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04-17-2018, 07:39 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
All we have to do is see if they tested anyone else the same way, and how they did on it. If you can't find anything to compare it too, someone else wearing the same clothing, then the whole test is nonsense. If there are honest comparisons then it doesn't mean anything.

Intent or not, the test was meaningless.
No, it was not meaningless. But it was inconclusive as in not helpful.
I agree what you wrote with red being harder to focus on for phase detection AF, but it is easier for the RGB-mesurement sensor to follow the object, thus the sensor knows where to focus and will not loose it. However, this is speculation.
Nevertheless, a helpful test would include a test where more variables are changed one by one.
Take a white/checkered hard to seperate object and test it with different speeds. Same maybe with a colorful/distinctive object. Thus, determining the limit of the system, which might bring you something like 90%@10km/h 80%@20km/h 70%@30km/h 10%@40km/h and 10%@50km/h. And the Nikon might have 80%@30km/h and 70%@40km which would show clearly where the differences and limits really are (all values made up by me). Now we only know that at an unknown speed another system worked better.

04-17-2018, 07:50 AM   #32
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@MMVIII You also must control for DoF (widest lens aperture). You shouln’t test one camera with an f/2.8 zoom (K-1) and compare to and contrast that with another using an f/4 prime (D810), both wide open.
04-17-2018, 07:53 AM - 1 Like   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
Fujifilm understands this well and gives its users real improvements through Firmware updates.
I knew this was coming. This is where I state that Fuji merely releases immature product and spends the remainder of the product life cycle exposing features that should have been in the original release but were too buggy at the time for public consumption and where the "you fanboys should wake up, its the 21st century" response is returned by whomever.

Back on topic (sort of). There are misconceptions regarding firmware, computing power, and our cameras. The various processors and controllers are purpose-dedicated and firmware is coded directly against those purposes. That is how firmware is differentiated from high-level stuff like operating systems, even the embedded kind. Both involve code, but there the similarities end. Freeing computing power for one aspect of image processing does not mean those cycles are available for use by processes running on other chips.


Steve

(...has sat through oh so many bug scrubs and have an inkling of how this aspect of business works...)

Last edited by stevebrot; 04-17-2018 at 08:46 AM.
04-17-2018, 07:57 AM - 1 Like   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
@MMVIII You also must control for DoF (widest lens aperture). You shouln’t test one camera with an f/2.8 zoom (K-1) and compare to and contrast that with another using an f/4 prime (D810), both wide open.
agreed, the parameters should be comparable!
I think the most annoying thing is the semiquantitaviness and false impression of precision and repetitiveness of the test from dpr, which wants to give exactly this impression by using numbers and saying the c-af of pentax has 3 in focus the nikon 9 but not setting the same variables or at least testing their influence.

04-17-2018, 08:02 AM - 2 Likes   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
The Mk.1 Jaguar E-type *should* have had a full-syncromesh gearbox instead of the Moss unit. If it had, maybe owners wouldn't have had so much crunching and grinding changing in and out of first gear. A full-syncro box was released for the Mk.2 model. Jaguar didn't offer free gearbox upgrades to owners of the Mk.1. Those owners bought what they'd bought, and it was the best the company could offer at the time. "Caveat emptor"...
I love it when the car examples come in. I never drove the car, but my dad owned a 1950 XK120 roadster. The transmission was beastly and required double-clutching on downshift into both first and second gears. Dad sometimes found this to be a handful on a tight right turn on residential streets (here in the U.S.) while wrestling with the huge steering wheel and somewhat clumsy pedal placement. I guess that is sort of like shooting bicycles with the K-1.


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04-17-2018, 08:04 AM - 3 Likes   #36
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I think it's a bit naive to see the Fuji firmware updates as gifts to their customers. The work involved in updating Fuji cameras logically has to be done by someone, and that cost logically has to be covered somehow. In the end comes back to the customer. Where I live a Fuji camera seems to cost about 20% more than the equivalent Pentax. I think that would cover the firmware updates and then some. I know which I prefer as a customer. And actually Ricoh does add features to their cameras through firmware updates. There are numerous instances of this.
04-17-2018, 08:19 AM   #37
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I'm pretty interested in the APS-C flagship aspects of the interview. Won't be a mild evolution of the K-3! Wondering what they'll bring to market. I hope it's more like a K-5 housing with a nice big top-plate LCD and general control layout but it's hard to say right now.

Why are you all arguing about Fuji firmwares and truck transmissions?
04-17-2018, 08:21 AM - 2 Likes   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by pres589 Quote
Why are you all arguing about Fuji firmwares and truck transmissions?
Because the interview is too optimistic to discuss.

04-17-2018, 08:21 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by pres589 Quote
I'm pretty interested in the APS-C flagship aspects of the interview. Won't be a mild evolution of the K-3! Wondering what they'll bring to market.
Yes, I picked up on that too... very interested to see what they come up with!
04-17-2018, 08:22 AM - 2 Likes   #40
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The story told on the forum..... the Fuji 645 was going to seriously hurt 645z sales.

The truth.
QuoteQuote:
DE: Interesting. It’s also interesting that you said that there was this kind of a momentary, short-term effect, that you saw some sales drop, but then it was limited time. And so sales for 645Z are continuing strong for you?

TA: Yes, yes.
I wonder if those Fuji people will now adjust their imaginary world view to closer reflect reality.
If you want to extrapolate., mirrorless doesn't affect SLR sales. Both can work along side each other. It would appear to be a different market, once the initial purchases by people who didn't have a mirrorless option before now and suddenly had one bought into Fuji, but once those sales were gone, it didn't affect Pentax at all. Pentax sales rebounded to previous levels.

Funny, in all the previous chatter I don't remember anyone suggesting that as a possibility. A little bit of actual evidence goes a long way towards the accuracy of these kinds of predictions.

My guess is the reason for the decline in dedicated camera sales has more to do with the improvements in smart phones than mirrorless, and that is affecting all dedicated cameras pretty much equally. I went to my niece's wedding a few weekends ago, I shot with my K-1, but I was quite impressed with the images people got with their phones, even in really bad light. I can even imagine a time when, I buy something like an iPhone 10 with my camera account. Fuji and companies like them are buying into a rapidly shrinking market. At this point changing market conditions have to be impacting their projected initial market analysis. My guess is the new comers are in a lot more trouble than Pentax is. And Pentax doesn't appear to be in any trouble at all, despite all the doom and gloom of some on the forum. Pentax appears to be thriving.

They continue to excel at things, no one else even thought of, and beat their own expectations in sales projections.

Last edited by normhead; 04-17-2018 at 08:31 AM.
04-17-2018, 08:32 AM - 1 Like   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
My guess is the reason for the decline in dedicated camera sales has more to do with the improvements in smart phones than mirrorless, and that is affecting all dedicated cameras pretty much equally.
You could be right.

My recent thinking - and I recall someone (might even have been you, Norm?) mentioning something similar in another thread a few weeks or months back - is that DSLRs, whilst still improving, have pretty much matured in terms of both the product and market. Improvements can still be made, but we're unlikely to see anything beyond incremental change in image quality and performance, and people are happily sticking with the already-excellent DSLRs they bought three-to-five years ago.

Mirrorless cameras, still offer some room for innovation (although I'd suggest even that range of possibilities is thinning), and the market isn't so mature yet either. What I find interesting, though, is that there hasn't been a climb in mirrorless sales, as such. The overall market for cameras in shrinking, and mirrorless models have done well to more-or-less maintain sales volumes - but there's no big rise in them either...

Rumours of the DSLR's death have been grossly exaggerated
04-17-2018, 08:38 AM   #42
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Right. Likely is a combination of smartphones hitting the low end (people not interested at all in photography realizing they don't need more than their phone) and the DSLRs being mature products. We shouldn't look for a single cause.

I'd say the mirrorless are mature products, too - especially seeing the recent Sonys. The mirrorless revolution already happened.
04-17-2018, 08:47 AM - 1 Like   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by pres589 Quote
Why are you all arguing about Fuji firmwares and truck transmissions?
Truck transmissions?

The Fuji firmware branch in the discussion is because that is what always happens when someone (often the same one) makes the claim that a desired feature (say K-cup support) is easily accomplished as a simple (emphasis on simple) firmware change. The expected response is "says who?" with the fairly quick assertion that Fuji owners enjoy rapid and numerous new features at frequent intervals and that Ricoh (and by inference Nikon, Canon, Olympus, et al) should do the same. It is predictable as rain in Portland in April (our current condition) and a Pentax Forums tradition.


Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 04-17-2018 at 08:53 AM.
04-17-2018, 08:50 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I'd say the mirrorless are mature products, too - especially seeing the recent Sonys. The mirrorless revolution already happened.
Yes, you're probably right... But there have been big jumps in mirrorless capability in the last year, if you consider things like the high continuous shooting rate with silent / electronic shutter and no EVF blackout. That's pretty significant stuff, technically speaking, and a greater jump in capability than we could probably expect from any area of DSLR functionality. So whilst I'd agree that mirrorless cameras probably have matured, it feels like there's still room for more to be done (though, as I said, the opportunities to do so are shrinking there too)...
04-17-2018, 08:52 AM - 2 Likes   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Truck transmissions?
I think he just walked in here and referred to the E-Type as a truck, and expected to escape with his life
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