DA*11-18/2.8 delay to 2019

thibs · 07-09-2018, 07:50 AM

The 70-200/4 is either a Pentax-Ricoh optical design or Tokina optical design. In either case brand specific barrel/motors etc.

ogl · 07-09-2018, 08:52 AM

I'm absolutely indifferent to the author of optical design. I use lens to make photos, not to make a fetish of manufacturer, type of drive, coatings, WR and e.t.c.
My fetish is sharpness and bokeh.

Kunzite · 07-09-2018, 09:22 AM

Fetish?

We'd care much less about who designed this and that lens, if some people wouldn't constantly throw "Pentax/Ricoh is unable to design lenses as good as Sigma Arts" BS in our faces.

ogl · 07-09-2018, 10:04 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Fetish?

We'd care much less about who designed this and that lens, if some people wouldn't constantly throw "Pentax/Ricoh is unable to design lenses as good as Sigma Arts" BS in our faces.

Do you care about it? I don't care. Are you manager of Ricoh - I don't understand you...

Last edited by Unregistered User 8; 07-09-2018 at 10:31 PM. Reason: Removed inflammatory cortoon.

Kunzite · 07-09-2018, 11:31 AM - **3 Likes**

ogl, just put me on ignore and go to bed, OK?

robjmitchell · 07-09-2018, 03:21 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by UncleVanya

FWIW, the DFA 50 is a Pentax design that is being used by Tokina as far as we understand things. Not that different from the DA* 50-135 design which was licensed out also. Frankly the only controversy in relabeling is pricing. It is hard to swallow paying full brand price for what others pay less for, unless there are enough differences in build, coatings, WR, lens correction in camera etc.

Its also possible that the full price of the DFA*50 would have been $1500 if the sharing arrangement with tokina wasn’t done. Its clear the lenses share the same parts such as motor, aperture, glass blanks and maybe even the front housing. Ricoh most likely gets some/most of these things made by specialist 3rd party manufacturers and would get a better price for bigger volumes. Tooling for such small batch productions is such a big cost that I would even think pentax would potentially do the grinding and polishing before shipping the elements to Tokina for coating and assembly. I doubt Ricoh would be doing the optical assembly based on how slow production is, although if the Tokina comes out priced higher than the pentax after the demand has been filled then they just may well be doing that. There was some idle speculation that Ricoh had invested in Tokina a one point.

**monochrome** · 07-09-2018, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by clickclick

But if third party/Tamron, wouldn't we have it already?

Yes. 4,5.

**monochrome** · 07-09-2018, 03:45 PM

Originally posted by robjmitchell

Its also possible that the full price of the DFA*50 would have been $1500 if the sharing arrangement with tokina wasn’t done. Its clear the lenses share the same parts such as motor, aperture, glass blanks and maybe even the front housing. Ricoh most likely gets some/most of these things made by specialist 3rd party manufacturers and would get a better price for bigger volumes. Tooling for such small batch productions is such a big cost that I would even think pentax would potentially do the grinding and polishing before shipping the elements to Tokina for coating and assembly. I doubt Ricoh would be doing the optical assembly based on how slow production is, although if the Tokina comes out priced higher than the pentax after the demand has been filled then they just may well be doing that. There was some idle speculation that Ricoh had invested in Tokina a one point.

Of course Pentax is doing the optical assembly for the Pentax lenses. Every single Pentax lens is assembled by Pentax, individually evaluated for image quality and bench tested for numerical values. Individual failed lenses are sent back to assembly for fine tuning. They explicitly make those very statements in their literature and on the D FA*60/1.4 Special Site.

I’d be surprised if Pentax is assembling the Tokina lenses. I don’t believe Tokina sets quite that high a standard for the Opera line. More likely their license agreement states Pentax gets to release it’s version first, and Tokina has to wait for a specified period.

The Pentax release delay was caused because Pentax had a consistent production error they had to correct to get to a low failure rate at production speed. This was stated and discussed at length.

robjmitchell · 07-09-2018, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

Of course Pentax is doing the optical assembly for the Pentax lenses. Every single Pentax lens is assembled by Pentax, individually evaluated for image quality and bench tested for numerical values. Individual failed lenses are sent back to assembly for fine tuning. They explicitly make those very statements in their literature and on the D FA*60/1.4 Special Site.

I’d be surprised if Pentax is assembling the Tokina lenses. I don’t believe Tokina sets quite that high a standard for the Opera line. More likely their license agreement states Pentax gets to release it’s version first, and Tokina has to wait for a specified period.

The Pentax release delay was caused because Pentax had a consistent production error they had to correct to get to a low failure rate at production speed. This was stated and discussed at length.

I was referring to ricoh doing any of the optical assembly of the tokina lenses. As noted the assembly is very time consuming, hence why the delay. So far the Tokina lens appears to share the optical design as well as the ring sdm and electronic aperture. There is obviously potential for further cost reduction if pentax assembled most or the Tokina lens as well, but that level of connection would be new and not anticipated.

ogl · 07-09-2018, 09:17 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Kunzite

ogl, just put me on ignore and go to bed, OK?

No any sense to ignore of somebody.

For many people forum's talks are the method of psychotherapy, for somebody - the realization of inner complexes.

And there is serious phenomenon when person associates their own life with any brand.
They think that the product of any brand is the part of their life.

Unregistered User 8 · 07-09-2018, 10:40 PM - **4 Likes**

Hi folks, some of the posts are becoming inflammatory and personal, which as we all know, is against the forum rules here. I have edited the posts this time, but any further bickering will result in harsher action being taken. Thanks.

**Belnan** · 07-12-2018, 03:43 PM

Maybe they delayed the 11-18 because they wanted to update the 16-50 and 50-135 first.

Im just trying to be positive, however my gut doesnt think this is true. But you never know.

Gianclaudio · 07-12-2018, 05:50 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Belnan

Maybe they delayed the 11-18 because they wanted to update the 16-50 and 50-135 first.

Im just trying to be positive, however my gut doesnt think this is true. But you never know.

By just updating the 16-50 to current 50-135 standards, I'll buy it in a heartbeat and sell my 15, 20-40 and 35mm limiteds

A 16-50 matching the 50-135, plus that lens and the new 50mm 1.4 is all the lenses I'll ever need. Less is more.

**UncleVanya** · 07-12-2018, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by Gianclaudio

By just updating the 16-50 to current 50-135 standards, I'll buy it in a heartbeat and sell my 15, 20-40 and 35mm limiteds

A 16-50 matching the 50-135, plus that lens and the new 50mm 1.4 is all the lenses I'll ever need. Less is more.

An interesting sentiment. For me even if the DA* 16-50 was stunning the DA 15 would likely still have a spot in my kit. the DA 20-40 Limited too is so much lighter that I am unclear if that would come out of the kit but it would be a candidate. The 35mm 2.8 macro? Or the 35mm f2.4? The macro would be hard to give up I would think.

But yes improved DA* 16-50 would not be a bad choice to replace those with if that was your desire. But I've never found a zoom that shoots into bright lights as well as the DA 15 does.

SSGGeezer · 07-12-2018, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by Kunzite

ogl, I'm not sure if you're aware that you're arguing yourself - quite aggressively. And now you're getting personal - why?

By the way, if you wanted a private conversation with UncleVanya, a public forum is not the best place to have it

Based on current * and Limited lens coatings versus Sigma coatings, unless Tokina has extremely good coatings, the Pentax will probably have noticeably better color rendering. I get good images from my Sigma lenses but my * lenses crush them in my eyes. I cannot wait for the 11-18. I probably do not really need it but I certainly want it.

07-09-2018, 03:45 PM	#173
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by robjmitchell Its also possible that the full price of the DFA50 would have been $1500 if the sharing arrangement with tokina wasn’t done. Its clear the lenses share the same parts such as motor, aperture, glass blanks and maybe even the front housing. Ricoh most likely gets some/most of these things made by specialist 3rd party manufacturers and would get a better price for bigger volumes. Tooling for such small batch productions is such a big cost that I would even think pentax would potentially do the grinding and polishing before shipping the elements to Tokina for coating and assembly. I doubt Ricoh would be doing the optical assembly based on how slow production is, although if the Tokina comes out priced higher than the pentax after the demand has been filled then they just may well be doing that. There was some idle speculation that Ricoh had invested in Tokina a one point. Of course Pentax is doing the optical assembly for the Pentax lenses. Every single Pentax lens is assembled by Pentax, individually evaluated for image quality and bench tested for numerical values. Individual failed lenses are sent back to assembly for fine tuning. They explicitly make those very statements in their literature and on the D FA60/1.4 Special Site. I’d be surprised if Pentax is assembling the Tokina lenses. I don’t believe Tokina sets quite that high a standard for the Opera line. More likely their license agreement states Pentax gets to release it’s version first, and Tokina has to wait for a specified period. The Pentax release delay was caused because Pentax had a consistent production error they had to correct to get to a low failure rate at production speed. This was stated and discussed at length. Last edited by monochrome; 07-09-2018 at 03:56 PM.

07-09-2018, 09:17 PM - 1 Like	#175
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by Kunzite ogl, just put me on ignore and go to bed, OK? No any sense to ignore of somebody. For many people forum's talks are the method of psychotherapy, for somebody - the realization of inner complexes. And there is serious phenomenon when person associates their own life with any brand. They think that the product of any brand is the part of their life. Last edited by ogl; 07-10-2018 at 07:26 AM. Reason: Removed inflammatory text.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Jun Hirakawa retiring in 2019	beholder3	Photographic Industry and Professionals	10	03-24-2020 11:58 AM
For Sale - Expired: Xmas in July! - DA L 18-50 WR RE, SMC DA 21, Tamron 18-200, SMC DA 15, DA 18-250	EarlVonTapia	Sold Items	9	12-13-2017 08:07 PM
People Historical reenactment 1918, Nizhny Novgorod 11.11.2017	Chetverovod	Post Your Photos!	7	11-12-2017 07:56 AM
Photokina to be held Yearly and in May from 2019.	D1N0	Travel, Events, and Groups	1	05-29-2017 12:36 AM
Happy 11.11.11 11:11:11	m8o	General Talk	10	11-12-2011 08:17 PM

07-09-2018, 07:50 AM	#166
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	The 70-200/4 is either a Pentax-Ricoh optical design or Tokina optical design. In either case brand specific barrel/motors etc.

07-09-2018, 08:52 AM	#167
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	I'm absolutely indifferent to the author of optical design. I use lens to make photos, not to make a fetish of manufacturer, type of drive, coatings, WR and e.t.c. My fetish is sharpness and bokeh.

07-09-2018, 09:22 AM	#168
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Fetish? We'd care much less about who designed this and that lens, if some people wouldn't constantly throw "Pentax/Ricoh is unable to design lenses as good as Sigma Arts" BS in our faces.

07-09-2018, 10:04 AM	#169
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by Kunzite Fetish? We'd care much less about who designed this and that lens, if some people wouldn't constantly throw "Pentax/Ricoh is unable to design lenses as good as Sigma Arts" BS in our faces. Do you care about it? I don't care. Are you manager of Ricoh - I don't understand you... Last edited by Unregistered User 8; 07-09-2018 at 10:31 PM. Reason: Removed inflammatory cortoon.

07-09-2018, 11:31 AM - 3 Likes	#170
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	ogl, just put me on ignore and go to bed, OK?

07-09-2018, 03:21 PM - 1 Like	#171
robjmitchell Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Melbourne Aus Posts: 1,776	Originally posted by UncleVanya FWIW, the DFA 50 is a Pentax design that is being used by Tokina as far as we understand things. Not that different from the DA* 50-135 design which was licensed out also. Frankly the only controversy in relabeling is pricing. It is hard to swallow paying full brand price for what others pay less for, unless there are enough differences in build, coatings, WR, lens correction in camera etc. Its also possible that the full price of the DFA*50 would have been $1500 if the sharing arrangement with tokina wasn’t done. Its clear the lenses share the same parts such as motor, aperture, glass blanks and maybe even the front housing. Ricoh most likely gets some/most of these things made by specialist 3rd party manufacturers and would get a better price for bigger volumes. Tooling for such small batch productions is such a big cost that I would even think pentax would potentially do the grinding and polishing before shipping the elements to Tokina for coating and assembly. I doubt Ricoh would be doing the optical assembly based on how slow production is, although if the Tokina comes out priced higher than the pentax after the demand has been filled then they just may well be doing that. There was some idle speculation that Ricoh had invested in Tokina a one point.

07-09-2018, 03:38 PM	#172
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by clickclick But if third party/Tamron, wouldn't we have it already? Yes. 4,5.

07-09-2018, 08:37 PM	#174
robjmitchell Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Melbourne Aus Posts: 1,776	Originally posted by monochrome Of course Pentax is doing the optical assembly for the Pentax lenses. Every single Pentax lens is assembled by Pentax, individually evaluated for image quality and bench tested for numerical values. Individual failed lenses are sent back to assembly for fine tuning. They explicitly make those very statements in their literature and on the D FA*60/1.4 Special Site. I’d be surprised if Pentax is assembling the Tokina lenses. I don’t believe Tokina sets quite that high a standard for the Opera line. More likely their license agreement states Pentax gets to release it’s version first, and Tokina has to wait for a specified period. The Pentax release delay was caused because Pentax had a consistent production error they had to correct to get to a low failure rate at production speed. This was stated and discussed at length. I was referring to ricoh doing any of the optical assembly of the tokina lenses. As noted the assembly is very time consuming, hence why the delay. So far the Tokina lens appears to share the optical design as well as the ring sdm and electronic aperture. There is obviously potential for further cost reduction if pentax assembled most or the Tokina lens as well, but that level of connection would be new and not anticipated.

07-09-2018, 10:40 PM - 4 Likes	#176
Unregistered User 8 Closed Account Join Date: Mar 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,694	Hi folks, some of the posts are becoming inflammatory and personal, which as we all know, is against the forum rules here. I have edited the posts this time, but any further bickering will result in harsher action being taken. Thanks.

07-12-2018, 03:43 PM	#177
Belnan Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Nova Scotia Photos: Albums Posts: 1,090	Maybe they delayed the 11-18 because they wanted to update the 16-50 and 50-135 first. Im just trying to be positive, however my gut doesnt think this is true. But you never know.

07-12-2018, 05:50 PM - 1 Like	#178
Gianclaudio Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: Hannover Photos: Gallery Posts: 163	Originally posted by Belnan Maybe they delayed the 11-18 because they wanted to update the 16-50 and 50-135 first. Im just trying to be positive, however my gut doesnt think this is true. But you never know. By just updating the 16-50 to current 50-135 standards, I'll buy it in a heartbeat and sell my 15, 20-40 and 35mm limiteds A 16-50 matching the 50-135, plus that lens and the new 50mm 1.4 is all the lenses I'll ever need. Less is more.

07-12-2018, 08:09 PM	#179
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,403	Originally posted by Gianclaudio By just updating the 16-50 to current 50-135 standards, I'll buy it in a heartbeat and sell my 15, 20-40 and 35mm limiteds A 16-50 matching the 50-135, plus that lens and the new 50mm 1.4 is all the lenses I'll ever need. Less is more. An interesting sentiment. For me even if the DA* 16-50 was stunning the DA 15 would likely still have a spot in my kit. the DA 20-40 Limited too is so much lighter that I am unclear if that would come out of the kit but it would be a candidate. The 35mm 2.8 macro? Or the 35mm f2.4? The macro would be hard to give up I would think. But yes improved DA* 16-50 would not be a bad choice to replace those with if that was your desire. But I've never found a zoom that shoots into bright lights as well as the DA 15 does.

07-12-2018, 08:23 PM	#180
SSGGeezer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: Indiana, U.S. Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,845	Originally posted by Kunzite ogl, I'm not sure if you're aware that you're arguing yourself - quite aggressively. And now you're getting personal - why? By the way, if you wanted a private conversation with UncleVanya, a public forum is not the best place to have it Based on current * and Limited lens coatings versus Sigma coatings, unless Tokina has extremely good coatings, the Pentax will probably have noticeably better color rendering. I get good images from my Sigma lenses but my * lenses crush them in my eyes. I cannot wait for the 11-18. I probably do not really need it but I certainly want it.