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03-04-2018, 12:00 PM - 1 Like   #106
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
You have to admit that dropping the K3 with no replacement in sight isn’t exactly a smooth model transition. I see the noise as being healthy, as it means that there is a vocal market wanting a higher quality APS-C camera. What would be disturbing is a ho hum attitude from a complacent user base saying “no big deal, we are happy with old design equipment, and don’t care that all you are selling is cheap plastic. Don’t worry that you are seemingly abandoning your customers, we are content as the world moves past us at an increasing pace”
It’s noise from the user base that spurs companies to bring new stuff to the market.
Look you missed my whole point which was there is just no pleasing some people regardless of what Pentax does. No one wants a new "flagship" APS-C DSLR frrom Pentax more than me. I skipped the K-3II since I didn't see a lot of improvement over the K-3 that I already had. I never saw the KP as a "flagship" model thus I didn't waste my money with it although it seems to be a terrific little camera. If Pentax announces tomorrow that they were bringing a new "flagship" APS-C DSLR to the market I'd be one of the first to pre-order one. So no one has waited longer than me unless they bought a K-5 or K-7 or earlier camera.

I really don't see much of a complacent user base and "noise" from some of the disgruntled user base isn't going to make Pentax move any faster. Until the time that a new "flagship" APS-C Pentax model comes out I guess i'll just complacently continue shooting with my not so plastic K-3.

Larry

03-04-2018, 12:16 PM   #107
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QuoteOriginally posted by Larrymc Quote
Look you missed my whole point which was there is just no pleasing some people regardless of what Pentax does. No one wants a new "flagship" APS-C DSLR frrom Pentax more than me. I skipped the K-3II since I didn't see a lot of improvement over the K-3 that I already had. I never saw the KP as a "flagship" model thus I didn't waste my money with it although it seems to be a terrific little camera. If Pentax announces tomorrow that they were bringing a new "flagship" APS-C DSLR to the market I'd be one of the first to pre-order one. So no one has waited longer than me unless they bought a K-5 or K-7 or earlier camera.

I really don't see much of a complacent user base and "noise" from some of the disgruntled user base isn't going to make Pentax move any faster. Until the time that a new "flagship" APS-C Pentax model comes out I guess i'll just complacently continue shooting with my not so plastic K-3.

Larry
Noise from the user base may not make Ricoh move faster, but are you certain that no noise from the user base would make them move at all?
03-04-2018, 12:22 PM   #108
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
Getting off topic with mirrorless, but Pentax has tried with K-01 and Q and not seemed to be too successful. Will they try again? Who knows.

To all the posts moaning that the K-3II replacement is not here "right now". I have a simple question: what sensor should they use in that camera? It is simple to say "they should have done this or that" but Pentax does not make the sensor, or a lot of the other parts. If the part they want to use is not available yet, then we all wait or use a part that is not as good or is outdated.
The KP and K70 seems to work fine with the existing 24MP sensor, so I see no reason for it to not working for a K3II replacement. To include the accellerator chip might be a bigger step in noise performance than will be on sensor level on a new generation sensor.

Pentax even managed to release a mk II camera recently using a sensor based on tech from K5 generation. I seems most users are looking forward to the image quality improvements from that camera.


QuoteQuote:
I see this as Pentax engineers going to the *"Camera Parts Trade Fair" in Japan. At the Sony booth they say what sensor is coming up soon. Sony says "we have this amazing xyz, but not in production until 2019". At the booth that makes the shutters the Pentax engineer says we need a shutter that will do this. The shutter maker says "no problem, design and testing will take until 20??". The same happens at dozens of part supplier booths, putting together the parts they want Pentax comes up with a schedule that they then have to match with their own engineering schedules. All is good until one of the part suppliers calls and says "legal is holding up the widget until it clears patent review. Delay will be about 6 months.: Pentax schedule is now disrupted. So another product is moved ahead because something has to be running down the production line.

* Note: "Camera Parts Trade Fair" is completely made up and used only as an example. But having worked in various industries all my life, something like it is surely being held.
The thing is that K3II was released almost 3 years ago, so it should have been plenty of time to plan a K3II replacement. On projects like this you usually develop the product in several branches so you don't get caught in a dead end if something goes against the plan. Because time to market can be critical and lost time can cost you a lot in lost revenue and you end up behind competition.

But I'm not sure it's this kind of delay that is behind this. I feel it's more that they preferred to release KP after K1 instead of working on a K3II replacement. Because KP could be released quicker, but it made the release of K3II replacement to be puched further into the future.
03-04-2018, 12:23 PM - 1 Like   #109
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Noise (not all from the user base, there are quite a few non-Pentaxians making noise), if anything, hinder Pentax' advancement. And it's purpose is not to help, but punish "bad boy Pentax" who didn't do as ordered... or to support another brand.

03-04-2018, 12:32 PM - 1 Like   #110
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K-? APSc dSLR is the topic of discussion.
03-04-2018, 12:36 PM   #111
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QuoteOriginally posted by Larrymc Quote
I really don't see much of a complacent user base and "noise" from some of the disgruntled user base isn't going to make Pentax move any faster.
QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Noise from the user base may not make Ricoh move faster, but are you certain that no noise from the user base would make them move at all?
There's good noise and bad noise, and in all things a balance to be struck.

Good noise, to me, is constructive opinions and criticism that might possibly encourage Ricoh to focus on certain things, whilst still displaying overall support for, and belief in, the brand. I can see why Ricoh might want to listen to that, and thankfully I'd say that represents most of the noise our members generate.

Bad noise is the repeated digs and throw-away "sound bite" complaints of a small but persistent and rather vocal portion of current and ex-Pentax owners (and those who've never owned Pentax), whose comments can - I believe - be quite damaging to the brand, given that posts on these forums are publicly visible and turn up right at the top of web searches. I do understand the frustration from some of those members, but often the way complaints are presented makes it sound like Ricoh has already lost those customers, or is about to imminently - no matter what it can realistically pull out of the hat. I can't imagine Ricoh would have much appetite to listen to the bad noise. And it sure does create an atmosphere of negativity.

Just my opinion, of course...

Last edited by BigMackCam; 03-04-2018 at 01:06 PM.
03-04-2018, 12:54 PM   #112
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
But I'm not sure it's this kind of delay that is behind this.


Keep in mind that there was a huge change in company structure over the past few years. Hoya gave way to Ricoh. Who knows the actual amount of confusion and misinformation during the transition? Certainly none of us.


But be assured, anytime one company gives way to another there will be chaos and uncertainty. And it takes time for the powers that be to sort things out. I doubt anyone here would appreciate the poor outcome if Ricoh stumbled in and ran roughshod through the engineering offices of Pentax without first assessing where the company was at, and then formulating a good plan for continued development of the then current projects, and developing a strategy for the future.


I feel that is why there seems to be a gap in the lineage of the APSC line of cameras. Being patient while the new guard is getting familiar with their new charge is a virtue. I am willing to wait. The recent announcement of the K-1 replacement got me excited, as I have been holding out for full frame. The prices still haven't really dropped yet though, and I am content to continue along with my K5IIs, K10D and *istDL, which all three still provide great performance.


Whatever Ricoh comes up with, it absolutely must support legacy glass. I shoot almost entirely manual, and like the creative flexibility that older lenses add to the creative process.


Give me an aperture ring, or don't give me new lenses.
03-04-2018, 12:55 PM - 2 Likes   #113
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Noise from the user base may not make Ricoh move faster, but are you certain that no noise from the user base would make them move at all?
Can you show me any specific instance where complaining has made Pentax move faster? I think Pentax has a vision of how they want their cameras to perform and they work toward that goal and that's their motivation to produce new product. In other words, like it or love it, they march to the beat of a different drummer.

Larry


Last edited by Racer X 69; 03-04-2018 at 01:16 PM. Reason: Language.
03-04-2018, 01:00 PM   #114
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But why wouldn’t you just buy an A7iii then? It’s the camera you’re asking for.

Releasing a k3 replacement at the same time as the K1 wouldn’t have made sense. You want those users to upgrade to FF, then collect the aps-c die hards with the next camera.
03-04-2018, 01:46 PM   #115
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QuoteOriginally posted by jpzk Quote
You seem to be in the "know" ?
Tells us more!
No, i dont pretend to know anything more than anyone else. Probably less. I'm just making a casual observation that when your only working on one high end crop camera at a time it doesnt matter what you call it. Its the one line. By the sounds of it that line will go back to resembling something closer to a K3 than a KP and I think that is good. I just think it is a bit of a stretch to say there is two parallel lines concurrently being produced by Pentax. No offence meant. Just my opinion and not a fact.
03-04-2018, 01:52 PM   #116
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QuoteOriginally posted by Albermarle Quote
I just think it is a bit of a stretch to say there is two parallel lines concurrently being produced by Pentax.
I'd guess that's probably fairly accurate, given the limited resources within the Pentax team. I imagine they consider the products as being within certain lines, though - e.g. entry / mid / upper level - and design them accordingly with suitable specifications and features, but I doubt there's a huge amount of parallel development going on. There'll be some development that's applicable to all lines, of course, even if it appears gradually (such as the imaging engine, and the accelerator seen first in the K-70, then the KP, and now the K-1II)...
03-04-2018, 01:53 PM   #117
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QuoteOriginally posted by skierd Quote
But why wouldn’t you just buy an A7iii then? It’s the camera you’re asking for.

Releasing a k3 replacement at the same time as the K1 wouldn’t have made sense. You want those users to upgrade to FF, then collect the aps-c die hards with the next camera.
It would be interesting to know how many bodies (or even systems) the typical Pentax user has. Many people here seem to be collectors, although clearly not everyone. I've kept both APS-C and 35FF bodies and lenses, because, while there's overlap between them, each has a different role to play in my photography, and I know some here think the same.

I suspect Pentax users exhibit a different ownership profile to users of the bigger brands, so I'm not convinced about the upgrade theory. Anyway, the K-1ii isn't a new camera, but it will be available almost immediately, whereas a replacement for the K-3ii probably wouldn't have been, so the cash outlays would still have been spread out, as, indeed they will be now, but even more so.
03-04-2018, 01:55 PM - 2 Likes   #118
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
It is odd, though, that a model could be discontinued before its replacement is ready. If it indicates a rework of the design (as with the D FA*70-200/2.8) rather than a stretched design timeline due to resource limitations, then I'm unsure if that would be more concerning or reassuring. I have to say that's pure speculation on my part, of course.
Perhaps they have enough stock to keep the K-3 II in stores until they launch the successor. Haven't seen any stores pull the K-3 II yet!

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03-04-2018, 01:55 PM   #119
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Oh, parallel in the sense of multiple cameras at once, probably not much if at all.

But parts, very much so. Accelerator is an example but AF is another one and testing features found later in other models.
03-04-2018, 01:55 PM   #120
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
It would be interesting to know how many bodies (or even systems) the typical Pentax user has.
That would make an interesting survey
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