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06-10-2018, 03:25 PM   #316
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QuoteOriginally posted by asahi man Quote
OK.....more lenses in near future than I thought.....a clear plan about the different systems, new service like Japan and lenses and maybe September a clear statement about the Pentax future in the Ricoh family
Sorry, that must be all about this.
But, amateur photographer is so wrong.....wronger like the rain weather forecast for Las Vegas
We all hope you are correct.

https://www.reviewjournal.com/weather/strong-winds-hit-las-vegas-valley-rain...-next-weekend/

06-10-2018, 03:36 PM - 1 Like   #317
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I'm not sure what you mean by 'noise'. Most of the stuff I'm seeing right now are just the usual stuff - people who want to control what Pentax does, people who just want to complain about Pentax in general {which the article starting this thread seems to fit into}, etc.
QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
@Adam is trying to encourage us to remain active here all summer.
Agreed and agreed.

noise
(noiz)

1. noun
conventional remarks or other sounds that suggest some emotion or quality.

2.technical
random fluctuations that obscure or do not contain meaningful data or other information.

No one should read into this more than, to some degree, my own noise. Some threads and their posts seem relatively clean while others begin to look like something shot at maximum ISO.

I am all for a free K-1 giveaway, and the intent of keeping an already active forum more active, however, the conditions runs the risk of posts for the sake of posting; that posting is a goal unto itself rather than pertinent, meaningful, content that is not influenced by ulterior motives.
06-10-2018, 04:06 PM - 2 Likes   #318
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alex645 Quote
I am all for a free K-1 giveaway, and the intent of keeping an already active forum more active, however, the conditions runs the risk of posts for the sake of posting; that posting is a goal unto itself rather than pertinent, meaningful, content that is not influenced by ulterior motives.
It's just an exercise to get people (including lurkers) into the routine of posting, isn't it, Alex?

Not a bad thing in itself, that has long term benefits for us all, even if we have to put up for a while with its side-effects, like thread necromancy.
06-10-2018, 04:20 PM - 2 Likes   #319
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
It's just an exercise to get people (including lurkers) into the routine of posting, isn't it, Alex?

Not a bad thing in itself, that has long term benefits for us all, even if we have to put up for a while with its side-effects, like thread necromancy.
Love it! Thread necromancy!!! I think there's a youtube channel waiting for a host....but then we still have magazines with editorial necromancers.

06-10-2018, 04:30 PM   #320
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
I don't have an ignore list. I don't even know how to ad someone on such a list. I just chosed to ignore you because I like to talk with photographers, that's all. Normhead (even if we disagree from time to time) has images posted on this forum, has a Flicker page, has an website. Clackers posted images in this forum. Biz-engineer, Rondec and others also post images on the forum and on other sites. It's nice to know when you talk to someone that you can also look at his images. I learn a lot by looking at images. You have more than 10.000 comments on Pentax forum and not a single photo. I know that it's not an obligation to post images on forums, but we are on a photo forum after all.
My bad, I thought I was on your ignore list; but that's easily corrected. If you must have such a dismissing, arrogant attitude, click on my name then on the 'Ignore' link on the top-right corner of the little popup window. Thank you.
The images stuff is a red herring, given the nature of our discussions they can only serve as an appeal to false authority on one side, and ad hominem on the other. They're irrelevant to the idea of being able to raise sales by an order of magnitude to cope with a 50,000+ euro expense, in 6 months.
Besides, to my knowledge Adam is fine with gearheads being around. You don't get to overrule that.

QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
You have a K1. Why don't you do something in this regard? It would be one investment less for Pentax dealer. And you said that you want to help this brand more than once. You have a chance to do it without money involved. Why don't you find a good/known photographer that wants to see how good Pentax is and why don't you go out with him and give him your camera to shoot with if you think you're not good enough to post images. It's that simple. This way you will also have the opportunity to learn some tips and tricks from an experienced photographer. You or the known photographer can write an article after a month or so and start promoting it in online. See what impact it has. You want to know why I don't like to get involved in discussions with you? Because I'm tired of " there is no silver bulet" , "there is no single action that would improve...", etc. Only doing something you can see if it works or not.
Of course, I wouldn't expect everyone to know about Fred Brooks. The original "No silver bullet" paper is about software, which is why I can understand it so well - but it applies well to other domains. And it really gets you thinking.
A marketing guy (for example), one that has to sell "silver bullets"... he would absolutely hate it.

No surviving business goes randomly spending money, hoping it would work - by the way.

QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Mircea Bezergheanu helped increasing the sales for Olympus in Romania a lot, because he post processed images and because he's organising lots of landscape and wildlife photo tours. When Olympus Romania saw that one single man generates lots of sales, what they did? They started to provide him some gear for people to test. So you see, a single man made lots of people sell their gear and move to Olympus. And that is a fact that no one can't argue with. It would have been enough a K1 with the 3 zoom lenses and a dedicated Pentax dealer to ask Mircea Bezergheanu if he wants to test Pentax for a month or so? We don't know because no one from Pentax contacted him.
1 K-1 and 3 zoom lenses are on a different scale than 10-15 K-1 and a matching set of lenses. I believe it would've failed or even backfired - Bezergheanu gave up on Nikon because Nikon didn't support him "properly" (or something); was there any chance of him being satisfied with Pentax? And the support Olympus is providing him with is on a higher level (or so he claims).
But spending the money is not everything: remember that one of the things he praised Olympus for was it's fast frame rate? That's one of the "easy" things I was talking about before. Or the lenses - the top-notch primes he had from Nikon, the long lenses... IMHO Pentax just doesn't have equipment suitable for him.
That being said, I support the idea of finding a good (but less pretentious) photographer or two to promote the brand.

QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
You have to forgive me, but when some people want to make a point about others who have different opinions, then they come up with this phrase and they put it in the sentance so that it may look like the other people think that Pentax is doomed. It's the best and easiest way to make others jump and "help" the discussion to go in the wrong direction. This phrase it's like a trigger for some Pentaxians who want to " taste some blood".
You might not be aware of this, but I was talking about Andy Westlake - who had a PentaxIsDoomed "opinion" published in Amateur Photographer. This is the thread's subject, actually.
06-11-2018, 12:08 AM - 3 Likes   #321
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
My bad, I thought I was on your ignore list; but that's easily corrected. If you must have such a dismissing, arrogant attitude, click on my name then on the 'Ignore' link on the top-right corner of the little popup window. Thank you.
The images stuff is a red herring, given the nature of our discussions they can only serve as an appeal to false authority on one side, and ad hominem on the other. They're irrelevant to the idea of being able to raise sales by an order of magnitude to cope with a 50,000+ euro expense, in 6 months.
Besides, to my knowledge Adam is fine with gearheads being around. You don't get to overrule that.
Me being arrogant? With you? Why would I be arrogant with you? Photographers talk through images. Saying this to you makes me arrogant in a photography forum? You keep saying that images are irrelevant if you want to raise sales due to heavy processing of the images, etc... Yet, a review of a camera or a lens without any picture would be relevant to anyone? I see a note under the images from reviews who specify that the images had been edited.

I post images like these from below when I want to tell people what kind of images we can take at the photo meetings that I organise from time to time. I use cheap lenses and often cheap cameras in order to make people understand that for certain images you don't need expensive gear and all you need is to take care of how to combine the 3 elements (the subject, the light, the background) for getting a pleasing image. I'm not writting them and describe the scene, the model, etc. Photographers who organise workshops post images in order for people to see what they can photograph at a workshop. And with images they manage to attract participants and also with images they grow up their workshop business. They don't promote the brand, they don't promote certain cameras or lenses.

As I said, I know that posting images is not an obligation, but we can all learn through images more than we learn by writting 10 pages of words.


QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
No surviving business goes randomly spending money, hoping it would work - by the way.
Who said something about spending money randomly? If attracting known photographers by providing them some gear means that this are waisted money... You know why I have lots of requests to organise photo tours? Because:
- I invested in flashes
- I invested in triggers that work with any camera
- I pay the models rather than working with TFCD models that doesn't know how to pose or can give me surprises and don't show up
- I invite always a known photographer that can provide tips and tricks
- I propose themes that attract people; for example, from 10 to 12 Jully I will be in Danube Delta with another 6 photographers shooting nudes and fashion, but we will be in small fishing boats, on watter, in the middle of the lake (people are responding to ideas that are hard to implement due to conditions); They got tired of shooting a model in a studio under the advice of a photographers who set up for them the flashes, the model, etc.

I didn't know if spending money will work, but I wanted to try rather than make planes only on paper. Don't tell me that if I can invest 2-3.000$ in flashes to see if these photo tours worth the effort of organising them, the Pentax dealer can't invest 4000$ to see if they can improve their sales by organising photo tours or give the camera for tests to some known photographers. You (not you in particular) rather move the discussion to Pentax is doomed because of us who try and offer suggestions that you like to interpret in the wrong way just for animating a topic with some inflamatory discussions. I didn't say Pentax is doomed in my entire life. I expressed an opinion or two based on what works on every business company (getting involved in online marketing which is easier than people may think and you don't need tons of money to do some ads and promoting some ambassadors).


QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
1 K-1 and 3 zoom lenses are on a different scale than 10-15 K-1 and a matching set of lenses. I believe it would've failed or even backfired - Bezergheanu gave up on Nikon because Nikon didn't support him "properly" (or something);
Bezergheanu recieved from Olympus just one camera and 3 lenses. After 2 months and one review that made waves even on DPreview forum he recieved another 5 cameras and some lenses so that he can attract easier photographers to Olympus. Why don't you say what Bezergheanu said regarding why he abandoned Nikon? His words were: Nikon didn't offer me a discount for Nikon 105mm f1.4 lens and this got me analise the relationship with them. Now Nikon hired 5 ambassadors that combined don't do what Bezergheanu did for the brand. They lost him over a discount for a lens.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
was there any chance of him being satisfied with Pentax?
If no one from Pentax approached him, how would we know? Olympus made the first move. Now Sony and Fuji tries to steal him from Olympus. I wonder why?!

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
And the support Olympus is providing him with is on a higher level (or so he claims).
But spending the money is not everything: remember that one of the things he praised Olympus for was it's fast frame rate? That's one of the "easy" things I was talking about before. Or the lenses - the top-notch primes he had from Nikon, the long lenses... IMHO Pentax just doesn't have equipment suitable for him.
Yes, they did provided him lots of gear after they saw what he can do with just an Olympus E-M1 Mark II and 4 lenses. If someone will generate with one camera and 4 lenses that many sales, wouldn't you have done the same? Olympus has the frame rate, Pentax has other advantages that he could talk about. You know that he can write even about a Pentax K7 and make it look through his images and through his words that it as a better camera than D7200 or 80D for example.

The same thing did Heye (the military guy) with just a short clip on Youtube in which he risked his gear by putting it under shower and covering it with sand. He made Pentax known all over the world as very well build cameras that you can rely on. Just for this free advertise I would have tried to help him promote Pentax. There are others who post on youtube Pentax cameras under shower, but this guy is credible beying a military guy who takes photographs under very difficult conditions. It would have been nice to read on the internet about a guy who chosed to work with Pentax cameras when he goes to missions due to the build quality of Pentax cameras, due to the excelent image quality, due to the lots of functions and so on.

By the way, why Kenspo is not listed as an ambassador on Pentax website? I see only 4 ambassadors on Pentax website: Kerrick James, Chris Knight, Joey Skibel, Ricardo Serpa.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
That being said, I support the idea of finding a good (but less pretentious) photographer or two to promote the brand.
Let's see it. Let's see how you make some noise in our market. I will be the first to share all the interesting articles/reviews you post with the help of a known photographer in the next 1-2 years. I found a known photographer to come to my photo tours. It's not that hard as you may think. You can involve our Pentax dealer also... Lots of things can be done if you take a break from writting on forums and implement the things that you agree with from these discussions.
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Last edited by Dan Rentea; 06-11-2018 at 01:32 AM.
06-11-2018, 12:18 AM   #322
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QuoteOriginally posted by fsge Quote
28473 now!
Still a significant way to go
we're on target (nearly) - 30% in a third of the month - and there will be a concerted effort to close the gap if we fall behind - have no fear

06-11-2018, 02:22 AM - 1 Like   #323
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Me being arrogant? With you? Why would I be arrogant with you? Photographers talk through images. Saying this to you makes me arrogant in a photography forum? You keep saying that images are irrelevant if you want to raise sales due to heavy processing of the images, etc... Yet, a review of a camera or a lens without any picture would be relevant to anyone? I see a note under the images from reviews who specify that the images had been edited.

I post images like these from below when I want to tell people what kind of images we can take at the photo meetings that I organise from time to time. I use cheap lenses and often cheap cameras in order to make people understand that for certain images you don't need expensive gear and all you need is to take care of how to combine the 3 elements (the subject, the light, the background) for getting a pleasing image. I'm not writting them and describe the scene, the model, etc. Photographers who organise workshops post images in order for people to see what they can photograph at a workshop. And with images they manage to attract participants and also with images they grow up their workshop business. They don't promote the brand, they don't promote certain cameras or lenses.

As I said, I know that posting images is not an obligation, but we can all learn through images more than we learn by writting 10 pages of words.




Who said something about spending money randomly? If attracting known photographers by providing them some gear means that this are waisted money... You know why I have lots of requests to organise photo tours? Because:
- I invested in flashes
- I invested in triggers that work with any camera
- I pay the models rather than working with TFCD models that doesn't know how to pose or can give me surprises and don't show up
- I invite always a known photographer that can provide tips and tricks
- I propose themes that attract people; for example, from 10 to 12 Jully I will be in Danube Delta with another 6 photographers shooting nudes and fashion, but we will be in small fishing boats, on watter, in the middle of the lake (people are responding to ideas that are hard to implement due to conditions); They got tired of shooting a model in a studio under the advice of a photographers who set up for them the flashes, the model, etc.

I didn't know if spending money will work, but I wanted to try rather than make planes only on paper. Don't tell me that if I can invest 2-3.000$ in flashes to see if these photo tours worth the effort of organising them, the Pentax dealer can't invest 4000$ to see if they can improve their sales by organising photo tours or give the camera for tests to some known photographers. You (not you in particular) rather move the discussion to Pentax is doomed because of us who try and offer suggestions that you like to interpret in the wrong way just for animating a topic with some inflamatory discussions. I didn't say Pentax is doomed in my entire life. I expressed an opinion or two based on what works on every business company (getting involved in online marketing which is easier than people may think and you don't need tons of money to do some ads and promoting some ambassadors).




Bezergheanu recieved from Olympus just one camera and 3 lenses. After 2 months and one review that made waves even on DPreview forum he recieved another 5 cameras and some lenses so that he can attract easier photographers to Olympus. Why don't you say what Bezergheanu said regarding why he abandoned Nikon? His words were: Nikon didn't offer me a discount for Nikon 105mm f1.4 lens and this got me analise the relationship with them. Now Nikon hired 5 ambassadors that combined don't do what Bezergheanu did for the brand. They lost him over a discount for a lens.



If no one from Pentax approached him, how would we know? Olympus made the first move. Now Sony and Fuji tries to steal him from Olympus. I wonder why?!



Yes, they did provided him lots of gear after they saw what he can do with just an Olympus E-M1 Mark II and 4 lenses. If someone will generate with one camera and 4 lenses that many sales, wouldn't you have done the same? Olympus has the frame rate, Pentax has other advantages that he could talk about. You know that he can write even about a Pentax K7 and make it look through his images and through his words that it as a better camera than D7200 or 80D for example.

The same thing did Heye (the military guy) with just a short clip on Youtube in which he risked his gear by putting it under shower and covering it with sand. He made Pentax known all over the world as very well build cameras that you can rely on. Just for this free advertise I would have tried to help him promote Pentax. There are others who post on youtube Pentax cameras under shower, but this guy is credible beying a military guy who takes photographs under very difficult conditions. It would have been nice to read on the internet about a guy who chosed to work with Pentax cameras when he goes to missions due to the build quality of Pentax cameras, due to the excelent image quality, due to the lots of functions and so on.

By the way, why Kenspo is not listed as an ambassador on Pentax website? I see only 4 ambassadors on Pentax website: Kerrick James, Chris Knight, Joey Skibel, Ricardo Serpa.



Let's see it. Let's see how you make some noise in our market. I will be the first to share all the interesting articles/reviews you post with the help of a known photographer in the next 1-2 years. I found a known photographer to come to my photo tours. It's not that hard as you may think. You can involve our Pentax dealer also... Lots of things can be done if you take a break from writting on forums and implement the things that you agree with from these discussions.
There is a different page where Kenneth is listed... Kenneth Sporsheim - PENTAX RICOH IMAGING
06-11-2018, 03:40 AM   #324
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
There is a different page where Kenneth is listed... Kenneth Sporsheim - PENTAX RICOH IMAGING
There are more (k-3 here) ambassadors than I had realised - do you know i any others grace our pages here?
06-11-2018, 04:04 AM   #325
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Me being arrogant? With you? Why would I be arrogant with you? Photographers talk through images. Saying this to you makes me arrogant in a photography forum? You keep saying that images are irrelevant if you want to raise sales due to heavy processing of the images, etc... Yet, a review of a camera or a lens without any picture would be relevant to anyone? I see a note under the images from reviews who specify that the images had been edited.
Telling someone that he's not worth discussing with because he's not a photographer is extremely condescending and arrogant. But don't take my word for it, ask a photographer.

QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
You keep saying that images are irrelevant if you want to raise sales due to heavy processing of the images, etc...
No I'm not. What I'm saying is that subtle image quality differences are difficult to sell, unlike obvious stuff like 40 frames per second or 4K video with autofocus. I'm saying how every brand can publish amazing-looking images.

QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
we can all learn through images more than we learn by writting 10 pages of words
Learn about what? Good photographers don't necessarily have good business sense. Would I get better at estimating industry trends just by posting some of my airshow pictures?
And this is the News and Rumors section, not Photo Critique, nor even Photo Technique. If you're asking people to post pictures here, I'm afraid you are lost.

QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Who said something about spending money randomly?
I did. I said "no surviving business goes spending their money randomly". I was making a point.
You said "Only doing something you can see if it works or not." and I agree, ultimately the proof is in the pudding. But that's the last step... as a business, you first make sure your money are well spent. You need a plan.
It's not like I disagree with the idea that one could increase sales with an order of magnitude within 6 months, and a 50,000+ euro investment. I'm not seeing any argument why it would work; I have nothing to disagree with.
And I get this feeling that you don't really have any idea about Pentax' sales in Romania.

QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
If someone will generate with one camera and 4 lenses that many sales, wouldn't you have done the same?
How many sales? I'm not seeing any numbers.
Assuming that Pentax can do "the same" (whatever "the same" means) is a serious logic error. Pentax is not Nikon. Pentax is not Olympus. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Pentax grow, be better and more aggressively represented (not only here); I just don't believe in silver bullets.

QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
By the way, why Kenspo is not listed as an ambassador on Pentax website? I see only 4 ambassadors on Pentax website: Kerrick James, Chris Knight, Joey Skibel, Ricardo Serpa.
Because you're looking at the U.S. website, and Kenspo is from Norway:
Kenneth Sporsheim - PENTAX RICOH IMAGING

QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Let's see it. Let's see how you make some noise in our market.
It's not my job to do it. I don't want to make it into a profession - photography is my hobby and it will stay that way. And... I see no helping hand here, no advice, no offer to put me in contact with people who might be able to help - nothing to make me believe this is any different than the "you're not a photographer" thing.
So don't make it a requirement.

By the way, I postponed the traditional Romanian meeting this year, the reason being... that nothing much happened. On another level, Kenspo talked about how difficult is to convince people about Pentax, when the new lenses are not on the market. Things are not as easy as for other brands.
I really hope asahi man's information is accurate and we'll see more activity in the near future.
06-11-2018, 04:41 AM - 1 Like   #326
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The fascinating thing about these 'doomed' threads is that nobody knows why Ricoh took on the Pentax brand after it was asset stripped by Hoya. It's highly unlikely that they had visions of turning Pentax into a world leader of the camera industry or that they would would play about for a few years and then give up.The simplest answer to me is that owning Pentax has 'status' in Japan and until that fades they will go on producing quality cameras at good prices.
06-11-2018, 05:25 AM   #327
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QuoteOriginally posted by ffking Quote
There are more (k-3 here) ambassadors than I had realised - do you know i any others grace our pages here?
I think Mike Muizebelt has posted here at times (user name Mousehill). Ogun Turkay also has posted here as well. Ogun Turkay has as well. Not sure about the others.
06-11-2018, 05:31 AM   #328
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QuoteOriginally posted by mohb Quote
The fascinating thing about these 'doomed' threads is that nobody knows why Ricoh took on the Pentax brand after it was asset stripped by Hoya.
Is that one of the things we're supposed to find out in September?
06-11-2018, 05:39 AM - 2 Likes   #329
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QuoteOriginally posted by mohb Quote
The fascinating thing about these 'doomed' threads is that nobody knows why Ricoh took on the Pentax brand after it was asset stripped by Hoya. It's highly unlikely that they had visions of turning Pentax into a world leader of the camera industry or that they would would play about for a few years and then give up.The simplest answer to me is that owning Pentax has 'status' in Japan and until that fades they will go on producing quality cameras at good prices.
The CEO of Ricoh, who if memory serves me well had been there since the days of Ricoh SLRs said that it was a personal dream of his to get back into the DSLR business. Ricoh used to make K- mount cameras, now they own K-mount. A case of bucket list closure if you ask me.

Last edited by normhead; 06-11-2018 at 05:46 AM.
06-11-2018, 06:03 AM   #330
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
The CEO of Ricoh, who if memory serves me well had been there since the days of Ricoh SLRs said that it was a personal dream of his to get back into the DSLR business. Ricoh used to make K- mount cameras, now they own K-mount. A case of bucket list closure if you ask me.
I think the price was right and it allows Ricoh to have more diversification in their portfolio. Maybe cameras don't seem a big thing now, but if they can integrate with their copy business it can be a steady money maker for them. Copiers and scanners are in good shape for the moment, but it is helpful if you can be in different areas of the market so as to weather ups and downs one market might experience.

It's why Canon and Sony are in better shape than Nikon, who is pretty much a camera only company.
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