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04-11-2018, 05:56 AM   #181
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
It is better for a consumer elcetronic firm like Sony that is present in every consumer electronics store on the planet, along with toasters and washing machines. Sony wasn't able to sell DSLR's to photographers.
I think that Sony has found their niche with e-mount. The DSLT cameras Sony was making just didn't go over with the people. I don't think the photographic community was ready for the technology and they did a terrible job marketing the product and making it less confusing. I think that it has been a case of "right place at the right time" for mirrorless. The photographic community has been expanding and there has been much more interest in forward thinking, technologically advanced cameras. Sony is great at making high tech electronic devices and the technologies like continuous eye AF have caught people's eye.

I think they've reached a point where people are willing to overlook some of the Sony quirks (poor menu system, limited firmware updates, questionable ergonomics and build quality, "star eater.") because of the advantages. The popularity of the FE line has also brought in a lot of revenue so Sony has been able to make quick strides in building new lenses and improving some of their weaknesses.

04-11-2018, 07:14 AM   #182
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonathan Mac Quote
This is exactly what I thought.

In general while reading the interview I thought that this guy world make a great politician - he replied without really giving any information away. Most of the info he did provide only served to show how far behind they are compared to what we had imagined.


Exactly what I thought !
04-11-2018, 10:03 AM   #183
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QuoteOriginally posted by k1man Quote
the biggest problem i have seen with mirror less cameras is the size of the lenses, same size more or less as FF for the k1 etc but on a piss willy body unless all are F4 or so, crazy but true, ian
Totally true. A FF mirror-less system will require the same focal lengths as a mirror'ed system given a particular field of view. A 200mm lens is still a 200mm lens. So, the lenses are not necessarily smaller. Perhaps wide angle and ultra wide angle lens designs are simplified because of the significantly shorter registration distance. I don't know.

A camera by itself is as useful (or useless) as a lens by itself. The two need to be considered together. I have a Sony A7 II. The body is small and thin and nice to behold by itself. Adding a lens changes that and suddenly it becomes very awkward. The K-1, for as bulky as it may be, with long lenses is generally well balanced. It doesn't feel lopsided with a long lens. I do wish everything was lighter though, especially when adding a battery grip and on-camera flash.

I am a huge proponent of u4/3. It's a system of small bodies and small lenses. I have an older Olympus M10. Adding a Lumix 35-100mm f/2.8 lens is hardly a burden. You don't even feel the Lumix 12-35mm f/2.8 even though you know its there. A small prime like the 20mm f/1.7 practically blends into the body.

In the short term today's current FF mirror-less offerings will sell well. They are new, flashy, and still evolving. At some point I think they will evolve into a more traditional mirror'ed DSLR design. u4/3 went through that. Look at the M1 mk II or the offerings from Lumix. Thankfully, they still have "small" options available.

Let the K-1 be what it is ... a chunky, full featured, form fitting DSLR with a mirror that flaps like quail's wing. Just make it lighter.
04-11-2018, 10:19 AM   #184
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QuoteOriginally posted by 6BQ5 Quote
Perhaps wide angle and ultra wide angle lens designs are simplified because of the significantly shorter registration distance. I don't know
My understanding is that you’re right. It is possible to design smaller wide angle lenses due to the shorter registration distance. Lenses like the Loxia 21, Sony 12-24 (small for what it is) and Sony 16-35 f/2.8 (also small for what it is) show this. In my opinion there is only a size advantage with the FE system up to a certain point. This is especially true if using autofocus lenses.

I think it’s important for people to know this going in. My current kit is smaller than the equivalent kit would be if I was shooting with an equivalent FULL FRAME kit. Since I prefer using a FF camera, this works for me, but my K3ii is actually a similar size to my a7.

Here is the a7 with the FE 16-35 f4 compared to the k3ii with 12-24 as an example.
http://j.mp/2IKVgsJ

All of the longer pro grade zooms are very large and heavy for the Sony, although the FE 100-400 was able to shave a little weight compared to the competition.

I think it’s all a compromise and we have to choose our favorite one.


Last edited by str8talk83; 04-11-2018 at 10:35 AM.
04-11-2018, 10:30 AM - 1 Like   #185
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QuoteOriginally posted by 6BQ5 Quote
Totally true. A FF mirror-less system will require the same focal lengths as a mirror'ed system given a particular field of view. A 200mm lens is still a 200mm lens. So, the lenses are not necessarily smaller. Perhaps wide angle and ultra wide angle lens designs are simplified because of the significantly shorter registration distance. I don't know.
Yep! In theory, wide and UWA lenses could be more compact on mirrorless camera. But the properties of silicon sensors make it hard to take advantage of the shorter registration distance so a lot of the wide angle lenses on mirrorless digital are not that compact.

The result is that a mirrorless body might be compact but if one carries more than a few lenses, the whole system is as big or bigger than a DSLR.

Last edited by photoptimist; 04-11-2018 at 12:36 PM. Reason: typo
04-11-2018, 10:42 AM - 2 Likes   #186
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I don't get it. This whole registration distance thing is a non sequitur for me.

The K-01 was a semi-flop for a few reasons, most of it having to do with boxy goofy looking shape and ergonomics more that just the thickness of the body.

Witness all the people complaining about the KP ergonomics (many from people who never even held one), even with the large add on grip. Put a big F2.8 zoom on it... and people get grumpy on the forums.

Look at the Sony A7 line up... all the large, front heavy zeiss and F2.8 zooms fair no better than the KP in the ergonomic front heavy department.

If Ricoh does do a mirrorless again someday, I hope they buck the trend and give us something that uses or is at least fully functional with existing K mount glass, in a COMFORTABLE TO HOLD body with a deep grip, balanced for use with large aperture glass!

A K-3 size APSC mirrorless or K-1 size FF mirrorless would make total sense to me... AND you have room in the grip for a battery that will blow the doors off of Sony's shot count per charge.

Yearning for a mee-too clone that will have the same issues they already have over at the competition just makes no sense to me. Ricoh/Pentax has always marched to their own drum and really does build quality and ergonomics well ( K-01 excepted) and I hope they stick to those strong suits in the future, and not fall prey to trying to please people who just want a sony with a pentax badge on it.

Eric
04-11-2018, 10:57 AM - 2 Likes   #187
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QuoteOriginally posted by Erictator Quote
Witness all the people complaining about the KP ergonomics (many from people who never even held one), even with the large add on grip. Put a big F2.8 zoom on it... and people get grumpy on the forums.

Look at the Sony A7 line up... all the large, front heavy zeiss and F2.8 zooms fair no better than the KP in the ergonomic front heavy department.
The moral? Whatever Pentax does, it's bashed to death.
Whatever others are doing, it's praised.
04-11-2018, 11:24 AM - 1 Like   #188
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QuoteOriginally posted by DimC Quote
Exactly what I thought !
I agree, everything happens in the mind. Just being aware of that recently saved me from spending 8 grands on a Sony system just to realize that the image out is the same as from my K1 already paid, I am glad I did not drop the money on the Sony, the last time I was out, if the subject was there or not there, whether I had a the K1 or Sony A7III wouldn't change anything in the image because both system are an overkill, but it certainly going for Sony would have changed my bank account to a great deal. Go on which those joke of marketing reviews and you could easily spend 8 grands per year on new camera system to see no difference in your images, beside key things like shutter, aperture, CMOS sensor and memory storage, the amount of supposedly new feature that we never use are not lacking. Then there was this guy who spent 25 grands on Nikon gear who encouraged me to drop Pentax and buy Nikon, I just wondered what benefit he would get from it except trying to sell me the Nikon gear he realized he spent too much on it.


Last edited by biz-engineer; 04-11-2018 at 11:34 AM.
04-11-2018, 11:37 AM - 1 Like   #189
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QuoteOriginally posted by Erictator Quote
I don't get it. This whole registration distance thing is a non sequitur for me.

The K-01 was a semi-flop for a few reasons, most of it having to do with boxy goofy looking shape and ergonomics more that just the thickness of the body.

Witness all the people complaining about the KP ergonomics (many from people who never even held one), even with the large add on grip. Put a big F2.8 zoom on it... and people get grumpy on the forums.

Look at the Sony A7 line up... all the large, front heavy zeiss and F2.8 zooms fair no better than the KP in the ergonomic front heavy department.

If Ricoh does do a mirrorless again someday, I hope they buck the trend and give us something that uses or is at least fully functional with existing K mount glass, in a COMFORTABLE TO HOLD body with a deep grip, balanced for use with large aperture glass!

A K-3 size APSC mirrorless or K-1 size FF mirrorless would make total sense to me... AND you have room in the grip for a battery that will blow the doors off of Sony's shot count per charge.

Yearning for a mee-too clone that will have the same issues they already have over at the competition just makes no sense to me. Ricoh/Pentax has always marched to their own drum and really does build quality and ergonomics well ( K-01 excepted) and I hope they stick to those strong suits in the future, and not fall prey to trying to please people who just want a sony with a pentax badge on it.

Eric
I'm guessing l'm not the only one who would have purchased a K-01 if it'd had an EVF, but purchased a K-30 to get a viewfinder. As far as size is concerned, I'd much rather have a KP than another monstrosity.... we did handle long lenses with svelte cameras such as my Super Program


04-11-2018, 11:44 AM - 2 Likes   #190
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I'm guessing l'm not the only one who would have purchased a K-01 if it'd had an EVF, but purchased a K-30 to get a viewfinder. As far as size is concerned, I'd much rather have a KP than another monstrosity.... we did handle long lenses with svelte cameras such as my Super Program

I guess since people don’t need to focus lenses now they haven’t learned to support a camera in the left palm with fingers on the lens barrel.

.:
04-11-2018, 11:44 AM - 1 Like   #191
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
The moral? Whatever Pentax does, it's bashed to death. Whatever others are doing, it's praised.
yes, it is because camera owners believe they have made the better choice, including Pentaxians! Nikon buyers say Canon is not good, and Canon owners can stand Nikon. It is the same with Sony, anything that threaten the choice they make is going to be fought to death. Same with Fuji. The technical reality is that the owner who spent the less money for the capability is a smart ass. I know a guy who uses an old D700... gosh you'd see his pictures, you couldn't believe how beautiful they are, simply because he is not interested in gear , he is spending most of his time looking for compelling subjects and that make a huge difference in the pictures he takes.
04-11-2018, 11:50 AM - 3 Likes   #192
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Nikon buyers say Canon is not good, and Canon owners can stand Nikon. It is the same with Sony, anything that threaten the choice they make is going to be fought to death. Same with Fuji.
Yet weirdly, Pentax buyers say Pentax is not good.
04-11-2018, 12:01 PM   #193
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I know a guy who uses an old D700... gosh you'd see his pictures, you couldn't believe how beautiful they are, simply because he is not interested in gear , he is spending most of his time looking for compelling subjects and that make a huge difference in the pictures he takes.
I think this is key. We are much better off using our gear then we are obsessing about the latest and greatest. Sometimes we run into real limitations, but I know that in my experience I'm usually the limitation and I'm able to make the gear I have work if I really try or come up with something new and interesting, or if I challenge myself.

It's like in wildlife photography. Someone can spend hours in the field trying to get close to wildlife using camouflage, blinds etc. using super telephotos, or they can set up a perch near a feeder in the backyard and shoot through their kitchen window. Some of the best bird photos I've ever seen were taken this way and it is MUCH harder to take quality images out in the field. You can even get away with using cheaper lenses since you are much closer and not having to crop and deal with as many uncontrollable variables. I enjoy the field experience more, but that doesn't mean that it's the best method.
04-11-2018, 02:49 PM - 1 Like   #194
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Good grief the A7 looks like it has terrible ergonomics judging from the top view of both cameras! The wide chunky shallow grip must be the pits to hold with a long heavy lens and the button locations look very user unfriendly!!

Just my two cents!

QuoteOriginally posted by str8talk83 Quote
Here is the a7 with the FE 16-35 f4 compared to the k3ii with 12-24 as an example.
Compact Camera Meter
I think it’s all a compromise and we have to choose our favorite one.
04-11-2018, 03:09 PM - 3 Likes   #195
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The A7 is the first generation FF mirrorless and has many problems. It should not be the touch stone for a discussion of mirrorless. I have stayed with Pentax and the K-1 but the A9 and A7RIII which I did own and use extensively with most of the GM lenses are outstanding cameras. Easy to hold and a delight to use. I intend to continue my 40 year relationship with Pentax ILCs which I love but I do get a bit annoyed at the constant Sony bashing. I get it that some people cannot use the EVFs but for me the EVFs in the latest Sonys are wonderful. De gustibus non disputandum est.
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