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04-26-2018, 07:12 AM - 1 Like   #466
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Well, either you need (new) glasses or you haven’t really tried a high-resolution display. I write this on an iMac 5K and after having used that for about three years now, I’m not able to go back to lower resolution.
It does make a difference for close viewing distances like that. I have a 1440p iMac, but every time I use one of the newer models I really want one. The detail and clarity, even in text, is stunning.

04-26-2018, 12:46 PM   #467
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Well, either you need (new) glasses or you haven’t really tried a high-resolution display. I write this on an iMac 5K and after having used that for about three years now, I’m not able to go back to lower resolution.
On a 13 inch display, 2K or 4K , it's hard to tell. You must have really really good eyes then. For me, color matrix and finishing of the display matter more than the resolution. Currently I have top end HD display and it looks very very good. It is the color matrix , digital to analog conversion, back-lighting, surface coating layers, make a lot of difference. There are HD display with the same finishing as retina, it is impossible to tell the difference between $K and HD.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 04-26-2018 at 01:01 PM.
04-27-2018, 04:26 AM - 1 Like   #468
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4K vs HD on anything less than 20 inch? That's a whole new level of pixel peeping.
04-28-2018, 04:17 AM   #469
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Not below 20" but small displays anyway...

I have 26" Full HD and two 24" 4k displays in three head setup. It isn't for the pixel peeping but normal text. I once saw the K letter was made from bricks on fullHD display and now I can't unsee it. Reason why I keep the FullHD display is its better color space.

04-28-2018, 04:57 AM - 1 Like   #470
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Pentax needs a K3 successor

After getting the KP two months ago, I will be attempting to trade it in for a K3II on monday.
Taking about a thousand shots with the DA560, I have found two things:

-Iso performance is far better than it was with the K3 I had.
-this comes at a fatal price regarding image clarity and fine detail. Images look less alive and clear, and lack the very fine (feather) detail from the K3 series. While for general shooting this may not be objectionable, for birding with the DA560, I have found it fatal: the processing simply takes the great clarity and detail away that make the K3 + DA560 combo so special.

AF is better, and so are some other things, but for my use with the DA560, the penalty of the new image processing is too high and harms the results too much. I will gladly takes more noise and loss of color at higher iso's if only I can get the great detail and clarity at iso100-400 from the K3 back.
Fortunately, my camera store still has the K3II.

Pentax should really get the detail and clarity part in order with the K3 successor, or wildlife shooters are going to loose critical detail and the true to life quality of the K3 series.
Having used the Sony A7RII for two years, my feeling is, that only a new BSI sensor will bring true IQ improvements. Although successfull with regards to reducing noise, otherwise the accelerator thing is really only a trade off, and I now greatly am in favor of the possibility of switching the whole extra image processing off. The penalty for my use is unacceptable, at least with regards to the KP.
Of course, one should see these remarks in context: fine detail is everything when birding with the DA560. As a general use camera, it may be very different, although the loss of clarity and the true to life quality of the K3 is also somewhat worrying.

Chris

Last edited by Chris Mak; 04-28-2018 at 05:08 AM.
04-28-2018, 05:09 AM   #471
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That should not happen - did you carefully check all possible causes?
04-28-2018, 05:27 AM   #472
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Smaller bodies tend to get more shutter shock, noise reduction also takes away a bit of sharpness. That's why cameras like D500/7DII aren't small, they have a solid chassis so to keep vibrations to a minimum. On the KP , EFCS can also be enabled , benefiting sharpness especially when using long lenses.

04-28-2018, 06:47 AM - 1 Like   #473
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
That should not happen - did you carefully check all possible causes?
Yes, all noise reduction settings off. Even with the electronic shutter, where shutter shock is eliminated, the 100% zoom image sharpness never reaches the level of the K3 images. Images look much smoother and have much less noise at iso 400-800, but the DA560 is a high resolving lens, and the penalty is visible.
Images with all shock/movement blur eliminated don't reach the same clarity and fine detail level. Of course you can apply a bucketload of sharpening to the KP images with only little penalty, but that is not the look that I am after.
So it's back to the K3II for me.
As I mentioned: I really hope that Pentax can get hold of a better sensor (preferably BSI) for the K3 successor, and lower the enforced image processing. Comparing the K3 and KP images at 100% zoom, it becomes clear that the K3 pretty much got the best out of that Sony 24mp sensor at iso 100-400. The only real benefit of the KP is in the higher iso settings.

P.s. this is all using PEF Raw and developing in CO1v11

Chris

Last edited by Chris Mak; 04-28-2018 at 06:54 AM.
04-28-2018, 07:02 AM   #474
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QuoteOriginally posted by Chris Mak Quote
Yes, all noise reduction settings off. Even with the electronic shutter, where shutter shock is eliminated, the 100% zoom image sharpness never reaches the level of the K3 images. Images look much smoother and have much less noise at iso 400-800, but the DA560 is a high resolving lens, and the penalty is visible.
Images with all shock/movement blur eliminated don't reach the same clarity and fine detail level. Of course you can apply a bucketload of sharpening to the KP images with only little penalty, but that is not the look that I am after.
So it's back to the K3II for me.
As I mentioned: I really hope that Pentax can get hold of a better sensor (preferably BSI) for the K3 successor, and lower the enforced image processing. Comparing the K3 and KP images at 100% zoom, it becomes clear that the K3 pretty much got the best out of that Sony 24mp sensor at iso 100-400. The only real benefit of the KP is in the higher iso settings.

Chris
At one time people were saying that the KP was designed to work with 'Ltd' lenses. People have been trying to figure out where the KP "fits" - it is not a follow-up to the K-7, K-5, K-3 series. I wonder if selling both the Da560 and pursuing high ISO will work {look at the thread about the K-1 Mk ii}

K-1 MK2 - Unhappy with results at moderate ISO settings - PentaxForums.com
04-28-2018, 07:04 AM   #475
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QuoteOriginally posted by Chris Mak Quote
Yes, all noise reduction settings off. Even with the electronic shutter, where shutter shock is eliminated, the 100% zoom image sharpness never reaches the level of the K3 images.
Could be AF fine tuning issue of the KP. Or the thing they've done on the K1 which eliminates chroma noise (compared to D800E and D810), but then resolves slightly less details. My K3 24Mp had more noise but resolved more details than 24Mp cropped from a K1 frame, using the same lens, same distance, same subject, same lighting, same camera settings.
04-28-2018, 08:33 AM   #476
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Could be AF fine tuning issue of the KP. Or the thing they've done on the K1 which eliminates chroma noise (compared to D800E and D810), but then resolves slightly less details. My K3 24Mp had more noise but resolved more details than 24Mp cropped from a K1 frame, using the same lens, same distance, same subject, same lighting, same camera settings.
I went through the AF fine tune routine, and focus is accurate.
Everyone should judge for themselves, but for me, images between iso 100 and 400 lack the 'I can reach out and touch the subjects' feeling that the K3 images give me with the DA560.
Bottomline: image processing is very different, and not really suited for birding at low iso. I am of course not saying that images from the KP are bad, far from it, but the difference is absolutely enough for me to switch back to the K3II, despite the obvious noise penalty at iso 800-1600.
04-28-2018, 08:59 AM   #477
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QuoteOriginally posted by Chris Mak Quote
I went through the AF fine tune routine, and focus is accurate.
Everyone should judge for themselves, but for me, images between iso 100 and 400 lack the 'I can reach out and touch the subjects' feeling that the K3 images give me with the DA560.
Bottomline: image processing is very different, and not really suited for birding at low iso. I am of course not saying that images from the KP are bad, far from it, but the difference is absolutely enough for me to switch back to the K3II, despite the obvious noise penalty at iso 800-1600.
Nikon has two 'parallel' cameras - the D7200 for landscape and the D7500 for sports/events; looking at data, or just listening to personal experience, these two cameras are not interchangeable - there truly are cases where each is preferred. I believe this high noise processing really is built into the KP, K-70, and K-1ii, so Pentax really may need to provide two slightly different variants {essentially they're already doing this with FF as long as they carry the K-1} if they're to serve both markets.
04-28-2018, 09:47 AM   #478
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Chris please check is the issue is also visible in current DCU or Silkypix software when you inport your RAW files that show this problem. I find both more world accurate "by default" than C0 when it comes for pentax raw files readout. Still both can't replace Lightroom for my workflow use .
04-28-2018, 10:06 AM   #479
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QuoteOriginally posted by Chris Mak Quote
....the penalty of the new image processing is too high and harms the results too much. I will gladly takes more noise and loss of color at higher iso's if only I can get the great detail and clarity at iso100-400 from the K3 back.
Fortunately, my camera store still has the K3II.
After playing with several higher ISO files from the K-70 & KP, the one thing I have noticed is that, yes, there is less chroma & luminance noise, but some of the super fine detail goes with it. Even at lower ISOs. The overall image in the end does look slightly "better", but at the cost of having a slightly "artificial" look. You give up something for something. I guess we'll see what Pentax has in store for that upcoming K-3II replacement.
04-28-2018, 09:45 PM   #480
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QuoteOriginally posted by Chris Mak Quote
After getting the KP two months ago, I will be attempting to trade it in for a K3II on monday.
Taking about a thousand shots with the DA560, I have found two things:

-Iso performance is far better than it was with the K3 I had.
-this comes at a fatal price regarding image clarity and fine detail. Images look less alive and clear, and lack the very fine (feather) detail from the K3 series. While for general shooting this may not be objectionable, for birding with the DA560, I have found it fatal: the processing simply takes the great clarity and detail away that make the K3 + DA560 combo so special.

AF is better, and so are some other things, but for my use with the DA560, the penalty of the new image processing is too high and harms the results too much. I will gladly takes more noise and loss of color at higher iso's if only I can get the great detail and clarity at iso100-400 from the K3 back.
Fortunately, my camera store still has the K3II.

Pentax should really get the detail and clarity part in order with the K3 successor, or wildlife shooters are going to loose critical detail and the true to life quality of the K3 series.
Having used the Sony A7RII for two years, my feeling is, that only a new BSI sensor will bring true IQ improvements. Although successfull with regards to reducing noise, otherwise the accelerator thing is really only a trade off, and I now greatly am in favor of the possibility of switching the whole extra image processing off. The penalty for my use is unacceptable, at least with regards to the KP.
Of course, one should see these remarks in context: fine detail is everything when birding with the DA560. As a general use camera, it may be very different, although the loss of clarity and the true to life quality of the K3 is also somewhat worrying.

Chris
This is the first I've heard of this. I love the images the K3 II produces up to ISO 1600, so I'd hate to lose any of that IQ and can understand your issue. Have you tried more than one KP?
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