Pentax D FA* 50mm f1.4 and Tokina Opera 50mm f1.4

**ffking** · 06-20-2018, 02:28 AM - **1 Like**

This isn't really relevant, but I don't want to start a new thread and it refers back the the article @RonHendriks1966 linked to (post #56) about leaders and followers inthe camera business:-

I was watching the Northrups discuss Canon's possible mirrorless strategy - actually quite an interesting discussion - and Tony quoted the long-standing CEO of Canon as saying that there was a price to innovation - coming to market with your own version a few years later was much cheaper. It's obvious in one sense, but the implication is that the payback for getting a jump on the competitors doesn't always cover that cost.

Incidentally, in the same YouTube video, there's a graph 5 minutes in that shoes camera sales over the last few decades, and what it appears to show is that the fall in camera sales of the last few years has been to the the level at which they were before digital came along - in other words most of the recent spike and subsequent decline was people changing from film to digital, and now the market has settled down again to pre-digital levels where people are replacing bodies every 4 or 5 years - that's what it looks like to me, anyway.

Last edited by ffking; 06-20-2018 at 03:26 AM.

ogl · 06-20-2018, 03:07 AM - **1 Like**

ogl · 06-20-2018, 03:07 AM - **1 Like**

**ffking** · 06-20-2018, 03:25 AM

Great to see them pushing it

rawr · 06-20-2018, 03:29 AM

Maybe it is because the 6D is a modest sized camera, but that Tokina 50mm sure looks hefty ...

Mistral75 · 06-20-2018, 03:49 AM

(Yokohama, 5 and 6 June 2018)

Source of the pictures posted above by ogl: DigitalCamera.jp

thibs · 06-20-2018, 04:09 AM - **1 Like**

Well, it's a modern high end 50mm prime.
No way it will look like an FA.
And still, as.the very little we could get as a a glimpse it looks like it provides gentle rendering and not agressive one (Sigma Art in my mind here) and yet, sharpnas required at f/2.

Fine by me. And more.

**Douglas_of_Sweden** · 06-20-2018, 08:43 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by BROO

Thanks for that good resource for those who are interested.

I guess you will have to correct the Pentax forums review?

"The SMC Pentax-DA 10-17mm F3.5-4.5 Fish-Eye ED [IF], which was released in early 2006, is the first and only Pentax fish-eye lens designed exclusively for APS-C format Pentax K-mount cameras. This is one of the lenses that Pentax developed in conjunction with Tokina, who currently offer the same lens for Canon and Nikon."
Just one thing. Is it unusual for a lens to be patented some time after its introduction or is the PF review incorrect on the introduction date too?

Not my job. But it surprices me that the forum has such a sloppy error. The facts are well known. Pentax and Tokina had a deal then where several Pentax lens patents were licenced to Tokina, and Tokina licensed one lens design to Pentax. It upset some people as unfair. But obviously the net cash-flow went from Tokina to Pentax, even though the sum was never purlic. It should be noted that the research section at Tokina is small, much smaller than at Pentax prior to the Hoya purge, and still smaller than the optical R&D at Ricoh today. Both Tamron and Sigma has substantially larger research teams than Tokina, so Tokina is dependent on this sort of deals.
As for the dates, it is the date when the patent was finally accepted. Production often start when the patent is still pending. That's a terrible slow process.

---------- Post added 06-21-18 at 05:53 AM ----------

Originally posted by Kunzite

Without the collaboration with Tokina, this lens might've been a different - lesser - product.

Originally posted by thibs

It was licensed to Tokina.
Patents are clear enough I believe.
sTill, without the TOkina collaboration this lens might not have been developed, that's the real meaning of this sentence IMO.

I don't think so. Pentax was quite eager to repeat the success of the F 17-28mm fisheye zoom in APS-C format. And it worked, the DA 10-17mm has sold very well.

It was interresting to observe what happened with the 2nd hand price of the F 17-28mm fisheye zoom when the K-1 came. Since a lot of them where sold back in film-days, but the lens where nearly useless (or pointless) on APS-C, it was valued very low. Prices jumped up quite a lot. It works very well on the K-1.

Mistral75 · 09-20-2018, 02:53 PM - **2 Likes**

The Tokina opera 50mm f/1.4 FF was just announced and its optical formula and autofocus motor are indeed the same as those of the HD Pentax-D FA★ 50mm f/1.4 SDM AW.

Tokina - opera 50mm F1.4 FF

Reed · 09-21-2018, 01:29 AM

Originally posted by Mistral75

The Tokina opera 50mm f/1.4 FF was just announced and its optical formula and autofocus motor are indeed the same as those of the HD Pentax-D FA★ 50mm f/1.4 SDM AW.

Tokina - opera 50mm F1.4 FF

And priced almost 250$ less than Pentax DFA*50 in B&H preorder.

MMVIII · 09-21-2018, 01:42 AM

Originally posted by Reed

And priced almost 250$ less than Pentax DFA*50 in B&H preorder.

No surprise. A dedicated system lens has to fulfil higher standards in regard to compatibility and functionality on the systems cameras. A third party will always have to compete on price.

Reed · 09-21-2018, 01:47 AM

Originally posted by MMVIII

No surprise. A dedicated system lens has to fulfil higher standards in regard to compatibility and functionality on the systems cameras. A third party will always have to compete on price.

Yup, and ofc there is choice of other OEM and 3P products in that segment. Still that is quite a drop, at this point its a 20% less than OEM.

beholder3 · 09-21-2018, 02:12 AM

Photographers around the world do not (never did) value 3rd party glass like Tamron, Sigma, Tokina.

That is why 1st party glass of the exact same quality, features, specs typically is valued at a premium of about +40-50% higher than the 3rd party clones. When looking at modern Tamron/Sigma/Tokina lenses it is quite obvious that they can not go demand more than this 2/3 of the real camera maker lenses.

They have to be cheap or wouldn't sell.

Consequently I bet the current wishful thinking price of the Tokina rebadged lens will drop quickly to around $800 street price, then it would be balanced with the Pentax price.

**ffking** · 09-21-2018, 02:13 AM

Originally posted by Reed

Yup, and ofc there is choice of other OEM and 3P products in that segment. Still that is quite a drop, at this point its a 20% less than OEM.

Also, of course, it has to compete with the Sigma Art as well as native Nikon and Canon glass - it should be a better lens, but Canikon users might need convincing, and if Tokina want to shift units in the face of all the MILC spending, they need to be competitive, I'd have thought.

Mistral75 · 09-21-2018, 02:39 AM

Originally posted by Reed

And priced almost 250$ less than Pentax DFA*50 in B&H preorder.

Indeed:

- US RRP = $949 vs. $1,199 i.e. -20.9%
- Japanese RRP = ¥138,000 vs ¥170,00 i.e. -18.8%
- Kitamura: ¥114,210 vs ¥133,650 i.e. -14.5%
- Bic Camera, Yodobashi: ¥126,900 vs ¥148,500 i.e. -14.5%.

There is a logical premium on the OEM branded product.

06-20-2018, 03:49 AM	#81
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,527	(Yokohama, 5 and 6 June 2018) Source of the pictures posted above by *ogl: DigitalCamera.jp Last edited by Mistral75; 06-20-2018 at 04:32 AM.*

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06-20-2018, 02:28 AM - 1 Like	#76
ffking Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: Old South Wales Posts: 6,038	This isn't really relevant, but I don't want to start a new thread and it refers back the the article @RonHendriks1966 linked to (post #56) about leaders and followers inthe camera business:- I was watching the Northrups discuss Canon's possible mirrorless strategy - actually quite an interesting discussion - and Tony quoted the long-standing CEO of Canon as saying that there was a price to innovation - coming to market with your own version a few years later was much cheaper. It's obvious in one sense, but the implication is that the payback for getting a jump on the competitors doesn't always cover that cost. Incidentally, in the same YouTube video, there's a graph 5 minutes in that shoes camera sales over the last few decades, and what it appears to show is that the fall in camera sales of the last few years has been to the the level at which they were before digital came along - in other words most of the recent spike and subsequent decline was people changing from film to digital, and now the market has settled down again to pre-digital levels where people are replacing bodies every 4 or 5 years - that's what it looks like to me, anyway. Last edited by ffking; 06-20-2018 at 03:26 AM.

06-20-2018, 03:07 AM - 1 Like	#77
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382

06-20-2018, 03:07 AM - 1 Like	#78
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382

06-20-2018, 03:25 AM	#79
ffking Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: Old South Wales Posts: 6,038	Great to see them pushing it

06-20-2018, 03:29 AM	#80
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Maybe it is because the 6D is a modest sized camera, but that Tokina 50mm sure looks hefty ...

06-20-2018, 04:09 AM - 1 Like	#82
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Well, it's a modern high end 50mm prime. No way it will look like an FA. And still, as.the very little we could get as a a glimpse it looks like it provides gentle rendering and not agressive one (Sigma Art in my mind here) and yet, sharpnas required at f/2. Fine by me. And more.

06-20-2018, 08:43 PM - 1 Like	#83
Douglas_of_Sweden Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Stockholm Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,374	Originally posted by BROO Thanks for that good resource for those who are interested. I guess you will have to correct the Pentax forums review? "The SMC Pentax-DA 10-17mm F3.5-4.5 Fish-Eye ED [IF], which was released in early 2006, is the first and only Pentax fish-eye lens designed exclusively for APS-C format Pentax K-mount cameras. This is one of the lenses that Pentax developed in conjunction with Tokina, who currently offer the same lens for Canon and Nikon." Just one thing. Is it unusual for a lens to be patented some time after its introduction or is the PF review incorrect on the introduction date too? Not my job. But it surprices me that the forum has such a sloppy error. The facts are well known. Pentax and Tokina had a deal then where several Pentax lens patents were licenced to Tokina, and Tokina licensed one lens design to Pentax. It upset some people as unfair. But obviously the net cash-flow went from Tokina to Pentax, even though the sum was never purlic. It should be noted that the research section at Tokina is small, much smaller than at Pentax prior to the Hoya purge, and still smaller than the optical R&D at Ricoh today. Both Tamron and Sigma has substantially larger research teams than Tokina, so Tokina is dependent on this sort of deals. As for the dates, it is the date when the patent was finally accepted. Production often start when the patent is still pending. That's a terrible slow process. ---------- Post added 06-21-18 at 05:53 AM ---------- Originally posted by Kunzite Without the collaboration with Tokina, this lens might've been a different - lesser - product. Originally posted by thibs It was licensed to Tokina. Patents are clear enough I believe. sTill, without the TOkina collaboration this lens might not have been developed, that's the real meaning of this sentence IMO. I don't think so. Pentax was quite eager to repeat the success of the F 17-28mm fisheye zoom in APS-C format. And it worked, the DA 10-17mm has sold very well. It was interresting to observe what happened with the 2nd hand price of the F 17-28mm fisheye zoom when the K-1 came. Since a lot of them where sold back in film-days, but the lens where nearly useless (or pointless) on APS-C, it was valued very low. Prices jumped up quite a lot. It works very well on the K-1.

09-20-2018, 02:53 PM - 2 Likes	#84
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,527	The Tokina opera 50mm f/1.4 FF was just announced and its optical formula and autofocus motor are indeed the same as those of the HD Pentax-D FA★ 50mm f/1.4 SDM AW. Tokina - opera 50mm F1.4 FF

09-21-2018, 01:29 AM	#85
Reed Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Warsaw Photos: Gallery Posts: 638	Originally posted by Mistral75 The Tokina opera 50mm f/1.4 FF was just announced and its optical formula and autofocus motor are indeed the same as those of the HD Pentax-D FA★ 50mm f/1.4 SDM AW. Tokina - opera 50mm F1.4 FF And priced almost 250$ less than Pentax DFA*50 in B&H preorder.

09-21-2018, 01:42 AM	#86
MMVIII Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: EU Posts: 1,121	Originally posted by Reed And priced almost 250$ less than Pentax DFA*50 in B&H preorder. No surprise. A dedicated system lens has to fulfil higher standards in regard to compatibility and functionality on the systems cameras. A third party will always have to compete on price.

09-21-2018, 01:47 AM	#87
Reed Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Warsaw Photos: Gallery Posts: 638	Originally posted by MMVIII No surprise. A dedicated system lens has to fulfil higher standards in regard to compatibility and functionality on the systems cameras. A third party will always have to compete on price. Yup, and ofc there is choice of other OEM and 3P products in that segment. Still that is quite a drop, at this point its a 20% less than OEM.

09-21-2018, 02:12 AM	#88
beholder3 Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,112	Photographers around the world do not (never did) value 3rd party glass like Tamron, Sigma, Tokina. That is why 1st party glass of the exact same quality, features, specs typically is valued at a premium of about +40-50% higher than the 3rd party clones. When looking at modern Tamron/Sigma/Tokina lenses it is quite obvious that they can not go demand more than this 2/3 of the real camera maker lenses. They have to be cheap or wouldn't sell. Consequently I bet the current wishful thinking price of the Tokina rebadged lens will drop quickly to around $800 street price, then it would be balanced with the Pentax price.

09-21-2018, 02:13 AM	#89
ffking Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: Old South Wales Posts: 6,038	Originally posted by Reed Yup, and ofc there is choice of other OEM and 3P products in that segment. Still that is quite a drop, at this point its a 20% less than OEM. Also, of course, it has to compete with the Sigma Art as well as native Nikon and Canon glass - it should be a better lens, but Canikon users might need convincing, and if Tokina want to shift units in the face of all the MILC spending, they need to be competitive, I'd have thought.

09-21-2018, 02:39 AM	#90
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,527	Originally posted by Reed And priced almost 250$ less than Pentax DFA*50 in B&H preorder. Indeed: - US RRP = $949 vs. $1,199 i.e. -20.9% - Japanese RRP = ¥138,000 vs ¥170,00 i.e. -18.8% - Kitamura: ¥114,210 vs ¥133,650 i.e. -14.5% - Bic Camera, Yodobashi: ¥126,900 vs ¥148,500 i.e. -14.5%. There is a logical premium on the OEM branded product.