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09-19-2008, 08:34 PM   #211
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QuoteOriginally posted by Douglas_of_Sweden Quote
I sure noticed that. If this is to be the end of the unnecessary "D", we have to make up new speculative names on the presumed top model.
It'll just make it that much more 'fun' to search for the product on the internet, since the KM comes up when you search for K-m.

09-19-2008, 10:32 PM   #212
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QuoteOriginally posted by claude21 Quote
It was widely known that k10d have banding at high iso. I still doesn't understand why it is so pronounced when the d80 (sharing the same sensor technology or the same actually, not sure) don't have such problems. I'm a bit sad that Pentax forgot us k10d owners by not releasing any firmware upgrade. Or it's hardware related I don't know. Whatever, I don't trust them anymore.
Then move. The beauty of today's market is that you have choices. Pentax failed you, so try your hand with Nikon. No need to box yourself in with a brand that doesn't suit your needs.
09-19-2008, 10:33 PM   #213
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QuoteOriginally posted by Douglas_of_Sweden Quote
If Pentax make a K-m with the whole body in Pentax-red with the Pentax brand in black, for sure my wife will want one, so they will sell us two instead of one, would be a good move.
I'm guessing your wife's tempted by the G1?
09-19-2008, 10:34 PM   #214
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QuoteOriginally posted by philmorley Quote
we need skins!!!!

I could change the colour of my k20d depending on my mood for the day, nice royal blue or perhaps solid gold when I want to look flash, camo for when going for wildlife.... cool!

could add like ringtones for when you've taken a pic! or when you're about to -> say 'cheese' could be automated and replaced with whatever you like.

hmm, I think I need to get out and take some photos
I think Camera Armor does different colors, though I haven't seen one made for the lower-end Pentax bodies (as usual).

Would silicone wrap-arounds work for you, if ever?

09-19-2008, 10:41 PM   #215
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QuoteOriginally posted by cousinsane Quote
When you say "a lot of pros still shoot film"
Are you talking about medium format and large format?
Frankly, I'd be very surprised if a lot of pros are still shooting 35mm films
Depends on where you live in. In third-world countries like where I live (and consequently where Pentax bodies are assembled), there are still a couple who use film, though they're more into those grade-school class pictures and graduations than weddings.

A lot of them are advanced in age, and probably never learned to use a computer well enough to use Photoshop (due to a combination of age and meager income).

But what they have, though, are spectacular old photos taken of places and people of ages past. I bought a print last night, actually. I'll post it over the photos section later.

Sorry for the OT.
09-20-2008, 12:26 AM   #216
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QuoteOriginally posted by claude21 Quote
It was widely known that k10d have banding at high iso. I still doesn't understand why it is so pronounced when the d80 (sharing the same sensor technology or the same actually, not sure) don't have such problems. I'm a bit sad that Pentax forgot us k10d owners by not releasing any firmware upgrade. Or it's hardware related I don't know. Whatever, I don't trust them anymore.
As Gordon B. Good stated in one of the older posts regarding the issue
"Banding in this case is "Long Exposure Dark Vertical Banding" (Vertical when in landscape orientation), and this has been entirely fixed with firmware version"
So what we have is Pattern Noise, which is less of a problem. (But still a problem)



And he did the K10D ISO 1600 DNG qualitative analysis, also mentioning the Nikon D80 :
K10D ISO 1600 DNG qualitative analysis... [Page 1]: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

"I know that many are getting tired of the endless discussions on the noise in K10D images, but perhaps some real facts gleaned from the ISO 1600 Candle.dng image so kindly posted here by Steve77R may be useful.
This image contains some very dark background at close to a zero level out of 4095 (yes it was a 12 bit per photosite image, not 16), so I was able to obtain a standard deviation of the photosite readout noise at this level.
It had a standard deviation of about 16 bits (out of 4095 full scale) after compensating for the fact that some of the noise was clipped to zero and was therefor non-Gaussian to that extent. Understand that this black level noise is total readout noise including sensor dark current noise, amplifier noise, and uncertainty (digital noise) of the Analog to Digital Convertor (ADC), and that noise at higher levels would have additional shot noise generated by the randomness of the photons striking the individual photosite areas. The raw images showed no signs at all of pre-processing NR filters and appeared to be fairly "pure" data straight from the CCD with the only compensations made for dark current offsets and scale factor.
This is over twice as good at the readout noise of those DNG images obtained from some pre-production models of the Pentax K10D and the equivalent Samsung GX-10. This means that everything that is always said about pre-production models is true - one shouldn't judge any camera by the results from these :-)
A standard deviation of 16/4095 means that with careful conversion, especially with respect to tone curve and sharpening, one should be able to produce images with a scene Dynamic Range (DR) of up to about 8 f-stops at ISO 1600 with little or no NR and a little more DR than this if one used a moderate NR and was willing to lose a little low contrast fine detail.
To put it into perspective as compared to competing 10 MP CCD cameras, this is about a half again better than the Sony Alpha 100 even considering that Sony's ISO sensitivities are quite a bit higher than stated and about the same better than the Nikon D80 considering that the D80 applies quite a bit of NR to obtain it's results. As compared to the CMOS 10 MP sensor of the Canon XTi 400D, readout noise is about twice as high but shot noise is less due to CCD sensors using their areas more efficiently than CMOS ones. Thus the black noise will be higher than for the Canon model as is shown in Phil's testing comparing any of Canon's CMOS sensors as compared to their CCD counterparts, but grey noise will be about the same or lower with identical processing as to NR. Thus this camera is a very formidable competitor and well worth waiting for."




And on the problem that the Nikon D200 had with banding and VPN, with the same sensor :
“No, the Nikon D200 doesn't use the same sensor as the K10D in that it has a four channel readout rather than just two for the sensor used for the Nikon D80, the Sony A100, and the K10D. This means for the D200 there is one channel reading red, one channel reading blue, and two channels reading green in a alternating vertical pattern. Nikon's problem was that the two green channel ADC's weren't balanced in their response and/or may have had some unbalanced cross response with other channels or circuitry. The Pentax K10D couldn't really have that kind of problem in that one ADC reads ***all*** of the green photosites with the other reading all of the red and blue photosites, so everything stays balanced.”

Last edited by Jonson PL; 09-20-2008 at 02:00 AM.
09-20-2008, 12:39 AM   #217
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QuoteOriginally posted by claude21 Quote
It was widely known that k10d have banding at high iso. I still doesn't understand why it is so pronounced when the d80 (sharing the same sensor technology or the same actually, not sure) don't have such problems. I'm a bit sad that Pentax forgot us k10d owners by not releasing any firmware upgrade. Or it's hardware related I don't know. Whatever, I don't trust them anymore.
On the topic of firmware releases, I must say that I’m fairly satisfied. I found them annoying to install, and I’m quite happy with the ones that I got.
I don’t see why I should need a whole bunch of new firmwares. My K10 is functioning very well as it is. I often shoot Iso 1250, and when nailing the exposure, I can get some very fine looking images. (But I do plan on getting some faster glass, so can get photos in even more darkness).

Of cause I would also like a K20, for better AF-C performance. But I plan on one day getting a second DSLR, so then the K10 can act as back-up, or with different lens set-up.
I don’t mind paying 1.800 – 2.000 $ for a mini D2Xs equivalent.



Regarding PhotoKina, the K-M looks fairly interesting for a entry-level. If it is sealed, it might be a camera to have in the everyday bag, as a light-weight kit.
With the latest polls, how users would like to see sealing in their cameras, the K-M might just hit it home, being the only entry cam to incorporate it. (Now they just need some better marketing, so the consumers actually know it )




I’m hoping for a DA* 400/4, in the Super-Tele department.
But a ringflash, teleconverter, and the 15/4 limited pancake, is sweet.


The reason the K10 might have had more problems than the Nikon D80, is that at native level, it could boost the signal far beyond what most of the competition could. (See the various posts by Gordon).
On this topic he also states :
“The main (unstated) reason that Pentax likely dumped the 22 bit NuCORE Analog Front End (AFE) is that the design help accentuate Vertical Pattern Noise (VPN) where we can be fairly certain that the new 14 bit design helps reduce it.”
22-bit conversion dispensed with, at what cost? [Page 3]: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review


Should the D80 have less problem with Banding and VPN, it could also be that it came after the D200, which had horrific problems with these sort of things. And the company handled it very poorly, in the words of the Nikon guru Thom Hogan, etc.

Last edited by Jonson PL; 09-20-2008 at 01:58 AM.
09-20-2008, 05:33 AM   #218
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mr. The Guy Quote
Seriously, film is irrelevant. FF is irrelevant. APS-C has maybe 5, 10 years tops. Film is in a box labelled film, bell-bottom jeans, 8-tracks and hippie idealism. You seriously think Pentax cares about a guy who wants to buy an old film camera and is introducing a lens to satisfy him? You seriously think Pentax/Hoya cares if you have a bunch of old lenses and will develop a FF camera? No. How many clues do you need that they don't care one whit about FF? They will not go out and say, "We have no interest in FF" because they still sell some old FA lenses (what does the F stand for? Oh, ya, FILM) and their the production lines have been capitalized and are very profitable. They want to sell you new stuff from their NEW factories. If you want a lens for your old camera, go to eBay, not a "Pentax News and Rumours" thread and speculate about compatibility with ancient technology. What do you think D in DA stands for?
There. Good enough for ya? Your turn to justify why Pentax would care about developing a lens for an antiquated format that nobody buys anymore. Their new bodies work with old lenses. No one else does that to the same extent. Be happy with that. And don't try to justify film with the fact you have old lenses. Think. Business is about money. Pentax is a business. Pentax's business has always been about affordable and practical value. Production of any new lens is going to exclusively be for a digital camera. They can't compete with all the FF'ers with old lenses who will jump (hopefully) ship and dump their lenses on eBay because they don't understand that FF is not a panacea. A new lens for film, vs. tons of old film lense on eBay. Ya, The board would fire anybodies ass so fast if they suggested something like that it would make their head spin. (Swear word here.)
I await a logical reply that's based on practical business reality why film has any relevance at all. And, if you choose to argue that it does, specify what percentage of the market cares enough to pay for it. Also, specify what percentage of that market Pentax will get and how much technical support will be required to support that old technology. Also, specify definitively how many more 'keepers' an amateur photographer is going to get with this old technology and calculate how much more that will cost him per picture. As a bonus question, answer how many people who look at that photo will care. Hint: it's 2008.
way to show your intelligence.

once again you make yourself look like an ass by making stupid unfounded assumptions. good for you.:ugh:

QuoteQuote:
Seriously, film is irrelevant.
anyone Tell ILFORD, Kodak & FujiFilm this? I'm sure they'd like to know.

QuoteQuote:
FF is irrelevant. APS-C has maybe 5, 10 years tops.
if FF is irrelevant, and APS-C only has 5-10, what then do you propose oh smart one that we will be using? what IS relevant?

I am not defending film or specifically the 24x36mm 135 format, at what point did I give such a notion? I shoot film yes, and its not even close to being dead regardless of what the market share for film is. I also shoot digital, but you chose to ignore that. in fact I shoot them side by side when Im on the streets, thus revealing my need for a lens that can work with cameras of both mediums.

the only reason I asked was because I wanted a lens that was compatible with both the PZ-1p I am looking to purchase, AS WELL AS my K110D and the new KM I am seriously considering purchasing. whether the lens is new or old, AF or MF is irrelevant to me. I just want a lens that I can use on both digital and film with no compromises and no worries of compatibility. I was thinking this new DA lens just might fit that bill... yet you somehow come to the conclusion that I am just a guy with:
QuoteQuote:
Film in a box labeled film
who wears:
QuoteQuote:
bell-bottom jeans
listens to:
QuoteQuote:
8-tracks
and has:
QuoteQuote:
hippie idealism.
and you know all of this without ever having met me or even having exchanged words on this forum prior to this thread!

QuoteQuote:
I await a logical reply that's based on practical business reality why film has any relevance at all. And, if you choose to argue that it does, specify what percentage of the market cares enough to pay for it. Also, specify what percentage of that market Pentax will get and how much technical support will be required to support that old technology. Also, specify definitively how many more 'keepers' an amateur photographer is going to get with this old technology and calculate how much more that will cost him per picture. As a bonus question, answer how many people who look at that photo will care. Hint: it's 2008.
I am not going to argue any bit of this because I never made any hint that this was my argument. since you like to pop off and be a smartass, make stupid assumptions about people and then push them to argue about things that were never even implied much less mentioned I will leave you to your 'argument'.

good day.

09-20-2008, 06:06 AM   #219
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mr. The Guy Quote
Seriously, film is .......(compressed ranting)...... a bonus question, answer how many people who look at that photo will care. Hint: it's 2008.

I'm sorry to have to tell you Mr.... but I think it is you who went far outside the topic of this thread. If you want to start a "I hate film" or "film is dead thread", do that somewhere else. The decline of film (not death, people still make paint despite that the film-camera a 100 years ago was predicted to be the end of all artistic painting...it didn't even kill portrait-painting, don't think digital will kill film either) in favor of digital and the fact that Pentax are a business is hardly news or rumor so it does not belong here. The subject here is Pentax new offerings on photokina, and a member who are into film has as much right to wonder how a new lens work with film, as someone into macro has the right to wonder about the new ring flash, or someone into pancakes has the right to wonder how the new body will look with a pancake on etc. etc.
09-20-2008, 06:09 AM   #220
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"Just out of curiosity, how do you get those figures? A simple WxLxH isn't very accurate, because these cameras are not perfect rectangles. To get an accurate volume, it seems you'd either have to do the water-displacement method, or have a 3d computer model you can evaluate."


Do you think the weather sealing is good enough for the water-displacement method???? I wouldn't bet on it, but if you try it, please let us know how it works out.
09-20-2008, 07:14 AM   #221
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A K200D can be had on Amazon.com for $550...

So this camera might be had on Amazon.com for less than $500? Either one of those is sounding pretty good to me pretty fast here!!
09-20-2008, 07:15 AM   #222
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GX-20 uses 22-bit ADC

QuoteOriginally posted by Jonson PL Quote
ďThe main (unstated) reason that Pentax likely dumped the 22 bit NuCORE Analog Front End (AFE) is that the design help accentuate Vertical Pattern Noise (VPN) where we can be fairly certain that the new 14 bit design helps reduce it.Ē
Samsung GX-20 uses 22-bit ADC, as officially stated by Samsung.
09-20-2008, 07:19 AM   #223
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QuoteOriginally posted by cateto Quote
Has anybody kept a copy of the full specs leaked at Amazon.uk?

I copypasted them to my blog for reference, but for some weird reason, the page was not properly updated and I have no copy of them. I added some parts posted before in this thread, but would like to get the whole list if some of you got it. Thanks by advance!
Product Features

* Built for the tough everyday photography
* 10.2 Megapixels resolution CCD
* ISO100-3200
* 3.5fps Continuous Shooting
* Reliable dust prevention, detection and removal system against dust on the sensor
* PENTAX "Shake Reduction" integrated into the camera body is usable with any Pentax lens
* Help function
* picture modes and automatic functions set the camera easily for each photograph situation
* 2.7" LCD
* Supplied with: DA L 18-55mm and 50-200mm zoom lens

Technical Details

CCD
10.75 Megapixels ‚€“ total
10.2 Megapixels ‚€“ effective
23.5x15.7mm Interline Interlace CCD with primary colour filter
Colour depth: 3 x 12 Bit in RAW, 3 x 8 Bit in JPEG (internal 3 x 22 bit)
Resolution:
- JPEG: (JPEG Baseline in quality steps of Optimal, Better, Good)
10 MP (3,872 x 2,592), 6 MP (3,008 x 2,000), 2 MP (1,824 x 1,216)
- RAW: 10 MP (3,872 x 2,592)
Sensitivity: Automatic, Manual selectable (ISO 100, 200, 400, 800, 1,600,3,200)
Lens
PENTAX KAF2 bayonet
Compatible with PENTAX KAF2-, KAF- and KA- lens mounts. Support for KAF2 Power Zoom functions
(K-mount lenses ‚€“ with adapters ‚€“ M42 and medium format lenses are mechanically compatible. Due to the high resolution of camera and lack of electronic contacts on the lenses no general statement can be made regarding full compatibility of functions.)
Viewfinder
Built-in, non-interchangeable Pentamirror finder
Viewing area 96% with finder magnification of 0.85x (with 50mm f/1.4 lens at infinity, -1m‚€“1)
Bright non-interchangeable ‚€œNatural Bright II‚€� focusing screen
Viewfinder indications below image area
Dioptre correction -2.5 dpt. ‚€“ +1.5 dpt.
Monitor
2.7‚€� low-temperature polysilicon TFT Monitor with 230,000 dots, brightness adjustment and wide viewing angle (approx. 160¬į)
Image previewing with image preview switch (stop down button)
Image view after recording: Single image, double image, Histogram, recording data and Hot Spot Warning, 16x enlargement, Thumbnail index (4, 9 or 16), slide show, image rotation
Preview
Depth-of-field preview button for focus depth preview, digital preview
Image Formats
RAW (PEF, DNG), RAW + JPEG
JPEG (Exif 2.21), DCF
JPEG compression: JPEG Baseline in quality steps of Optimal, Better, Good
Memory
SD Card, SDHC Card
Focus
Autofocus system: TTL Phase Matching with 5 focussing points (SAFOX) with indication in finder
Operational range: (EV 1 ‚€“ EV 19)
AF Single with focus lock or continuous AF (as a function of the exposure program)
Focussing point selectable between automatic or manual choice, spot focussing
AF-Assist with built-in flash
Metering
16 segment TTL open aperture metering coupled with AF and lens information, switchable between Multi segment, Centre weighted and Spot metering.
Operational range: EV 1 ‚€“ EV 21
Electronically controlled vertical-run focal plane shutter
Shutter speeds: Automatic: 1/4,000 ‚€“ 30sec. (stepless), Manual: 1/4,000 ‚€“ 30sec. (in 0.5 EV steps) and Bulb
Flash sync: 1/180sec.
Green Mode, Programmed automatic (Hyperprogram), Sensitivity Priority, Aperture Priority, Shutter Priority, ISO Automatic, Manual, long exposure
Picture Modes (automatic or manual): Portrait, Landscape, Macro, Sport, Night portrait, Flash Off
Scene Modes: Night scene, Surf & Snow, Food, Sunset, Kids, Pets, Candle light, Museum
Exposure compensation: +/- 2EV (1/3 or 1/2 steps)
Auto bracketing: +/-0.5 EV, +/-1.0 EV, +/-1.5 EV in 0.5 EV steps, or +/-0.3 EV, +/-0.7 EV, +/-1.0 EV, in 0.3 EV steps
Exposure memory button
Flash
Built-in P-TTL automatic flash with automatic operation in poor lighting conditions
Manual on / manual off
Preflash for reduction of the ‚€œRed Eye‚€� effect
Flash compensation (¬Ī2 EV)
GN 13 at ISO 100
Hotshoe on camera top for use of system flashes
High-Speed Wireless Synchronisation with appropriate PENTAX flashes
Coverage 28mm (equivalent in 35mm film format)
Power requirements
4x AA batteries (Lithium, Alkaline, Ni-MH)
Battery capacity: approx. 1,650 images or approx. 1000 images (50% with flash) or approx. 750 min. playback
AC adapter (optionally available)
Connections
USB 2.0 (High Speed)
AV (compatible with NTSC and PAL)
AC adapter (optionally available adapter)
Recording parameters
White Balance: Automatic or manual. Daylight, Shade, Cloudy, Tungsten, Neon (W, N, D), Flash, manual balance, 3 selectable settings for Kelvin and Mired Value with fine adjust
Digital filters: BW, Sepia, Colour (18 options), Soft filter and Slim Filter, HDR (3 options)
Drive Modes: Single, Series (Hi/Low): 2.8fps. to 4 images in JPEG (Hi), 1.1fps to capacity of memory card (Low). 4 images in RAW (DNG). Auto Bracketing, Self-timer with 2sec. delay (mirror up lock) and 12sec. delay, IR Remote Control, series.
Special features
PENTAX developed opto/mechanical ‚€œShake Reduction‚€� (integrated in camera body). Adds approx. 4 stops to hand-held shots (for long exposures a tripod should be used).
3 step ‚€œDust Removal‚€� system:
1. Special coating of Low Pass Filter,
2. Vibration system to remove dust,
3. Adhesive strip to capture dust
‚€œDust Alert‚€�: remaining persistent dust on the sensor is clearly located and the position is indicated on the monitor
Compatible with ultrasonic lenses
Camera internal file designation switchable between standard files or date
Extended exposure functions via eight Scenes Mode programs
Switchable between digital preview on the monitor or optical depth-of-field preview in viewfinder
23 individually adaptable camera functions
Metal chassis with fibre-reinforced plastic housing
Weather-proofed body construction with 60 seals protecting against dust and spray
World time for 72 cities in 28 time zones
Menu languages: English, French, German, Danish, Swedish, Finnish, Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Polish, Czech, Hungarian, Turkish, Russian, Korean, Chinese, Thai, Japanese
Print Functions
PictBridge, DPOF (Digital Print Order Form), PRINT Image Matching III
System requirements
Integrated USB connector
PC: Windows XP, Windows Vista
- CPU: Pentium IV or newer
- Memory: minimum 512MB
- Free hard drive space: 1GB or more
- Monitor resolution: 1,280 x 1,024 or more
Mac OS X 10.2 or higher
- CPU: POWER PC G5 or newer
- Memory: minimum 512MB
- Free hard drive space: 1GB or more
- Monitor resolution: 1,280 x 1,024 or more
Software
PENTAX PHOTO Browser 3/PENTAX PHOTO Laboratory 3 with integrated RAW converter
LENS 1 - 18-55mm DAL zoom Lens
Lens mount - PENTAX KAF-Bayonet
Angle of view - 76 ‚€“ 29¬į
Construction - 11 elements / 8 groups
Aperture control - Automatic
Smallest aperture - 22 ‚€“ 38
Metering - TTL open aperture Metering
Minimum focusing distance - 0.25m ‚€“ ‚ˆž
Magnification - approx. 1:2.9 (0.34x)
Filter size - 52mm
LENS 2 - 50-200mm DAL zoom lens
Lens mount - PENTAX KAF-Bayonet
Angle of view ‚€“ 31.5¬į to 8.1¬į
Construction - 11 elements / 10 groups
Aperture control ‚€“ Automatic
Smallest aperture ‚€“ 22-32
Metering - TTL open aperture Metering
Minimum focusing distance ‚€“ 1.1m ‚€“ ‚ˆž
Magnification - approx. 1:4.2 (0.24x)
Filter size - 52mm
09-20-2008, 07:33 AM   #224
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it's mixed with K200D from Amazon.
09-20-2008, 07:52 AM   #225
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Is the K-m really weather-sealed?
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