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10-22-2021, 01:34 AM   #1051
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The battle with phones will not be won by having a consumer line up. I was away the wknd with a cohort of friends, all of us middle aged. I know they all have cameras but no one, besides me, had brought one. Everyone used their phone and then we all shared pictures on whatsapp or through google photos later. 10 or 15 years ago there might have been 3 or 4 cameras on such a wknd but not now.

10-22-2021, 01:38 AM - 1 Like   #1052
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
Yep. All understood, Ian. Let me tell you one way that Sony is attracting new entrants, and that is through schools and colleges, by getting their equipment into the media and arts departments. At that stage, they’re aspirational owners, and won’t be real owners until they’ve established themselves in a career, but Sony has planted the seed that they’re the real deal, just like AOC used to in university science labs when I was a student. Plus ca change.
I personally know two people who are with Sony exclusively because the new Tamron f/2.8 zooms are there. In the own words of one of them, "I really want to get good at photography, and the only modern system I can afford is Sony". He shoots the A6400 with a Tamron 17-70/2.8 and the Sony 70-350. Both lenses are very good from the images I've seen. His other option was Fuji but the total cost was fair bit more expensive.

Of course, we all know about older second hand gear being perfectly fine, but the point is that Sony having loads of modern, affordable third party lenses is another reason for their success.

---------- Post added 10-22-21 at 01:56 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Then you have folks like me who have the $2.5k in cash, but - as you point out - prioritise their spending. Yes, I enjoy a bottle of wine now and then... once a week, as it happens. So I could cut that out and save $10 - $15 each week for five years... but a glass or two of wine on a Friday and Saturday evening is, for me, part of enjoying life. Photography is important to me, but it's a hobby - and not one I would enjoy if it were to the exclusion of all other pursuits (what a sad existence that would be ). Plus, I like to remain as liquid as possible. I believe I have enough funds set aside to deal with some (hopefully, most) unexpected eventualities in life, but not enough that I can spend freely without serious consideration. So... I can afford to buy a new camera and lens, but - based on my fairly-cautious approach to life - I don't feel I can justify it. I think that's what a lot of folks really mean when they say they can't afford something.
That's the thing with me - I have very little daily expenses beyond food (hiking, videogames with friends, going for a beer and some food once a week or so aren't *that* expensive, and I don't have to take financial care of a partner, a child or even a pet). But even less than two years ago my parents had to borrow money because of some emergency repairs at my grandma's house (which came right after some emergency repairs at the barn some time before that), so I prioritize having money available for an emergency.

And, while now things are good (very good, even, considering the state of many...), I do come from a family were money was tight until around the time I was born, and it's hard to extricate oneself from the knowledge that it could be tight again. So for me it is hard, mentally, to spend a lot of money on a hobby - I forced myself to get some extra freelancing work to "fit" an used K-1 in the budget despite having theoretically enough money in the bank. It's also why I look at lightly-used gear if it's something that's reliable (so... lenses ). From an entirely selfish point of view, 700€ for two low-serial MIJ FA Limiteds beats 1800€ for two new copies . And they work all the same.
10-22-2021, 02:17 AM - 3 Likes   #1053
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
That's the thing with me - I have very little daily expenses beyond food (hiking, videogames with friends, going for a beer and some food once a week or so aren't *that* expensive, and I don't have to take financial care of a partner, a child or even a pet). But even less than two years ago my parents had to borrow money because of some emergency repairs at my grandma's house (which came right after some emergency repairs at the barn some time before that), so I prioritize having money available for an emergency.

And, while now things are good (very good, even, considering the state of many...), I do come from a family were money was tight until around the time I was born, and it's hard to extricate oneself from the knowledge that it could be tight again. So for me it is hard, mentally, to spend a lot of money on a hobby - I forced myself to get some extra freelancing work to "fit" an used K-1 in the budget despite having theoretically enough money in the bank. It's also why I look at lightly-used gear if it's something that's reliable (so... lenses ). From an entirely selfish point of view, 700€ for two low-serial MIJ FA Limiteds beats 1800€ for two new copies . And they work all the same.
I think you and I probably have a similar outlook.

I could afford the new camera, lens and more - but I don't want to find myself in a position next month, next year, three years time, where I can't afford to do something really important because I already blew the money on what is basically an indulgence. So, yeah... it's all a case of priorities

... and on that note, my £125 Sigma 50mm f/2.8 EX DG Macro should arrive today, and I'm as excited as I would be with a £1,500 lens

Last edited by BigMackCam; 10-22-2021 at 03:21 PM.
10-22-2021, 02:43 AM - 3 Likes   #1054
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
If Ricoh would make new range of lens designs for 4x5 film cameras, with all the modern digital lens improvement, a new modern 4x5 film camera and a film supply and development service, that would be awesome. If I buy that new 1500 euros lens from Ricoh, is it going to give me those 200Mpixels images? No, that's the problem.
Go for broke - get an 8”x10” and get four times the resolution of piddling little 4x5 film.

10-22-2021, 02:45 AM   #1055
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QuoteOriginally posted by StiffLegged Quote
Go for broke - get an 8”x10” and get four times the resolution of piddling little 4x5 film.
Can't beat that. I'll get my coat...
10-22-2021, 02:53 AM - 2 Likes   #1056
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Let's not analyze each others finances. I think it is reasonable to do a budget and figure out what amount of money you can spend on your hobbies (photography could be one of those) per year. That decision is a personal decision.

I do think it is pretty easy to rationalize spending some money on photography when you consider that equipment lasts if you take care of it. I paid 600 dollars for my DA *16-50 and have taken thousands of photos with it over the last 14 years. It felt like a lot of money at the time, particularly with concerns over SDM, but at this point in my life I would rather have the images I captured with it than the 600 dollars back, even with interest.

I guess the thing that I see is not so much that Pentax is abandoning the entry and mid level users, but rather that they are filling in the upper end of glass. We have a lot of sub-500 dollar glass available. We have a decent amount in the 500-1000 dollar range. We are slowly get * lenses for full frame and those of course are going to be over 1000. It isn't that Pentax is going through and raising prices on older lenses or discontinuing them. They are just adding more high end options for those who have the money and are willing to spend it. I'm glad for the options, even if I won't buy all of the top end lenses (I probably won't by a DFA * 35 for instance as I'm reasonably satisfied with my FA 31 limited).
10-22-2021, 03:05 AM - 2 Likes   #1057
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Some others may be able to afford $10 a week, but they don't have $2.5k+ in cash to spend right now .... Finance .... also ends up costing more than the $2.5k borrowed .... I know I do. Given that, if someone doesn't have the $2.5k in cash now, then they're quite right to say they can't afford it
To say it costs more than the amount borrowed is something of an understatement. Borrowing interest is scandalous (I've seen my daughter's finances) especially as savings rates at present are virtually zero while some mainstream money lenders are charging 4-5000% - I don't understand why it is even legal. My mother's adage was that if you have to borrow it, you can't afford it.

QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
I have the money in my account for a DA*16-50/2.8 PLM... for a K-3III too, if I really wanted it. ... Then, of course .... my car is coming up seven years old and the warranty expires next month...... and parts will need replacing at some point
I could buy a K-3iii and new lenses with no trouble too, but ironically it is because of the very reason that I don't buy stuff at the drop of a hat and have therefore not frittered money away. In 30 years I have bought only four new Pentax cameras, and two of those only because of a significant technical upgrade (film -> APS-C and APS-C -> FF) not because I wanted new bling or 25% more megapixels. If it were not for digital I'd still be happily using my LX, albeit with an overhaul.

It is also because I repair things. in fact prefer it to buying. I hate shopping. For example I have a garden truck (standard type) that has broken it's chassis three times in 10 years (bad design in three different places) and each time I repaired it stronger than new - but most people would have just scrapped it. I bought my car at seven years old and it is now 15 and never had a warrantee. I repair and service it using parts from a grey importer, it's never been in a garage for repairs and never failed its MoT. I even buy broken photo kit from Ebay and repair it.

I'm a salesman's nightmare, but at least I bought my main Pentax kit new.

10-22-2021, 03:14 AM - 1 Like   #1058
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Firstly, as you acknowledge, some people genuinely can't afford a new camera and/or lens, and probably more of them since pre-pandemic days, especially with the rising cost of living and the prospect of fuel, energy and food price hikes in coming months, not to mention inflation.
Wait. Imagine you are Ricoh, you see everyone else increasing their prices due to inflation, what do you do? If I'm Ricoh I don't want to be missing out of the inflation trend, I increase the price of my lenses.

---------- Post added 22-10-21 at 12:23 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
but a glass or two of wine on a Friday and Saturday evening is, for me, part of enjoying life. Photography is important to me, but it's a hobby - and not one I would enjoy if it were to the exclusion of all other pursuits (what a sad existence that would be ). Plus, I like to remain as liquid as possible.
Someone pointed out in the lens equivalence thread that a glass of red wine is equivalent to 1h of jogging (not sure about the impact on longevity), you are excused. Given the nature of Pentax customer base, including a bottle or two of Sake with each new limited lens sold could bring Pentax back into the future.
10-22-2021, 03:29 AM - 1 Like   #1059
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QuoteOriginally posted by StiffLegged Quote
Go for broke - get an 8”x10” and get four times the resolution of piddling little 4x5 film.
About six or seven years ago I bought a 4x5 camera. I'd wanted one since the early 1980s.

The first thing I discovered was my tripod wasn't stout enough to support it, so I got a suitable one. Then I decided to use a 120 roll film back to get the feel for the large format processes. I have a roll of film in the back, and twice I've set everything up and made a couple of exposures.

The problem is the time it takes to set up, compose and make exposures.

I just don't have time.

*sigh*
10-22-2021, 03:55 AM - 1 Like   #1060
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Wait. Imagine you are Ricoh, you see everyone else increasing their prices due to inflation, what do you do? If I'm Ricoh I don't want to be missing out of the inflation trend, I increase the price of my lenses.
I'm not complaining about Ricoh's pricing. I hoped I'd made that pretty clear in other posts... Just because the latest products are priced beyond the level I can comfortably justify, I'm no less happy with Pentax as a brand and the gear I already own. I'm sticking with Pentax and want to see it live on for many years; and if this strategy of releasing high-end, higher-priced products - $2K+ cameras, $1,500+ lenses - works for Ricoh, I'm all for it.

I don't think Ricoh has increased prices because everyone else has; I think the latest products would have been expensive anyway, due to all the R&D that went into them and the premium quality of construction. The K-3III is much more than an incremental update of the K-3 / K-3II, and the DA*16-50/2.8 PLM is an entirely new star-quality lens. They are, perhaps, 10 - 20% more expensive than I expected, but if that's what Ricoh needs to charge for profitability based on its forecasted sales volumes, so be it.

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Someone pointed out in the lens equivalence thread that a glass of red wine is equivalent to 1h of jogging (not sure about the impact on longevity), you are excused. Given the nature of Pentax customer base, including a bottle or two of Sake with each new limited lens sold could bring Pentax back into the future.
I don't jog, but these days I do take a brisk five-and-a-half mile walk most mornings, which is an hour-and-a-half of good exercise. I figure that earns me half a bottle of wine on Friday night, and another half on Saturday I'm not a big fan of sake, but I could learn to like it. Your idea has merit...

Last edited by BigMackCam; 10-22-2021 at 04:30 AM.
10-22-2021, 04:29 AM - 1 Like   #1061
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
I don't think Ricoh has increased prices because everyone else has; I think the latest products would have been expensive anyway, due to all the R&D that went into them and the premium quality of construction. The K-3III is much more than an incremental update of the K-3 / K-3II, and the DA*16-50/2.8 PLM is an entirely new star-quality lens. They are, perhaps, 10 - 20% more expensive than I expected, but if that's what Ricoh needs to charge for profitability based on its forecasted sales volumes, so be it.
It's easy to take a guess when companies are overpricing their products: just look at their financials. If they're not posting record profits, they probably aren't.

Indeed, Pentax upped their game - and they had no chance, otherwise they'd slip into oblivion.
Lens wise, in the last years everyone's making better lenses; Pentax had no choice but to do the same, while covering the gap left by years of neglect, and while selling at very low volumes.
That can't be done while being much cheaper than everyone else. That can be done, barely, by being at about the same price levels as your main competitors.

It's not like everything they're doing works for me either. The D FA* 85mm f/1.4? That's a thoroughly impressive lens, but I skipped getting it... sorry, it's simply too much (in every possible way). Maybe a few years later.
I'm still happy Pentax managed to make such a lens.
10-22-2021, 04:31 AM - 1 Like   #1062
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
I don't jog, but these days I do take a brisk five-and-a-half mile walk most mornings, which is an hour-and-a-half of good exercise. I figure that earns me half a bottle of wine on Friday night, and another half on Saturday I'm not a big fan of sake, but I could learn to like it. Your idea has merit...
My morning walk is something like half a kilometer in 1 1/2 hours... because my Beagle has to sniff everything
What does that earn me?
10-22-2021, 04:43 AM - 1 Like   #1063
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
My morning walk is something like half a kilometer in 1 1/2 hours... because my Beagle has to sniff everything
What does that earn me?
My admiration for looking after your little doggy, and his (or her) undying affection
10-22-2021, 05:09 AM - 1 Like   #1064
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
My admiration for looking after your little doggy, and his (or her) undying affection
It's not that hard once you give up on your mental sanity
10-22-2021, 05:11 AM   #1065
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lord Lucan Quote
My mother's adage was that if you have to borrow it, you can't afford it.
I think the worldwide economy would go into a depression if most people followed your mother's advice. In the US the average length of a new car loan is 72 months, with 70% being five years (60 months) or more. That enables average new car prices to creep north of $30k. If new car loans weren't a thing, or were capped at 2-3 years I'd bet the average new car price would fall under $20k and most people would keep a car 15+ years.

And the housing market would collapse in a way that makes 2008 look like a little blip. I'd guess that 90%+ of US home sales are with a 30-year mortgage.
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