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09-24-2008, 12:42 PM   #181
cyg
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QuoteOriginally posted by roentarre Quote
Films are definitely full frame.
And while we are on that topic, film cameras all use the same sensor, from entry-level to high-end pro camera.

09-24-2008, 12:51 PM   #182
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
Why do you need Hoya to say anything? The writing is on the wall!
The future of Pentax right now is APS-C!



Why are people still demanding FF from Pentax?
Do you know that Nikon D700's sales in Japan has dropped to 0.9% market share in less than 2 months after launch? And the combined sales of Nikon D3 + D700 is only 1.1% market share in Japan?

Given the traditional Nikon : Pentax sales ratio, how many Pentax FF can be sold? There is just no way a Pentax FF can break even (let alone making any money at all) or recoup its R&D and marketing cost at current market condition!
Thanks, nosnoop, for the refreshing approach: facts. I love it. We'll see how many forum members get it.

You're right about market share and about amortization of development and marketing costs. The (comparatively) small number of people here who are disappointed in the lack of a FF, MF, super whiz-bang camera system does not constitute a market large enough to make that effort pay. At least not yet.

In most cases, leading-edge products are developed with the cash generated by the mass market. As others have pointed out over and over again. We should be cheering the introduction of entry-level products to establish the base for innovation and reach.

Hoya has to get new customers into the fold quickly to keep the brand alive. It's in our interest to support that.

We certainly can make our own wishes known but too often these posts sound like self-centered small children unhappy that they can't get what they want from mum.

Let's just hope mum doesn't get fed up with all of this and move house without leaving a forwarding address.
09-24-2008, 12:53 PM   #183
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QuoteOriginally posted by leeak Quote
http://www.dslr.nl/artikel
This is the ONLY camera I'd use LiveView for.

I don't want to put something that small to my eye. Who does?
09-24-2008, 12:56 PM   #184
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
Maybe, maybe not. Until we have products on the shelf, it's still vaporware...But as I mentioned in another post, hybrid will eventually take over the entry level market.
The G1 will be in stores in November. Just in time for Christmas. Plus it's rotating live view LCD is going to be a huge selling point for the entry level crowd. It will be interesting to see people compare the G1 to the K-M (assuming you can find the K-M on a shelf somewhere). I expect the KM to have the IQ advantage over the G1 and obviously has SR built in, but the G1 will still be smaller...and it will be totally silent (no screw drive going or mirror slap). However I think the K-M is going to be cheaper.

I personally would go with the G1, but then again I also truly believe mirrorless is the future (I started a m4/3's thread for a reason), but I don't know if the average beginner is thinking 10 years down the road when buying their first SLR (or EVIL).

09-24-2008, 01:02 PM   #185
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QuoteOriginally posted by cyg Quote
And while we are on that topic, film cameras all use the same sensor, from entry-level to high-end pro camera.
Don't think so: Put Velvia on a Zenit and you'll beat easily a Nikon F loaded with Kodak GOLD [if the latter permits such a shame]!

Ah, the pleasures of interchangeable sensors
09-24-2008, 01:19 PM   #186
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QuoteOriginally posted by zntgrg Quote
Don't think so: Put Velvia on a Zenit and you'll beat easily a Nikon F loaded with Kodak GOLD [if the latter permits such a shame]!

Ah, the pleasures of interchangeable sensors
I found this package of film simulator filters the other week:
Alien Skin Software: Exposure

For the first time I've been truly happy with digital images. They were always too clean for my liking. I ran this series of school bus photos through their "Polaroid 669" filter and viola, my photos have life again:
http://ericparks.com/schoolbuses

Here's another one, this time I used their Velvia 50 setting:
http://ericparks.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/_igp3418-edit.jpg
09-24-2008, 01:24 PM   #187
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marcus Quote
This is the ONLY camera I'd use LiveView for.

I don't want to put something that small to my eye. Who does?
So you tried K-m already? What a lucky man ...
09-24-2008, 01:36 PM   #188
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
So you tried K-m already? What a lucky man ...
^ Yeah right! I haven't tried K-m at all.

But it does look small enough to not be very noticeable. My interest in it is going up the more and more I learn about it. But there is no green button on the camera, as far as I can see.

09-24-2008, 01:52 PM   #189
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
The G1 will be in stores in November. Just in time for Christmas. Plus it's rotating live view LCD is going to be a huge selling point for the entry level crowd. It will be interesting to see people compare the G1 to the K-M (assuming you can find the K-M on a shelf somewhere). I expect the KM to have the IQ advantage over the G1 and obviously has SR built in, but the G1 will still be smaller...and it will be totally silent (no screw drive going or mirror slap). However I think the K-M is going to be cheaper.

I personally would go with the G1, but then again I also truly believe mirrorless is the future (I started a m4/3's thread for a reason), but I don't know if the average beginner is thinking 10 years down the road when buying their first SLR (or EVIL).
A good approach to mirrorless for pentax would be to collaborate with samsung on a micro APS-C system. Make an adaptor for Pentax lenses and you have a nice smooth transition to micro. I admit I was very much against the micro system when I first heard of it, but as I thought it through I'm getting more interested.

Last edited by Alan 2; 09-24-2008 at 02:02 PM.
09-24-2008, 02:23 PM   #190
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QuoteOriginally posted by leeak Quote
I know what you are saying Art, but with the introduction of the K-m/K2000, the size of the pancakes becomes relevant again. Unlike Oly and Panny, Pentax already have a superb line of pancakes. I would love to see someone holding the K-m w/ a DA40/2.8. The size should surprise many. The K-m should beat the micro4/3 with the larger APS-C sensor and DS2 with DA Limit selection.

http://www.dslr.nl/artikel
are you a giant???
09-24-2008, 04:02 PM   #191
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QuoteOriginally posted by dave sz Quote
are you a giant???
LOL

Thanks for that comment.

I've had that same thought. Huge hands or very small K-m?
09-24-2008, 04:03 PM   #192
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QuoteOriginally posted by GaryML Quote
New lenses are always a plus for any system, and the 15mm Limited looks like a nice replacement for the DA 14mm. The macro flash fills a hole in the flash line-up. The low-end K-M body may attract new users and serve as the "digital K1000" entry level camera that has been discussed for years.

The disappointments are:
The macro flash looks like one of the old ringflashes Pentax used to sell, updated to P-TTL. Nothing revolutionary like the Nikon i-TTL macro flash introduced years ago. Such a simple update should have been made 2 years ago when Pentax abandoned support for TTL flash.

QuoteOriginally posted by GaryML Quote
1. Glacially slow development and production time for new lenses. How long has it taken to get the 60-250mm into production? - over 2 1/2 years and it still isn't on shelves this month or even next month. They really need to solve the problem of the inability to get products to the market. I gave up waiting for this lens over a year ago and went with a different system. Still no fast normal lens (DA* 30) and no fast super-telephotos.
It looks like Pentax is allergic to lenses 400mm and longer. Pentax used to sell 600mm and 1200mm lenses. Now its longest lens is a 300mm. Very disappointing.

QuoteOriginally posted by GaryML Quote
I understand that Pentax isn't prepared to compete in the pro market, but the advanced pro-sumer market could be a profitable niche for them if they get their act together. They need better AF, at least 5 fps frame rates, a 3" high resolution LCD and superior high ISO performance to stay competitive. I don't think they have the ability to produce a decent line of full frame lenses in this decade, so they better find a way to do this with the current APS-C format.
The advanced pro-sumer market is now dominated by full frame cameras like the Sony A900, Nikon D700 and Canon 5DMKII. Pentax has nothing in this category to compete. Looks like Pentax needs some serious catching up to do to even compete in the pro-sumer category. Full frame lenses are easy enough to produce. It is the DA lenses that are taking Pentax all this time to develop. It took Pentax about a year to come up with an entire series of SMC M lenses to replace all the K lenses introduced with the K2, KX and KM. So it should not take much longer than that to come up with a new series of full frame lenses. If they stick with APS-C, then they would need to sell their cameras for less than the Canon 50D, a 6+ fps, 15mp camera with low noise at high ISO settings. Even if Pentax is content at being a niche player, it is not an easy niche to be in.
09-24-2008, 04:36 PM   #193
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anastigmat Quote

It looks like Pentax is allergic to lenses 400mm and longer. Pentax used to sell 600mm and 1200mm lenses. Now its longest lens is a 300mm. Very disappointing.
They still produce and sell the 300mm F2.8 and the 600mm F4. I suggest you buy one if you are interested in big glass. If people were actually buying this stuff maybe they would produce more of it
09-24-2008, 05:34 PM   #194
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alan 2 Quote
A good approach to mirrorless for pentax would be to collaborate with samsung on a micro APS-C system. Make an adaptor for Pentax lenses and you have a nice smooth transition to micro. I admit I was very much against the micro system when I first heard of it, but as I thought it through I'm getting more interested.
That sounds good to me. I really hope they go in with Samsung on their EVIL system. As quickly as technology is advancing there really is no need for a 70 year old mirror box design anymore. The only two real issues I see they might struggle to develop a fast contrast detection auto focus, and it might also be a challenge for them to develop a high quality EVF. According to the previews I've read Panasonic has manged to do both of these things, but they used technology developed for professional video cameras for the EVF and who knows how long they've been working on the autofocus system for this camera before making the original m4/3's announcement.

Unless others have been secretly working on similar systems it sounds like Panasonic has a massive head start on the rest of the industry. I just hope Leica keeps developing lenses for them.
09-24-2008, 05:49 PM   #195
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Unfortunately for Pentax the big lens system is a catch 22 for them. First you need to have a high end camera to put them on and you need a lot of pros using the Pentax brand that have a need for these high dollar telephotos. I don't see how Pentax can justify building a line of 300 f2.8, 400 f2.8 , 500mm f4.0 and 600mm f4.0 lenses for the market they have at present. Nikon and canon both already have these lenses and they now have a huge supply of used ones that are cheeper that the serious amateur can buy. Most big newspapers now supply their shooter with all this big glass for them to use. Pentax just doesn't have this type of customer. I wish they did because it would change the whole complection of the Pentax world. Pentax had a good start back in the 80's but lost it when they didn't get on the af band wagon when they should have. Canon changed their lens mount, ticked off a lot of customers but still became huge because of their gamble. BTW you can special order the old 600mmf4.0 lens and it a month or more to get one. It is out dated and much heavier than current 600's from other companys. I think those few out there that have one can testify to that.
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