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09-25-2008, 06:57 PM   #226
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QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
I don't think you're grasping what I'm saying - there's little point in paying for a big lens that covers an image circle big enough to cover a 24 x 36 frame and then stick it on a camera body that effectively chops off more than half of what it covers, since there's very little looonnnggg glass that's not FF (the longest "APS-C only" lenses being 300mm). Putting big FF teles on an APS-C body is sort of like buying a V8 engine and running it on 4 cylinders all of the time. I'm NOT suggesting that you can't take good pics with your K20D (or whatever body you have).

As for all of the "bashing" commentary, I submit to you that the ones who really "bash" Pentax are the ones who suggest that Pentax is incapable of competing with Nikon and Canon. Pentax should take insult with such comments. I for one think they are more than capable, especially with partners like Samsung and Hoya. This is a team that can kick some serious butt...just getting impatient waiting for them to get on with it.
I understand what you're saying to a point, but all of the long lenses out there are FF because they naturally project large image circles. I think you're comments would have even more validity if Pentax were to make an APS-C long lens. Then you really are throwing away that extra image because you are artificially chopping it off. I would love to see some good long glass but its a moot point for me because I can't afford it and will probably never be able to justify the expense even if I could afford it.

The whole argument over full frame does have some validity because we all want to see Pentax as a serious competitor in all markets. I think they do very well with what they do (as I mentioned before I love my K20) but of course I want to see more even if I'm not going to buy it now. But we all know that Pentax still doesn't have the resources necessary to make all of these systems a reality. For now I think they made the right decision with the K-m and if they do things right we'll be seeing something bigger and better not far down the road.

As far as this forum goes though, it does no good to constantly repeat the same complaint over and over again. That just starts arguments and does nothing to further the community here.

09-25-2008, 07:44 PM   #227
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QuoteOriginally posted by troywhite Quote
Does anyone else get a woodie from this photo or is it only me :P

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/photokina2008/Zeiss/DSC_0692.jpg
cancel that mortgage payment, i've just seen something new for a LBA restraining order!
09-25-2008, 09:27 PM   #228
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Go ahead and buy a standard MM/AE Contax lens, then have fun here.

Tempting, although sort of not at the same time...
09-25-2008, 10:22 PM   #229
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The last rumors from Photokina:
1. Close to PMA we will see top APS-C camera (1/8000, higher fps) based on K20D.
2. 645D will be launched on spring 2009.
3. No FF in the near future.

small and top APS-C and digital MF.

09-25-2008, 10:31 PM   #230
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QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
LOL I think we need some word bubbles for these three...left to right:

"This is pathetic, but who cares? I'm retiring soon."

"Man, look at all those people over there. Wonder why they don't come over here."

"Sh!t, is this all we've got?"

+100 cool comment...
09-26-2008, 01:10 AM   #231
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QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
LOL I think we need some word bubbles for these three...left to right:

"This is pathetic, but who cares? I'm retiring soon."

"Man, look at all those people over there. Wonder why they don't come over here."

"Sh!t, is this all we've got?"

Darn it, you have me in stitches. Good quips.
09-26-2008, 02:03 AM   #232
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QuoteOriginally posted by mk07138 Quote
...because I can't afford it and will probably never be able to justify the expense even if I could afford it.
The whole argument over full frame does have some validity because we all want to see Pentax as a serious competitor in all markets. I think they do very well with what they do (as I mentioned before I love my K20) but of course I want to see more even if I'm not going to buy it now. But we all know that Pentax still doesn't have the resources necessary to make all of these systems a reality. For now I think they made the right decision with the K-m and if they do things right we'll be seeing something bigger and better not far down the road.
FF is not a panacea. I have no interest in Pentax developing a camera for old lenses. The 'benefits' of FF are not enough to justify the capital investment and market risk. It WILL require all new lenses to be 'worth' it. If that's the option, it's too risky for Pentax to have existing lens customers switch to another brand. Strident hopes that old FA (or older) lenses are going to give acceptable results on a DIGITAL (ie. not FILM) camera are ridiculous and delusional. The nightmare of dealing with customers and forum posters who buy a FF camera, and put on a really old lens and then whine would be overwhelming. Additionally, where's the up-sell profit in making a camera for old lenses? Oh right, there's none.
I was immediately concerned when Samsung made FF noises, and it looks like the relationship is basically over and it doesn't bother me at all. In fact I'm pretty happy with the Photokina developments for that reason alone. The argument it is necessary to compete in the FF space, I just can't agree with. For every reason it's 'valid' there's at least 5 it is not.
I CAN afford a K20D right now but man, the photos I just took today with my *istDS and DA40 are so good I'm strongly considering not 'upgrading'. I have no doubt the pictures will be better, but THAT much better? I'm going to go rent a K20D and look very strongly at the K-M because I do want SR though.
Pentax/Hoya is acting responsibly and carefully and I will continue to recommend them to anybody who asks me because it looks like affordability is a primary objective of the company and I like that.
Do I want bigger? No. Do I want better? Yes. Do I think better will be an upgraded APS-C? Without question. But then, I would have bet that my monthly scotch allowance that any new camera would have a Samsung sensor. The SONY sensor surprised me. Oh well.
09-26-2008, 04:28 AM   #233
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mr. The Guy Quote
I CAN afford a K20D right now but man, the photos I just took today with my *istDS and DA40 are so good I'm strongly considering not 'upgrading'. I have no doubt the pictures will be better, but THAT much better? I'm going to go rent a K20D and look very strongly at the K-M because I do want SR though.
I sincerelly recomand you NOT to rent that K20D if you're not ready to buy one. Because, yes, pictures are THAT much better than the 6Mp sensor especially with a very good lens like DA40.

Regards,
Radu

09-26-2008, 06:46 AM   #234
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
I sincerelly recomand you NOT to rent that K20D if you're not ready to buy one. Because, yes, pictures are THAT much better than the 6Mp sensor especially with a very good lens like DA40.

Regards,
Radu
Where is your review of K-m? Can I read it?
09-26-2008, 06:48 AM   #235
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From Pentax's interview
「K20D」と「K200D」の後継機を2009年夏前に投入

The priority is 645D. Not FF.
New models of APS-C cameras instead of K200D and K20D will be on market on summer, 2009. As I understand it will be with new sensors.
I think it will be announced close to spring of 2009.


Samsung is not priority as sensor maker for Pentax.
He said that Pentax would choose THE BEST from sensors for K300D and K30D,
referring to Sony which made good sensors for K200D and K-m.

As I understand K200D/K-m have another version of 10 Mp CCD sensor than K10D.

Very good price for body of K-m in Japan. 475 USD approx.
09-26-2008, 06:57 AM   #236
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
I sincerelly recomand you NOT to rent that K20D if you're not ready to buy one. Because, yes, pictures are THAT much better than the 6Mp sensor especially with a very good lens like DA40.

Regards,
Radu
RaduA, can you be alittle more specific in your reply please. I have yet to see anything even on the Nikon D3 that I cannot do on my istDs. (Well I cannot do the Nikon High ISO Smear thing:ugh

Do you find post processing much less, white balance better and overall colour accuracy better with a K20D? I am curious as from what I have seen off of the K20D I am very impressed; but overall IQ being vastly superior is something I have not seen.

Thanks....
09-26-2008, 07:51 AM   #237
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mr. The Guy Quote
FF is not a panacea.
I agree with you. I will be much happier to see a high end APS-C or something unique come out of Pentax R + D.

The point I was trying to make was that many people want to see Pentax as a big company with as much clout as Canon and or Nikon and therefore want to see them producing as many products as those two companies. From what I've seen if I had gotten into the DSLR market a few years back I would have one of the *ist cameras and probably wouldn't have upgraded either because I'm very impressed by them. I did buy the K20 and I love it and I'm not planning on upgrading it just because something newer and shinier comes along. I look at all of these arguments to have some validity based solely on the idea that we want Pentax to increase its market share. Meaning the idea itself may not be a good one for Pentax (hence them avoiding FF and releasing the K-m) but the argument has some merit because it is based on people wanting Pentax to succeed.

As for your concern with the lenses, I have to disagree with you to a point. Obviously newer lens designs can take more advantage of what the strengths and weaknesses are for digital sensors, but I use several M series lenses and a couple of A series lenses and they take as good of pictures as my DA series lenses if I use them correctly.

Obviously you are right about having people buy a full frame body only to have legacy lenses to put on it. That would most certainly be an awful business approach, but I think we would find the image quality for much of that glass to be just fine. If those lenses take good pictures at 14.6 MP they'll most likely take good pictures at 15.0 MP and they'll probably look fine up near 20 MP. I think a lot of newer glass starts to show its flaws past 20 MP also.
09-26-2008, 03:50 PM   #238
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3702 m2

QuoteOriginally posted by Russell-Evans Quote
Where, oh where, did you find the 3702 M2 adapter?

Thank you
Russell
I cheated, Russell. Rather than buying one new from Adorama or B&H, I bought the older model on a Web site that owns PayPal and sent it in to Bogen for a new chip. Getting to the right person at Bogen was the hardest part but persistence paid.

They re-chipped it at no cost and had it back in a week.

Good luck!
09-26-2008, 05:29 PM   #239
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QuoteOriginally posted by mk07138 Quote
As for your concern with the lenses, I have to disagree with you to a point. Obviously newer lens designs can take more advantage of what the strengths and weaknesses are for digital sensors, but I use several M series lenses and a couple of A series lenses and they take as good of pictures as my DA series lenses if I use them correctly.

Obviously you are right about having people buy a full frame body only to have legacy lenses to put on it. That would most certainly be an awful business approach, but I think we would find the image quality for much of that glass to be just fine. If those lenses take good pictures at 14.6 MP they'll most likely take good pictures at 15.0 MP and they'll probably look fine up near 20 MP. I think a lot of newer glass starts to show its flaws past 20 MP also.
I have an even stronger disagreement about the lenses; plenty of film-era lenses have been used on digital FF bodies with great results. Now if you're talking the cheap, mediocre lenses from that era, that's a different story, but the high quality lenses will produce good results. There's a ton of FUD out there about the alleged "need" for the "latest, greatest" lenses to take "full advantage" of FF (particularly high-res FF) sensors, but that's just more BS to push product. The real irony here is that crop sensors place higher demands on the lenses than FF sensors, because when you crop you force the lens to resolve the details that much smaller. Smaller format lenses always have placed higher demands on lens quality, and always will; larger formats will always place less demands on lens quality. This is an optical issue, and has nothing to do with film vs. digital, pixel counts or densities, etc. - it's a fact and it's not going to change. Thus, the notion that the legacy lenses we get great results with on the crop cameras are going to "disappoint" on a FF body is pure nonsense. As for the use of legacy lenses on digital bodies, what do you think people with legacy lenses are doing now?! We're not rushing out to buy new APS-C only lenses, I can tell you that! Pentax wouldn't HAVE much of a customer base without those legacy lenses and backward compatibility, and if they don't get to FF before too much longer, they'll lose a good bit of business as those who want it buy other makes. Furthermore, as the technology continues to improve (i.e., as yields continue to increase, waste continues to decrease, and sensor costs continue to decline), FF prices will continue to come down, and as they do you'll be amazed at how many people who have declared their lack of interest will suddenly rethink their views.
09-26-2008, 09:03 PM   #240
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I've posted my views as Friday's article on Yvon's Pentax Blog. Feel free to leave some comments after the article!
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