-18.

Wrong guess I'm afraid since the smc Pentax-DA★ 16-50mm f/2.8 ED AL[IF] SDM is based on a Pentax-patented design licensed to Tokina for their own ATX 16-50mm f/2.8 Pro DX lens, not from them.

Edit: as Kunzite wrote before me

y0chang · 03-22-2018, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by Mistral75

Wrong guess I'm afraid since the smc Pentax-DA★ 16-50mm f/2.8 ED AL[IF] SDM is based on a Pentax-patented design licensed to Tokina for their own ATX 16-50mm f/2.8 Pro DX lens, not from them.

Edit: as Kunzite wrote before me

Just because the optical patent was created by Pentax, doesn't mean that Pentax has control of all the copyrights nor do we have full knowledge of their joint development agreement. I don't really care which way or the other, my 50-135mm is one of my favorite lenses, and if Pentax wants to create more DA* quality lenses, they could sign an agreement with the evil Canikon empire for all I care.

Kunzite · 03-22-2018, 10:25 AM - **1 Like**

If you don't know, don't start "guessing" agreements with Tokina please. The Internet is full of fake news as it is.

The simplest explanation is that they want to reduce the CA and overall improve the optical performance, compared with the first version. As stated in the patent.

03-20-2018, 03:54 PM	#125
Saltwater Images Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Newfoundland Photos: Gallery Posts: 501	Originally posted by robjmitchell Considering you have the primes if you need the speed, surely the 16-85 would have to be a contender if landscape performance with weather sealing is paramount? I’m actually looking for a longer lens. The DA* 200 or DA* 300 are where my head was prior to this thread. The 60-250 seemed to be an excellent choice as well. I just picked up a HD DA 1.4X TC. Any one of those 3 lenses would have worked for shooting minke, humpback and killer whales, eagles, cormorants, puffins, bears, caribou, moose, and more. I dread the current DA* SDM AF speed. Having shot with both the DA* 16-50 and DA* 50-135 it’s the AF speed that disappoints. The promise of more reliable AF motors may be reason enough to wait. Last edited by Saltwater Images; 03-20-2018 at 03:56 PM. Reason: Typo

03-22-2018, 08:16 AM	#131
y0chang Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: United States Posts: 793	Originally posted by Mistral75 There are 10 examples in the patent, all of them susceptible to be marketed as 16-50mm f/2.8 APS-C zoom lenses. Five examples include 16 elements in 13 groups. Three examples include 17 elements in 13 groups. Two examples include 15 elements in 12 groups. My guess is that they were going to redesign the optics so they don't have to re-licence with Tokina, but I wonder if this has changed now with the new Pentax/Tokina partnership that was started with the DA* 11-18. Last edited by y0chang; 03-22-2018 at 08:17 AM. Reason: add quote

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03-19-2018, 02:47 PM	#121
Saltwater Images Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Newfoundland Photos: Gallery Posts: 501	Originally posted by thibs More complicated? Because you've got choice? Sorry I don't understand �� In 2014 I resigned myself to thinking that Pentax would never offer a full frame dslr. I upgraded to a K-5II that was on clearance and threw my cash at 5 HD DA Limited lenses. It was a big investment and I saved for a long time. I could have easily bought a K-1 and D FA 28-105 if these were available. Now I’m committed to APS-C. Today I’m in a position to buy one lens that is between $1,000 and $1,400. Whatever I choose I’ll have to live with it for a long time. So yes the choice is complicated because if I wait - I’ll miss a lot of shooting opportunities during the short summer on this sub artic tundra. If I don’t wait and a better lens is released that is superior to lethargic Sudden Death Motor AF - I’ll regret it. I still have kids to put through school so my investments in photography must be smart investments. Last edited by Saltwater Images; 03-19-2018 at 02:48 PM. Reason: Typo

03-19-2018, 11:47 PM	#122
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Oh, I get it, totally. Indeed, whatever you choose, you dunno if it was a good decision or not till later. Annoying indeed.

03-20-2018, 03:11 AM - 2 Likes	#123
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,663	The 16-50 is OK. Are there better 16-50 f2.8 lenses out there with sealing? Maybe, but most of the lenses in this range only go to 17mm so it is a little tough to compare. CAs are present and I wouldn't shoot at 16mm and f2.8 -- by f4 borders are a lot sharper. My guess would be that Pentax would tweak the optical formula as well as changing the motor and the lens coatings, but I'm not a Pentax engineer so, not sure how hard it would be to fix this lens (remember it was one of the very first DA * lenses -- I've owned mine since 2008).

03-20-2018, 01:34 PM	#124
robjmitchell Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Melbourne Aus Posts: 1,776	Originally posted by Saltwater Images In 2014 I resigned myself to thinking that Pentax would never offer a full frame dslr. I upgraded to a K-5II that was on clearance and threw my cash at 5 HD DA Limited lenses. It was a big investment and I saved for a long time. I could have easily bought a K-1 and D FA 28-105 if these were available. Now I’m committed to APS-C. Today I’m in a position to buy one lens that is between $1,000 and $1,400. Whatever I choose I’ll have to live with it for a long time. So yes the choice is complicated because if I wait - I’ll miss a lot of shooting opportunities during the short summer on this sub artic tundra. If I don’t wait and a better lens is released that is superior to lethargic Sudden Death Motor AF - I’ll regret it. I still have kids to put through school so my investments in photography must be smart investments. Considering you have the primes if you need the speed, surely the 16-85 would have to be a contender if landscape performance with weather sealing is paramount?

03-20-2018, 04:35 PM - 1 Like	#126
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by Saltwater Images I’m actually looking for a longer lens. The DA* 200 or DA* 300 are where my head was prior to this thread. The 60-250 seemed to be an excellent choice as well. I just picked up a HD DA 1.4X TC. Any one of those 3 lenses would have worked for shooting minke, humpback and killer whales, eagles, cormorants, puffins, bears, caribou, moose, and more. I dread the current DA* SDM AF speed. Having shot with both the DA* 16-50 and DA* 50-135 it’s the AF speed that disappoints. The promise of more reliable AF motors may be reason enough to wait. The DFA 150-450 would be an obvious suggestion!

03-21-2018, 01:42 PM - 2 Likes	#127
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	I don't know if it's related to any future Pentax product, but I've just seen a newly published patent about reducing chromatic aberrations etc. and achieving excellent optical performance in a 16-50 f/2.8: ??2018-45172 \| ???????IP Force?

03-22-2018, 04:20 AM	#128
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,527	Originally posted by Kunzite I don't know if it's related to any future Pentax product, but I've just seen a newly published patent about reducing chromatic aberrations etc. and achieving excellent optical performance in a 16-50 f/2.8: ??2018-45172 \| ???????IP Force? It's most probably the patent of the upgraded 16-50mm f/2.8. There are 10 examples in the patent, all of them susceptible to be marketed as 16-50mm f/2.8 APS-C zoom lenses. Five examples include 16 elements in 13 groups. Three examples include 17 elements in 13 groups. Two examples include 15 elements in 12 groups. The current smc Pentax-DA★ 16-50mm f/2.8 ED AL[IF] SDM includes 15 elements in 12 groups: The two examples of the patent which include 15 elements in 12 groups too (example 4 and example 7) are pretty close to the current DA★. Example 4: Example 7: Considering that emphasis is put on the minimisation of chromatic aberrations In the description of the benefits of the invention, I think that this patent is that of a revamped DA★ 16-50mm f/2.8, close to the current lens but with some tweaks in its optical formula aimed at mitigating one of the main weaknesses of the current lens, its high level of chromatic aberrations.

03-22-2018, 05:11 AM	#129
Mikesul Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 7,594	Does the patent say anything about the focus motor?

03-22-2018, 05:24 AM	#130
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,527	No, it does not. It's purely about optics.

03-22-2018, 08:20 AM	#132
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by y0chang My guess is that they were going to redesign the optics so they don't have to re-licence with Tokina Sigh... the original 16-50 was also developed by Pentax, and licensed to Tokina.

03-22-2018, 08:24 AM	#133
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,527	Originally posted by y0chang My guess is that they were going to redesign the optics so they don't have to re-licence with Tokina, but I wonder if this has changed now with the new Pentax/Tokina partnership that was started with the DA* 11-18. Wrong guess I'm afraid since the smc Pentax-DA★ 16-50mm f/2.8 ED AL[IF] SDM is based on a Pentax-patented design licensed to Tokina for their own ATX 16-50mm f/2.8 Pro DX lens, not from them. Edit: as Kunzite wrote before me

03-22-2018, 10:15 AM	#134
y0chang Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: United States Posts: 793	Originally posted by Mistral75 Wrong guess I'm afraid since the smc Pentax-DA★ 16-50mm f/2.8 ED AL[IF] SDM is based on a Pentax-patented design licensed to Tokina for their own ATX 16-50mm f/2.8 Pro DX lens, not from them. Edit: as Kunzite wrote before me Just because the optical patent was created by Pentax, doesn't mean that Pentax has control of all the copyrights nor do we have full knowledge of their joint development agreement. I don't really care which way or the other, my 50-135mm is one of my favorite lenses, and if Pentax wants to create more DA* quality lenses, they could sign an agreement with the evil Canikon empire for all I care.

03-22-2018, 10:25 AM - 1 Like	#135
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	If you don't know, don't start "guessing" agreements with Tokina please. The Internet is full of fake news as it is. The simplest explanation is that they want to reduce the CA and overall improve the optical performance, compared with the first version. As stated in the patent.