Kenspo moves on

reh321 · 11-04-2018, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by kooks

I don't know how the circuitry was made, they might have to change a lot of circuits, or they might just have to do some "minor" tweaks, that is something that I dont know.. but we can't deny that is a very known and puntual issue that had to be addressed in order to make the camera more competitive in the actual market, I bet that Ricoh engineers know how to do it and how to resolve it. My main point is that if they would give us the same K1 but just without the buffer issue and Im sure that we would have a totally different story about Pentax K1, IMO it would be a "fresh air" until they make a new model.

The difference between the K-1 and the 5Div is 4.4 fps vs 7 fps. I'm not convinced that is a simple hardware or software issue - they may have to make major changes. Do you actually know it is a simple change??

BROO · 11-04-2018, 08:04 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by reh321

The difference between the K-1 and the 5Div is 4.4 fps vs 7 fps

The thing is the K-1 is a landscape camera. It doesn't need a large buffer or high fps. I am pretty sure that some of the profits from it's sales are being directed into R@D to bring a FF camera to market that is more suitable for general photographic purposes including weddings and events such as the ones Kenspo was photographing professionally (metal rock band performances or whatever). I am confident that we will see a FF camera that is a significant step forward in the medium to near future.

Winder · 11-04-2018, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by Larrymc

Not many "average" Pentax enthusiasts can afford a $10,000 camera!

For the life of me, I can't understand the reasoning of people who push for a Med Format camera first over an APS-C DSLR. Seems to me the "tech" from an APS-C high spec DSLR could trickle up to a Med Format DSLR. I just don't see how a low volume camera like a Med Format DSLR could be more profitable than an APS-C DSLR based on units sold.

Mostly shoots with a 645z.

Chris Knight Photography
Dramatic Portraiture - RGG EDU
Ricoh Imaging Ambassadors

Nobody is pushing for it first, the 645 platform is pretty old at this point. If Ricoh wants to attract talented photographers, they need the right equipment. I can remember with it seemed like the Pentax 67II was dominating the high-end magazine and fashion world.

kooks · 11-04-2018, 09:35 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by reh321

The difference between the K-1 and the 5Div is 4.4 fps vs 7 fps. I'm not convinced that is a simple hardware or software issue - they may have to make major changes. Do you actually know it is a simple change??

Im not talking about FPS.. FPS at 4.5 is ok.. the issue with the K1 is not that.. the issue is that the buffer fills too fast, and once it's filled the camera locks and it takes too long to clear.. in order to address that they need a faster circuitry with USH II or (and i'm not sure about this) change the temporary memory so it can hold more data meanwhile the camera writes to the SD cards.. that is what a buffer is, a temporary holder... FPS at 4.5 is ok, there is no big complain about that.. that is why the fix could (only the engineers might know in fact) be an "easy" fix.. Let's suppose that the camera works as a highway and the camera have to move data from point A (the sensor) to point B (SD card), once you shoot in burst and the buffer (street) gets lots of data (cars) you get stock in traffic until point B starts to clear.. what about if you make the bigger parking lot (buffer) in the middie of the road so cars can wait for their turn with out stoping point A to keep working, that could be a way to address the issue.. the other way that is more complex is to build the entire highway bigger so everything will move faster, but that means changing all the circuitry and software... But, im not a camera engineer so I can't tell you if that is or is not possible, im just giving my point of view about the issue.

reh321 · 11-04-2018, 09:50 PM

Originally posted by kooks

Im not talking about FPS.. FPS at 4.5 is ok.. the issue with the K1 is not that.. the issue is that the buffer fills too fast, and once it's filled the camera locks and it takes too long to clear.. in order to address that they need a faster circuitry with USH II or (and i'm not sure about this) change the temporary memory so it can hold more data meanwhile the camera writes to the SD cards.. that is what a buffer is, a temporary holder... FPS at 4.5 is ok, there is no big complain about that.. that is why the fix could (only the engineers might know in fact) be an "easy" fix.. Let's suppose that the camera works as a highway and the camera have to move data from point A (the sensor) to point B (SD card), once you shoot in burst and the buffer (street) gets lots of data (cars) you get stock in traffic until point B starts to clear.. what about if you make the bigger parking lot (buffer) in the middie of the road so cars can wait for their turn with out stoping point A to keep working, that could be a way to address the issue.. the other way that is more complex is to build the entire highway bigger so everything will move faster, but that means changing all the circuitry and software... But, im not a camera engineer so I can't tell you if that is or is not possible, im just giving my point of view about the issue.

I know what a buffer is - I'm a retired software engineer - so you could have skipped the explanation of buffer management, if it was there for me, since I have written software to do it and taught others to do so. I'm just not convinced that filling the buffer is the central difference between the K-1 and the 5Div - I would need to hear that from the people like Kenspo who have left Pentax because of it. My pov is that emptying the buffer faster would probably require a better processor, and that most likely would be a major change, requiring time and adding cost to the product.

kenspo · 11-04-2018, 11:44 PM

Originally posted by reh321

I'm just not convinced that filling the buffer is the central difference between the K-1 and the 5Div - I would need to hear that from the people like Kenspo who have left Pentax because of it.

It wasn't the main reason, but it was a part of it. K-1II was even worse then first K-1

Kunzite · 11-05-2018, 12:49 AM

Originally posted by reh321

What makes you think that the "buffer issue" is "simple" - that it could be easily solved?

It isn't simple at all - as I said earlier, the Milbeaut processor only supports 1GB RAM in a dual channel configuration, and it integrates the SD and USB controllers.

Indeed, fixing either the buffer size and card writing speed (which I agree are the most serious limitations) would require a new processor. In other words, a new model - not just a mid-life update.
And if you do that, why not update the sensor, the AF system...

kenspo · 11-05-2018, 01:10 AM - **3 Likes**

With a bit better buffer and maybe AF(I could live with the AF) and maybe slightly more fps, Pentax would be up there as a serious choice amongst pros too (Is now in certain areas).

I really want them to succeed. I like the users, the files, the brand + +

Kunzite · 11-05-2018, 01:17 AM

Right.
I'm explaining why they didn't do it for the K-1 II upgrade; I'm far from saying I wouldn't want - and pay for - it in a new model.

normhead · 11-05-2018, 05:53 AM

All the buffer memory is built in to the processor? Hopefully the long delay is waiting for a new processor then, realizing they can't do any better than what they have.

D1N0 · 11-05-2018, 06:43 AM

The successor to the current prime processor was already announced in Januari 2017 (Image Processor - Milbeaut® Archives | Socionext America). But it was mainly aimed at action cams. I am not sure other manufacturers are using it. If so it would be in the Nikon D5/500/7500 but the first two came out before socionext announced it. So maybe Ricoh doesn't have a successor for the current prime and that may be why we haven't been seeing up to date hardware and they have been focussing in improving the prime III/IV (which I still think are just the same processor). Ricoh didn't use the Milbeaut in the Theta 4k. They used a qualcomm. Currently Pentax uses this processor. M-7M Series MB86S22AA | Image Processors | Socionext US This is a newer version: MB86S27 | Multipurpose Image Processor | Socionext US can do 4k 30p Still cortex-a5. The newest socionext for 360 action cams is cortex-a7.

Kunzite · 11-05-2018, 06:50 AM - **1 Like**

@normhear:
No, it's not build into the processor - however the processor incorporates the memory controller.
I've read in a datasheet a while ago - the M-7M supported up to 1GB RAM in a dual channel configuration mode (which is what they're using, looking at the K-1's mainboard).

normhead · 11-05-2018, 07:04 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

@normhear:
No, it's not build into the processor - however the processor incorporates the memory controller.
I've read in a datasheet a while ago - the M-7M supported up to 1GB RAM in a dual channel configuration mode (which is what they're using, looking at the K-1's mainboard).

Thanks for that.

Winder · 11-05-2018, 08:21 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by D1N0

The successor to the current prime processor was already announced in Januari 2017 (Image Processor - Milbeaut® Archives | Socionext America). But it was mainly aimed at action cams. I am not sure other manufacturers are using it. If so it would be in the Nikon D5/500/7500 but the first two came out before socionext announced it. So maybe Ricoh doesn't have a successor for the current prime and that may be why we haven't been seeing up to date hardware and they have been focussing in improving the prime III/IV (which I still think are just the same processor). Ricoh didn't use the Milbeaut in the Theta 4k. They used a qualcomm. Currently Pentax uses this processor. M-7M Series MB86S22AA | Image Processors | Socionext US This is a newer version: MB86S27 | Multipurpose Image Processor | Socionext US can do 4k 30p Still cortex-a5. The newest socionext for 360 action cams is cortex-a7.

Which is why the rumors of Samsung providing sensors and image processors to Ricoh is so interesting. The Samsung hardware is much better than what is available from Socionext. Other hardware from other manufacturers has been available for years. Ricoh just chooses to keep using the rather dated Milbeaut hardware.

Ricoh needs a partner. Just like the Panasonic/Leica/Sigma deal or M4/3 with Panasonic & Olympus. Samsung has the technology and the manufacturing capacity (Ricoh does not). The people at Ricoh know how to make excellent cameras and they understand photographers (Samsung does not.) They could really use each other.

thibs · 11-05-2018, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by Larrymc

Not many "average" Pentax enthusiasts can afford a $10,000 camera!

For the life of me, I can't understand the reasoning of people who push for a Med Format camera first over an APS-C DSLR. Seems to me the "tech" from an APS-C high spec DSLR could trickle up to a Med Format DSLR. I just don't see how a low volume camera like a Med Format DSLR could be more profitable than an APS-C DSLR based on units sold.

Well, they sit on 645 lenses inventory and lenses DO make money.
The camera is just the tool to trigger the lens sales.

11-04-2018, 09:50 PM	#260
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,177	Originally posted by kooks Im not talking about FPS.. FPS at 4.5 is ok.. the issue with the K1 is not that.. the issue is that the buffer fills too fast, and once it's filled the camera locks and it takes too long to clear.. in order to address that they need a faster circuitry with USH II or (and i'm not sure about this) change the temporary memory so it can hold more data meanwhile the camera writes to the SD cards.. that is what a buffer is, a temporary holder... FPS at 4.5 is ok, there is no big complain about that.. that is why the fix could (only the engineers might know in fact) be an "easy" fix.. Let's suppose that the camera works as a highway and the camera have to move data from point A (the sensor) to point B (SD card), once you shoot in burst and the buffer (street) gets lots of data (cars) you get stock in traffic until point B starts to clear.. what about if you make the bigger parking lot (buffer) in the middie of the road so cars can wait for their turn with out stoping point A to keep working, that could be a way to address the issue.. the other way that is more complex is to build the entire highway bigger so everything will move faster, but that means changing all the circuitry and software... But, im not a camera engineer so I can't tell you if that is or is not possible, im just giving my point of view about the issue. I know what a buffer is - I'm a retired software engineer - so you could have skipped the explanation of buffer management, if it was there for me, since I have written software to do it and taught others to do so. I'm just not convinced that filling the buffer is the central difference between the K-1 and the 5Div - I would need to hear that from the people like Kenspo who have left Pentax because of it. My pov is that emptying the buffer faster would probably require a better processor, and that most likely would be a major change, requiring time and adding cost to the product. Last edited by reh321; 11-04-2018 at 09:58 PM.

11-05-2018, 06:50 AM - 1 Like	#267
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	@normhear: No, it's not build into the processor - however the processor incorporates the memory controller. I've read in a datasheet a while ago - the M-7M supported up to 1GB RAM in a dual channel configuration mode (which is what they're using, looking at the K-1's mainboard). Last edited by Kunzite; 11-05-2018 at 06:56 AM.

11-05-2018, 08:21 AM - 2 Likes	#269
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by D1N0 The successor to the current prime processor was already announced in Januari 2017 (Image Processor - Milbeaut® Archives \| Socionext America). But it was mainly aimed at action cams. I am not sure other manufacturers are using it. If so it would be in the Nikon D5/500/7500 but the first two came out before socionext announced it. So maybe Ricoh doesn't have a successor for the current prime and that may be why we haven't been seeing up to date hardware and they have been focussing in improving the prime III/IV (which I still think are just the same processor). Ricoh didn't use the Milbeaut in the Theta 4k. They used a qualcomm. Currently Pentax uses this processor. M-7M Series MB86S22AA \| Image Processors \| Socionext US This is a newer version: MB86S27 \| Multipurpose Image Processor \| Socionext US can do 4k 30p Still cortex-a5. The newest socionext for 360 action cams is cortex-a7. Which is why the rumors of Samsung providing sensors and image processors to Ricoh is so interesting. The Samsung hardware is much better than what is available from Socionext. Other hardware from other manufacturers has been available for years. Ricoh just chooses to keep using the rather dated Milbeaut hardware. Ricoh needs a partner. Just like the Panasonic/Leica/Sigma deal or M4/3 with Panasonic & Olympus. Samsung has the technology and the manufacturing capacity (Ricoh does not). The people at Ricoh know how to make excellent cameras and they understand photographers (Samsung does not.) They could really use each other. Last edited by Winder; 11-05-2018 at 08:39 AM.

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11-04-2018, 07:41 PM	#256
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,177	Originally posted by kooks I don't know how the circuitry was made, they might have to change a lot of circuits, or they might just have to do some "minor" tweaks, that is something that I dont know.. but we can't deny that is a very known and puntual issue that had to be addressed in order to make the camera more competitive in the actual market, I bet that Ricoh engineers know how to do it and how to resolve it. My main point is that if they would give us the same K1 but just without the buffer issue and Im sure that we would have a totally different story about Pentax K1, IMO it would be a "fresh air" until they make a new model. The difference between the K-1 and the 5Div is 4.4 fps vs 7 fps. I'm not convinced that is a simple hardware or software issue - they may have to make major changes. Do you actually know it is a simple change??

11-04-2018, 08:04 PM - 1 Like	#257
BROO Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 655	Originally posted by reh321 The difference between the K-1 and the 5Div is 4.4 fps vs 7 fps The thing is the K-1 is a landscape camera. It doesn't need a large buffer or high fps. I am pretty sure that some of the profits from it's sales are being directed into R@D to bring a FF camera to market that is more suitable for general photographic purposes including weddings and events such as the ones Kenspo was photographing professionally (metal rock band performances or whatever). I am confident that we will see a FF camera that is a significant step forward in the medium to near future.

11-04-2018, 08:13 PM	#258
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by Larrymc Not many "average" Pentax enthusiasts can afford a $10,000 camera! For the life of me, I can't understand the reasoning of people who push for a Med Format camera first over an APS-C DSLR. Seems to me the "tech" from an APS-C high spec DSLR could trickle up to a Med Format DSLR. I just don't see how a low volume camera like a Med Format DSLR could be more profitable than an APS-C DSLR based on units sold. Mostly shoots with a 645z. Chris Knight Photography Dramatic Portraiture - RGG EDU Ricoh Imaging Ambassadors Nobody is pushing for it first, the 645 platform is pretty old at this point. If Ricoh wants to attract talented photographers, they need the right equipment. I can remember with it seemed like the Pentax 67II was dominating the high-end magazine and fashion world.

11-04-2018, 09:35 PM - 1 Like	#259
kooks Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: San José, Costa Rica Photos: Albums Posts: 794	Originally posted by reh321 The difference between the K-1 and the 5Div is 4.4 fps vs 7 fps. I'm not convinced that is a simple hardware or software issue - they may have to make major changes. Do you actually know it is a simple change?? Im not talking about FPS.. FPS at 4.5 is ok.. the issue with the K1 is not that.. the issue is that the buffer fills too fast, and once it's filled the camera locks and it takes too long to clear.. in order to address that they need a faster circuitry with USH II or (and i'm not sure about this) change the temporary memory so it can hold more data meanwhile the camera writes to the SD cards.. that is what a buffer is, a temporary holder... FPS at 4.5 is ok, there is no big complain about that.. that is why the fix could (only the engineers might know in fact) be an "easy" fix.. Let's suppose that the camera works as a highway and the camera have to move data from point A (the sensor) to point B (SD card), once you shoot in burst and the buffer (street) gets lots of data (cars) you get stock in traffic until point B starts to clear.. what about if you make the bigger parking lot (buffer) in the middie of the road so cars can wait for their turn with out stoping point A to keep working, that could be a way to address the issue.. the other way that is more complex is to build the entire highway bigger so everything will move faster, but that means changing all the circuitry and software... But, im not a camera engineer so I can't tell you if that is or is not possible, im just giving my point of view about the issue.

11-04-2018, 11:44 PM	#261
kenspo Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Oslo Posts: 2,207	Originally posted by reh321 I'm just not convinced that filling the buffer is the central difference between the K-1 and the 5Div - I would need to hear that from the people like Kenspo who have left Pentax because of it. It wasn't the main reason, but it was a part of it. K-1II was even worse then first K-1

11-05-2018, 12:49 AM	#262
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by reh321 What makes you think that the "buffer issue" is "simple" - that it could be easily solved? It isn't simple at all - as I said earlier, the Milbeaut processor only supports 1GB RAM in a dual channel configuration, and it integrates the SD and USB controllers. Indeed, fixing either the buffer size and card writing speed (which I agree are the most serious limitations) would require a new processor. In other words, a new model - not just a mid-life update. And if you do that, why not update the sensor, the AF system...

11-05-2018, 01:10 AM - 3 Likes	#263
kenspo Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Oslo Posts: 2,207	With a bit better buffer and maybe AF(I could live with the AF) and maybe slightly more fps, Pentax would be up there as a serious choice amongst pros too (Is now in certain areas). I really want them to succeed. I like the users, the files, the brand + +

11-05-2018, 01:17 AM	#264
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Right. I'm explaining why they didn't do it for the K-1 II upgrade; I'm far from saying I wouldn't want - and pay for - it in a new model.

11-05-2018, 05:53 AM	#265
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	All the buffer memory is built in to the processor? Hopefully the long delay is waiting for a new processor then, realizing they can't do any better than what they have.

11-05-2018, 06:43 AM	#266
D1N0 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2012 Location: --- Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,802	The successor to the current prime processor was already announced in Januari 2017 (Image Processor - Milbeaut® Archives \| Socionext America). But it was mainly aimed at action cams. I am not sure other manufacturers are using it. If so it would be in the Nikon D5/500/7500 but the first two came out before socionext announced it. So maybe Ricoh doesn't have a successor for the current prime and that may be why we haven't been seeing up to date hardware and they have been focussing in improving the prime III/IV (which I still think are just the same processor). Ricoh didn't use the Milbeaut in the Theta 4k. They used a qualcomm. Currently Pentax uses this processor. M-7M Series MB86S22AA \| Image Processors \| Socionext US This is a newer version: MB86S27 \| Multipurpose Image Processor \| Socionext US can do 4k 30p Still cortex-a5. The newest socionext for 360 action cams is cortex-a7.

11-05-2018, 07:04 AM	#268
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by Kunzite @normhear: No, it's not build into the processor - however the processor incorporates the memory controller. I've read in a datasheet a while ago - the M-7M supported up to 1GB RAM in a dual channel configuration mode (which is what they're using, looking at the K-1's mainboard). Thanks for that.

11-05-2018, 01:56 PM	#270
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Originally posted by Larrymc Not many "average" Pentax enthusiasts can afford a $10,000 camera! For the life of me, I can't understand the reasoning of people who push for a Med Format camera first over an APS-C DSLR. Seems to me the "tech" from an APS-C high spec DSLR could trickle up to a Med Format DSLR. I just don't see how a low volume camera like a Med Format DSLR could be more profitable than an APS-C DSLR based on units sold. Well, they sit on 645 lenses inventory and lenses DO make money. The camera is just the tool to trigger the lens sales.