The K-3 line will continue!

biz-engineer · 03-22-2018, 12:35 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Chris Mak

The Canon sensors have kept me away from Canon so far, but with the latest Canon FF sensors, things are (somewhat) looking up. Still not Sony level at all though..

Canon sensors have less dynamic range but same SNR as other sensors. More than 10 ev of DR is something needed when exposure is incorrect or pulling shadows. I never like the rendering of images with shadow significantly raised. Anyway, when shooting against the sun, it is 20 ev of DR that's needed to still be able to record colors with sufficient accuracy, so whatever digital camera is used it is necessary to take multiple shots with different exposures. I've used exposure fusion, it doesn't look like HDR and images are way better than playing with shadows. I have seen a lot of award winning photographs taken with Canon, and never felt dynamic range was an issue. Dynamic range is something made visible by website underexposing 6 stop and raising exposure in post... something that doesn't happen in practice if the exposure is correct to begin with.

mecrox · 03-22-2018, 02:51 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by monochrome

Things do change. Bayonet Mount happened. SMC Patents expired. Digital happened. Soccer Moms happened. MILC happened.

My wife’s great-grandmother’s family owned one of the premier carriage makers in New England for 100 years (until 1920) . . .

Interesting. This is off topic but bespoke recreations of traditional wooden Thames river craft for the local bigwigs command massive prices round here - beautiful old river launches, little rowing boats, etc. What goes around comes around ... but you somehow have to survive about a century before it does

Chris Mak · 03-22-2018, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

Canon sensors have less dynamic range but same SNR as other sensors. More than 10 ev of DR is something needed when exposure is incorrect or pulling shadows. I never like the rendering of images with shadow significantly raised. Anyway, when shooting against the sun, it is 20 ev of DR that's needed to still be able to record colors with sufficient accuracy, so whatever digital camera is used it is necessary to take multiple shots with different exposures. I've used exposure fusion, it doesn't look like HDR and images are way better than playing with shadows. I have seen a lot of award winning photographs taken with Canon, and never felt dynamic range was an issue. Dynamic range is something made visible by website underexposing 6 stop and raising exposure in post... something that doesn't happen in practice if the exposure is correct to begin with.

Yes, and what has eased my concern of losing DR when going Canon, is the fact that with birding, wildlife you generally do not need the same DR as with e.g. landscapes to begin with. And that you tend to end up with iso values that are higher up, like iso 800, where the DR difference is less,

I do remember though, that with the Olympus E3 particularly, the lack of dynamic range was really an issue, and so was lack of color depth. That steered me towards Pentax (and the DA560 on the roadmap) in the first place. But the coming 7DIII will be fine no doubt, worlds better than the old Olympus E3 that gave me so much headaches in anything other than ideal light. The ability to work on a raw file is great with the Sony sensors, also the KP is near perfect in that regard.

But what you are saying about so many great Canon (wildlife/birding?) shots: the lenses are really good, and the Canon super tele lenses are particularly amazing, if going by the multitude of superb images taken with these lenses. Taken by mostly very experienced photographers with very expensive lenses, but then, you only buy such a lens once or twice in a lifetime I suppose...

SSGGeezer · 03-22-2018, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by Chris Mak

But what you are saying about so many great Canon (wildlife/birding?) shots: the lenses are really good, and the Canon super tele lenses are particularly amazing, if going by the multitude of superb images taken with these lenses. Taken by mostly very experienced photographers with very expensive lenses, but then, you only buy such a lens once or twice in a lifetime I suppose...

How much are we talking about here? A used car? Down payment on a home? If it fits the bill, super, but I just shudder when I see some of the prices on Canon and Nikon high end glass.

Chris Mak · 03-22-2018, 04:14 PM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by SSGGeezer

How much are we talking about here? A used car? Down payment on a home? If it fits the bill, super, but I just shudder when I see some of the prices on Canon and Nikon high end glass.

Just about acceptable for a long term investment?
The Canon 400mm f4 DOII is 6799,- in Europe. The DA560 is 5699,- in Europe. The Canon of course still needs a 489,- 1.4ext.
For me, it is possible to trade in the DA560 + HDDA1.4tc. So I am not starting from scratch. Honestly, the few thousand that I will lose on the DA560 trade in, will have been more than worth 5 years of images that only such a lens can get you, and let's not forget the satisfaction that using such a lens brings. So it is a bit different than with more regular lenses.
Ultimately though, portability and BIF AF are the decisive points. I cannot e.g. take the DA560 on a plane in hand luggage, and I am planning to go on various trips in coming years.
I know Pentax does not make such specialty lenses, they would only sell a few, and the DA560 itself was somewhat of a surprise. But chosing such a lens also has some very practical considerations. A compact 400/4 lens that takes converters very well is definitely a niche lens.

Chris

**KC0PET** · 03-22-2018, 05:39 PM - **1 Like**

Since I will probably buy one after they have been out for quite a while and there are good deals on the used market, I guess it will be a very long wait for me

Pentax_WA · 03-22-2018, 09:18 PM

Japan's Ricoh to cut 4,000 jobs at home, Europe - Nikkei

Japan's Ricoh to cut 4,000 jobs at home, Europe - Nikkei By Reuters
It seems like the rep I talked to was right.

Ronald Oakes · 03-22-2018, 09:34 PM

Does this mean there will be a nice Price Drop on the KP when the K-3II successor comes out ?

Pentax_WA · 03-22-2018, 09:47 PM

Originally posted by Ronald Oakes

Does this mean there will be a nice Price Drop on the KP when the K-3II successor comes out ?

With every purchase of K3ii, you get 50% discount on KP. ��

Ronald Oakes · 03-22-2018, 09:55 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Pentax_WA

With every purchase of K3ii, you get 50% discount on KP. ��

Huh ?

Pentax_WA · 03-22-2018, 10:58 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Ronald Oakes

Huh ?

Sarcasm!

thibs · 03-22-2018, 11:14 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Pentax_WA

Japan's Ricoh to cut 4,000 jobs at home, Europe - Nikkei

Japan's Ricoh to cut 4,000 jobs at home, Europe - Nikkei By Reuters
It seems like the rep I talked to was right.

Those jobs are related to their Office business according to the article.
What is there to link to imaging business ?

beholder3 · 03-22-2018, 11:40 PM - **1 Like**

Good signal. Ricoh seems to be doing much better than expected.
Compared to the overall workforce Nikon fired 400% of the volume of people Ricoh fires now.
And Ricoh is exclusively firing in the office equipment area, whereas Nikon fired exclusively in their camera business.

Kunzite · 03-23-2018, 12:14 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Pentax_WA

Japan's Ricoh to cut 4,000 jobs at home, Europe - Nikkei

Japan's Ricoh to cut 4,000 jobs at home, Europe - Nikkei By Reuters
It seems like the rep I talked to was right.

"The company will let go off 3,000 employees through a sale of a logistics unit in Japan and trim management positions in Europe"
It seems he wasn't.

**Rondec** · 03-23-2018, 02:27 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Pentax_WA

Japan's Ricoh to cut 4,000 jobs at home, Europe - Nikkei

Japan's Ricoh to cut 4,000 jobs at home, Europe - Nikkei By Reuters
It seems like the rep I talked to was right.

There really is no mention of the imaging arm in this article and everything seems focused on the copier business -- which isn't surprising, considering that still is the main bulk of the company. Still, I hardly see any confirmation of the rep's knowledge here.

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03-22-2018, 12:35 PM - 1 Like	#301
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232	Originally posted by Chris Mak The Canon sensors have kept me away from Canon so far, but with the latest Canon FF sensors, things are (somewhat) looking up. Still not Sony level at all though.. Canon sensors have less dynamic range but same SNR as other sensors. More than 10 ev of DR is something needed when exposure is incorrect or pulling shadows. I never like the rendering of images with shadow significantly raised. Anyway, when shooting against the sun, it is 20 ev of DR that's needed to still be able to record colors with sufficient accuracy, so whatever digital camera is used it is necessary to take multiple shots with different exposures. I've used exposure fusion, it doesn't look like HDR and images are way better than playing with shadows. I have seen a lot of award winning photographs taken with Canon, and never felt dynamic range was an issue. Dynamic range is something made visible by website underexposing 6 stop and raising exposure in post... something that doesn't happen in practice if the exposure is correct to begin with.

03-22-2018, 02:51 PM - 1 Like	#302
mecrox Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Oxford, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,375	Originally posted by monochrome Things do change. Bayonet Mount happened. SMC Patents expired. Digital happened. Soccer Moms happened. MILC happened. My wife’s great-grandmother’s family owned one of the premier carriage makers in New England for 100 years (until 1920) . . . Interesting. This is off topic but bespoke recreations of traditional wooden Thames river craft for the local bigwigs command massive prices round here - beautiful old river launches, little rowing boats, etc. What goes around comes around ... but you somehow have to survive about a century before it does

03-22-2018, 03:09 PM	#303
Chris Mak Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2013 Photos: Albums Posts: 639	Originally posted by biz-engineer Canon sensors have less dynamic range but same SNR as other sensors. More than 10 ev of DR is something needed when exposure is incorrect or pulling shadows. I never like the rendering of images with shadow significantly raised. Anyway, when shooting against the sun, it is 20 ev of DR that's needed to still be able to record colors with sufficient accuracy, so whatever digital camera is used it is necessary to take multiple shots with different exposures. I've used exposure fusion, it doesn't look like HDR and images are way better than playing with shadows. I have seen a lot of award winning photographs taken with Canon, and never felt dynamic range was an issue. Dynamic range is something made visible by website underexposing 6 stop and raising exposure in post... something that doesn't happen in practice if the exposure is correct to begin with. Yes, and what has eased my concern of losing DR when going Canon, is the fact that with birding, wildlife you generally do not need the same DR as with e.g. landscapes to begin with. And that you tend to end up with iso values that are higher up, like iso 800, where the DR difference is less, I do remember though, that with the Olympus E3 particularly, the lack of dynamic range was really an issue, and so was lack of color depth. That steered me towards Pentax (and the DA560 on the roadmap) in the first place. But the coming 7DIII will be fine no doubt, worlds better than the old Olympus E3 that gave me so much headaches in anything other than ideal light. The ability to work on a raw file is great with the Sony sensors, also the KP is near perfect in that regard. But what you are saying about so many great Canon (wildlife/birding?) shots: the lenses are really good, and the Canon super tele lenses are particularly amazing, if going by the multitude of superb images taken with these lenses. Taken by mostly very experienced photographers with very expensive lenses, but then, you only buy such a lens once or twice in a lifetime I suppose...

03-22-2018, 03:48 PM	#304
SSGGeezer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: Indiana, U.S. Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,845	Originally posted by Chris Mak But what you are saying about so many great Canon (wildlife/birding?) shots: the lenses are really good, and the Canon super tele lenses are particularly amazing, if going by the multitude of superb images taken with these lenses. Taken by mostly very experienced photographers with very expensive lenses, but then, you only buy such a lens once or twice in a lifetime I suppose... How much are we talking about here? A used car? Down payment on a home? If it fits the bill, super, but I just shudder when I see some of the prices on Canon and Nikon high end glass.

03-22-2018, 04:14 PM - 2 Likes	#305
Chris Mak Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2013 Photos: Albums Posts: 639	Originally posted by SSGGeezer How much are we talking about here? A used car? Down payment on a home? If it fits the bill, super, but I just shudder when I see some of the prices on Canon and Nikon high end glass. Just about acceptable for a long term investment? The Canon 400mm f4 DOII is 6799,- in Europe. The DA560 is 5699,- in Europe. The Canon of course still needs a 489,- 1.4ext. For me, it is possible to trade in the DA560 + HDDA1.4tc. So I am not starting from scratch. Honestly, the few thousand that I will lose on the DA560 trade in, will have been more than worth 5 years of images that only such a lens can get you, and let's not forget the satisfaction that using such a lens brings. So it is a bit different than with more regular lenses. Ultimately though, portability and BIF AF are the decisive points. I cannot e.g. take the DA560 on a plane in hand luggage, and I am planning to go on various trips in coming years. I know Pentax does not make such specialty lenses, they would only sell a few, and the DA560 itself was somewhat of a surprise. But chosing such a lens also has some very practical considerations. A compact 400/4 lens that takes converters very well is definitely a niche lens. Chris

03-22-2018, 05:39 PM - 1 Like	#306
KC0PET Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Central Missouri Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,273	Since I will probably buy one after they have been out for quite a while and there are good deals on the used market, I guess it will be a very long wait for me

03-22-2018, 09:18 PM	#307
Pentax_WA Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2017 Location: Seattle Posts: 307	Japan's Ricoh to cut 4,000 jobs at home, Europe - Nikkei Japan's Ricoh to cut 4,000 jobs at home, Europe - Nikkei By Reuters It seems like the rep I talked to was right.

03-22-2018, 09:34 PM	#308
Ronald Oakes Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2017 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,582	Does this mean there will be a nice Price Drop on the KP when the K-3II successor comes out ?

03-22-2018, 09:47 PM	#309
Pentax_WA Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2017 Location: Seattle Posts: 307	Originally posted by Ronald Oakes Does this mean there will be a nice Price Drop on the KP when the K-3II successor comes out ? With every purchase of K3ii, you get 50% discount on KP. ��

03-22-2018, 09:55 PM - 1 Like	#310
Ronald Oakes Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2017 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,582	Originally posted by Pentax_WA With every purchase of K3ii, you get 50% discount on KP. �� Huh ?

03-22-2018, 10:58 PM - 1 Like	#311
Pentax_WA Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2017 Location: Seattle Posts: 307	Originally posted by Ronald Oakes Huh ? Sarcasm!

03-22-2018, 11:14 PM - 1 Like	#312
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Originally posted by Pentax_WA Japan's Ricoh to cut 4,000 jobs at home, Europe - Nikkei Japan's Ricoh to cut 4,000 jobs at home, Europe - Nikkei By Reuters It seems like the rep I talked to was right. Those jobs are related to their Office business according to the article. What is there to link to imaging business ?

03-22-2018, 11:40 PM - 1 Like	#313
beholder3 Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,112	Good signal. Ricoh seems to be doing much better than expected. Compared to the overall workforce Nikon fired 400% of the volume of people Ricoh fires now. And Ricoh is exclusively firing in the office equipment area, whereas Nikon fired exclusively in their camera business.

03-23-2018, 12:14 AM - 1 Like	#314
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by Pentax_WA Japan's Ricoh to cut 4,000 jobs at home, Europe - Nikkei Japan's Ricoh to cut 4,000 jobs at home, Europe - Nikkei By Reuters It seems like the rep I talked to was right. "The company will let go off 3,000 employees through a sale of a logistics unit in Japan and trim management positions in Europe" It seems he wasn't.

03-23-2018, 02:27 AM - 1 Like	#315
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	Originally posted by Pentax_WA Japan's Ricoh to cut 4,000 jobs at home, Europe - Nikkei Japan's Ricoh to cut 4,000 jobs at home, Europe - Nikkei By Reuters It seems like the rep I talked to was right. There really is no mention of the imaging arm in this article and everything seems focused on the copier business -- which isn't surprising, considering that still is the main bulk of the company. Still, I hardly see any confirmation of the rep's knowledge here.