Pentax products at Photokina - disappointment or admiration?

marlon · 09-25-2008, 03:00 AM

Originally posted by NorthPentax

The only way Pentax would be a household name is to make affordable cameras with -Good built quality.
-Good jpeg quality straight out of the camera (better than C. 400/450D and N. D40/60/90)
-Easy to understand menu's and layout.
-Functions like live view and soon they must implement a video function. I don't like either of those function, but people want it.
-And allway's be one of the best camera's in every consumer test's.

Well said, but there are some glitches.

1. the quality is already very good, my k100d and k20d are being treated like $3 gutter whores and they keep delivering.
2. The menu's are damn easy and simple, anything simpler would intellectually insult me
3. Live view is already on the k20d right? it just needs work (i agree on the video albeit useless and stupid since I have a v/cam)
4. This won't happen. Reviewers are like jocks, brownosing gets you the hosting support and donations, ads and banners etc.

NorthPentax · 09-25-2008, 04:29 AM

1. Not on the K100D
2. Again, the K100D had the worst menu in most of the norwegian consumer tests.
3. Live view don't work like it should on the K20D. If people who goes from P&S to dSLR buy camera's like K20D they will choose Nikon D90 every time. But they don't buy D90 or K20D. They buy Canon 400/450D, Nikon D40/60, Sony A200/300/350, Olympus E-420/520 and Pentax K200D. And most of them choose Canon 450D.
4. Sad but true. Money talks...

Edit: I'm talking about consumer tests, not tests for people like you and me that have above average interest in dSLR's.

marlon · 09-25-2008, 04:58 AM

Thanks for the correction, I misunderstood the minor points there. Apologies

I suppose I can't disagree on the live view/k20d concern, it's a bit "new".
My K100D have however, been very robust and sturdy through the ages, perhaps having it for 2 years means I am allowed to comment on it's durability, or perhaps not.

montecarlo · 09-25-2008, 05:07 AM

Originally posted by NorthPentax

1. Not on the K100D
2. Again, the K100D had the worst menu in most of the norwegian consumer tests.
3. Live view don't work like it should on the K20D. If people who goes from P&S to dSLR buy camera's like K20D they will choose Nikon D90 every time. But they don't buy D90 or K20D. They buy Canon 400/450D, Nikon D40/60, Sony A200/300/350, Olympus E-420/520 and Pentax K200D. And most of them choose Canon 450D.
4. Sad but true. Money talks...

Edit: I'm talking about consumer tests, not tests for people like you and me that have above average interest in dSLR's.

Money does not talk. Marketing does

collaborated to the fact that usually people that are not interested in photography (and some times even some amateurs) are choosing a camera in a , let's say, superficial way. Thay don't compare every details, features and specifications of a dSLR. I made a research of about six months before I bought a DSLR.
K200D and K20D have more features than any other cameras in the same price range (more features for the same money), but still they are not the "best buy" cameras.
Yes, is also true that these features are for serius amateur/pro photographers and not for persons who don't even read the camera's manual or don't understand at least the basics of photography (I wonder if they own a photography related book).
I think that in 5-6 months the K-m will be the one of the cheapest entry level camera together with Nikon's D40 but , again , will have more features than that.

mk07138 · 09-25-2008, 05:49 AM

I'm kinda amazed with the comment that it isn't "worth it" to put good long glass on anything other than full frame. . . . . . Won't it still take a picture? Come on, you can complain about the finer details, but I know that my K20 takes damn good pictures and i know it would still continue to take damn good pictures if I put a 300 f2.8 on it or a 500 f4. I'm going to buy a lens based on the increased flexibility it gives me in taking pictures. I'm not going to look at a full frame lens and say "damn, its too good for my APS-C, I can't buy it now" Thats a load of horse s**t.

thibs · 09-25-2008, 06:27 AM

Originally posted by mk07138

I'm kinda amazed with the comment that it isn't "worth it" to put good long glass on anything other than full frame. . .

Moreover the crop factor is something Tele lovers are looking after. It gives FOX times 1.5 with compactness. And do not tell me they need DOF control, at that FOV, I rellay doubt DOF is any issue at all.

marlon · 09-25-2008, 06:59 AM

Originally posted by mk07138

I'm kinda amazed with the comment that it isn't "worth it" to put good long glass on anything other than full frame. . . . . . Won't it still take a picture? Come on, you can complain about the finer details, but I know that my K20 takes damn good pictures and i know it would still continue to take damn good pictures if I put a 300 f2.8 on it or a 500 f4. I'm going to buy a lens based on the increased flexibility it gives me in taking pictures. I'm not going to look at a full frame lens and say "damn, its too good for my APS-C, I can't buy it now" Thats a load of horse s**t.

amen brother!

Dan · 09-25-2008, 07:21 AM

I'm pleased with the announcements. The one lens that I have really been hoping for is a small prime in the 14mm-16mm range. I have the 12-24mm zoom, which is very sharp and well built, but it is larger than I would like. The 14mm DA is also a nice lens, but it is also too big, and I don't need f/2.8 in a wide angle. The 15mm Limited is exactly what I want. Pentax must be reading my mind.

My only disappointment is that it is not available now.

The "Super Telephoto" is also intriguing. Currently I am using the F* 300mm f/4.5 and the Tamron 400mm f/4 LD-IF. These are both very sharp, even wide open. Nonetheless, I am looking forward to the next announcement regarding the new telephoto. I wouldn't mind a new autofocus lens in the 400mm-500mm range (the Tamron is manual focus), but I don't really need it. Moreover, the Sigma 500mm f/4.5 is well regarded and affordable, so the gap here is not all that bad.

The speed of development of new Pentax gear is a bit disappointing, but I try to keep in mind that patience is a virtue.

Dan

Cambo · 09-25-2008, 07:55 AM

Originally posted by marlon

1. the quality is already very good, my k100d and k20d are being treated like $3 gutter whores and they keep delivering.

Not to be overtly PC, but that's a very nasty colloquialism for a camera review in a public forum. They are, after all, people, too.

Haven't heard that one before, and I hope I don't again. That's just plain ugly.

Cheers,
Cameron

vinzer · 09-25-2008, 09:11 AM

Originally posted by marlon

Im so sick of the pentax bashing on this site.
Im confirming the impressions of **** countrymen being moaners and complainers.
If you want out, take out, the rest of us are happy.
Pentax have always been slower and thorough, and yet the happy crowd among us have always loved and stuck to it, and there are reasons. They don't WANT to be capitalist mp chasing greedboys, I think Pentax still cares for photography more than money and snob elitist attitudes (which is more that I can say for some other 2 major brands).
Besides, I am 150% certain you will see large format cameras sooner than you think, Samsung and Hoya just climbed into the ring a bit late for photokina

I am amazed at how the same moaning sobs who keep repeating themselves over some silly photography expo, keep posting here. Buy into another system and do us a favour.

Sit back, enjoy photography, stop relying so much on having the largest and best hardware and if that fails you, have a nice life.

Thanks

Of course, while you make good points, the intended recipients of your message will intentionally ignore you. Sad, but true.

Chaoron · 09-25-2008, 11:01 AM

Sorry for the long comment, but I'd really like to share my ideas about Pentax marketing and current DSLRs. I also would like to stop you trolling and shaming Pentax for the current releases as I believe it is the right way.

I haven't read the whole thread through, so sorry for the possible repeats.

A little background: I am no way a professional, but a hobby photographer - or pro-sumer as you sometimes call it. I've used Cannon G3 for 5 years so I was a really Canon believer, but at the end I've realized my photography knowledge has way overgrown that camera's knowledge. I've been hesitating for more than a year to chose between Canon and Nikon, and finally I've arrived to Pentax just because K10D in that time has no severe cons but the ergonomics and compatibility was much better than the others (in the price range). It just did its job in in a good way as does it nowadays. I could not quote the review from which the final decision was made, but it told something like "Pentax is not superior in any way, but it does the its job well without the other brands annoying issues.".

I think that releasing an FF camera would be some kind of the end of Pentax itself. It is a struggling company, without having the necessary market share and FF takes a lot of research and money. Just ask yourself, do we really need FF? Does it make sense in a real way? With the normal 0.75-0.78 magnification viewfinder, you just see something like as on 1.3 crop camera. The technology for APS-C is already enough for taking very good photos even in the professional sense. The noise can be low and we even have 4.5mm fisheye for wide angle. Not to mention it is really not the place to compete for Pentax - they haven't got the lens for that.

I agree we do miss two things though, iso noise reduction and better AF.

K-m is the way to get new Pentax users. It has nearly the same specs as K10D (the only thing is really different is the pentamirror, not the battery). I think the K-m in AF sense must be much better than the other Pentax DSLRs, it must be the reason for using 5 points only - but I'm still waiting for the real tests.

Both the 30mm and the 55/f1.4 is a real interest on APS-C (for me), and the ring flash is just the thing to fill the hole in the available flash accessories.

The 60-250/f4 is expensive, but if it really does its job, I would never change it for the Tamron 70-200 with TC because of the resolution we could have. Also the 1.4 TC is a very good news, as it can be still used with 55-300 or the same little slower zooms (1 f-stop vs. 1.5 f-stop).

The lens roadmap is not updated officially, so we only know rumors to be based on. Well, everybody wants a 10-800/f1.4, but it's impossible with our current knowledge.

24X36NOW · 09-25-2008, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by mk07138

I'm kinda amazed with the comment that it isn't "worth it" to put good long glass on anything other than full frame. . . . . . Won't it still take a picture? Come on, you can complain about the finer details, but I know that my K20 takes damn good pictures and i know it would still continue to take damn good pictures if I put a 300 f2.8 on it or a 500 f4. I'm going to buy a lens based on the increased flexibility it gives me in taking pictures. I'm not going to look at a full frame lens and say "damn, its too good for my APS-C, I can't buy it now" Thats a load of horse s**t.

I don't think you're grasping what I'm saying - there's little point in paying for a big lens that covers an image circle big enough to cover a 24 x 36 frame and then stick it on a camera body that effectively chops off more than half of what it covers, since there's very little looonnnggg glass that's not FF (the longest "APS-C only" lenses being 300mm). Putting big FF teles on an APS-C body is sort of like buying a V8 engine and running it on 4 cylinders all of the time. I'm NOT suggesting that you can't take good pics with your K20D (or whatever body you have).

As for all of the "bashing" commentary, I submit to you that the ones who really "bash" Pentax are the ones who suggest that Pentax is incapable of competing with Nikon and Canon. Pentax should take insult with such comments. I for one think they are more than capable, especially with partners like Samsung and Hoya. This is a team that can kick some serious butt...just getting impatient waiting for them to get on with it.

24X36NOW · 09-25-2008, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by ogl

The managgers are not very happy...

LOL I think we need some word bubbles for these three...left to right:

"This is pathetic, but who cares? I'm retiring soon."

"Man, look at all those people over there. Wonder why they don't come over here."

"Sh!t, is this all we've got?"

regken · 09-25-2008, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by 24X36NOW

LOL I think we need some word bubbles for these three...left to right:

"This is pathetic, but who cares? I'm retiring soon."

"Man, look at all those people over there. Wonder why they don't come over here."

"Sh!t, is this all we've got?"

ROTFLMAO!!!!! I've been working trade shows since 1970 and you hit every caption on the head. Funniest post I've seen on this board since it began.

Thanks,
Ken

Marcus · 09-25-2008, 06:39 PM

Originally posted by NorthPentax

The only way Pentax would be a household name is to make affordable cameras with -Good built quality.
-Good jpeg quality straight out of the camera (better than C. 400/450D and N. D40/60/90)
-Easy to understand menu's and layout.
-Functions like live view and soon they must implement a video function. I don't like either of those function, but people want it.
-And allway's be one of the best camera's in every consumer test's.

And you forgot one important thing:

A TELEVISION COMMERCIAL!

A couple of celebrity endorsements and there you have it. Household name.

09-25-2008, 07:55 AM	#219
Cambo Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Vancouver, BC Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,016	Rather nasty comment... Originally posted by marlon 1. the quality is already very good, my k100d and k20d are being treated like $3 gutter whores and they keep delivering. Not to be overtly PC, but that's a very nasty colloquialism for a camera review in a public forum. They are, after all, people, too. Haven't heard that one before, and I hope I don't again. That's just plain ugly. Cheers, Cameron

09-25-2008, 11:01 AM	#221
Chaoron New Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Budapest Posts: 4	Stop trolling/shaming Sorry for the long comment, but I'd really like to share my ideas about Pentax marketing and current DSLRs. I also would like to stop you trolling and shaming Pentax for the current releases as I believe it is the right way. I haven't read the whole thread through, so sorry for the possible repeats. A little background: I am no way a professional, but a hobby photographer - or pro-sumer as you sometimes call it. I've used Cannon G3 for 5 years so I was a really Canon believer, but at the end I've realized my photography knowledge has way overgrown that camera's knowledge. I've been hesitating for more than a year to chose between Canon and Nikon, and finally I've arrived to Pentax just because K10D in that time has no severe cons but the ergonomics and compatibility was much better than the others (in the price range). It just did its job in in a good way as does it nowadays. I could not quote the review from which the final decision was made, but it told something like "Pentax is not superior in any way, but it does the its job well without the other brands annoying issues.". I think that releasing an FF camera would be some kind of the end of Pentax itself. It is a struggling company, without having the necessary market share and FF takes a lot of research and money. Just ask yourself, do we really need FF? Does it make sense in a real way? With the normal 0.75-0.78 magnification viewfinder, you just see something like as on 1.3 crop camera. The technology for APS-C is already enough for taking very good photos even in the professional sense. The noise can be low and we even have 4.5mm fisheye for wide angle. Not to mention it is really not the place to compete for Pentax - they haven't got the lens for that. I agree we do miss two things though, iso noise reduction and better AF. K-m is the way to get new Pentax users. It has nearly the same specs as K10D (the only thing is really different is the pentamirror, not the battery). I think the K-m in AF sense must be much better than the other Pentax DSLRs, it must be the reason for using 5 points only - but I'm still waiting for the real tests. Both the 30mm and the 55/f1.4 is a real interest on APS-C (for me), and the ring flash is just the thing to fill the hole in the available flash accessories. The 60-250/f4 is expensive, but if it really does its job, I would never change it for the Tamron 70-200 with TC because of the resolution we could have. Also the 1.4 TC is a very good news, as it can be still used with 55-300 or the same little slower zooms (1 f-stop vs. 1.5 f-stop). The lens roadmap is not updated officially, so we only know rumors to be based on. Well, everybody wants a 10-800/f1.4, but it's impossible with our current knowledge.

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09-25-2008, 03:00 AM	#211
marlon Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Cape Town, South Africa Posts: 232	Originally posted by NorthPentax The only way Pentax would be a household name is to make affordable cameras with -Good built quality. -Good jpeg quality straight out of the camera (better than C. 400/450D and N. D40/60/90) -Easy to understand menu's and layout. -Functions like live view and soon they must implement a video function. I don't like either of those function, but people want it. -And allway's be one of the best camera's in every consumer test's. Well said, but there are some glitches. 1. the quality is already very good, my k100d and k20d are being treated like $3 gutter whores and they keep delivering. 2. The menu's are damn easy and simple, anything simpler would intellectually insult me 3. Live view is already on the k20d right? it just needs work (i agree on the video albeit useless and stupid since I have a v/cam) 4. This won't happen. Reviewers are like jocks, brownosing gets you the hosting support and donations, ads and banners etc.

09-25-2008, 04:29 AM	#212
NorthPentax Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: No(r)way Photos: Gallery Posts: 179	1. Not on the K100D 2. Again, the K100D had the worst menu in most of the norwegian consumer tests. 3. Live view don't work like it should on the K20D. If people who goes from P&S to dSLR buy camera's like K20D they will choose Nikon D90 every time. But they don't buy D90 or K20D. They buy Canon 400/450D, Nikon D40/60, Sony A200/300/350, Olympus E-420/520 and Pentax K200D. And most of them choose Canon 450D. 4. Sad but true. Money talks... Edit: I'm talking about consumer tests, not tests for people like you and me that have above average interest in dSLR's.

09-25-2008, 04:58 AM	#213
marlon Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Cape Town, South Africa Posts: 232	Thanks for the correction, I misunderstood the minor points there. Apologies I suppose I can't disagree on the live view/k20d concern, it's a bit "new". My K100D have however, been very robust and sturdy through the ages, perhaps having it for 2 years means I am allowed to comment on it's durability, or perhaps not.

09-25-2008, 05:07 AM	#214
montecarlo Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 161	Originally posted by NorthPentax 1. Not on the K100D 2. Again, the K100D had the worst menu in most of the norwegian consumer tests. 3. Live view don't work like it should on the K20D. If people who goes from P&S to dSLR buy camera's like K20D they will choose Nikon D90 every time. But they don't buy D90 or K20D. They buy Canon 400/450D, Nikon D40/60, Sony A200/300/350, Olympus E-420/520 and Pentax K200D. And most of them choose Canon 450D. 4. Sad but true. Money talks... Edit: I'm talking about consumer tests, not tests for people like you and me that have above average interest in dSLR's. Money does not talk. Marketing does collaborated to the fact that usually people that are not interested in photography (and some times even some amateurs) are choosing a camera in a , let's say, superficial way. Thay don't compare every details, features and specifications of a dSLR. I made a research of about six months before I bought a DSLR. K200D and K20D have more features than any other cameras in the same price range (more features for the same money), but still they are not the "best buy" cameras. Yes, is also true that these features are for serius amateur/pro photographers and not for persons who don't even read the camera's manual or don't understand at least the basics of photography (I wonder if they own a photography related book). I think that in 5-6 months the K-m will be the one of the cheapest entry level camera together with Nikon's D40 but , again , will have more features than that.

09-25-2008, 05:49 AM	#215
mk07138 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Frostburg Maryland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 151	I'm kinda amazed with the comment that it isn't "worth it" to put good long glass on anything other than full frame. . . . . . Won't it still take a picture? Come on, you can complain about the finer details, but I know that my K20 takes damn good pictures and i know it would still continue to take damn good pictures if I put a 300 f2.8 on it or a 500 f4. I'm going to buy a lens based on the increased flexibility it gives me in taking pictures. I'm not going to look at a full frame lens and say "damn, its too good for my APS-C, I can't buy it now" Thats a load of horse s**t.

09-25-2008, 06:27 AM	#216
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Originally posted by mk07138 I'm kinda amazed with the comment that it isn't "worth it" to put good long glass on anything other than full frame. . . Moreover the crop factor is something Tele lovers are looking after. It gives FOX times 1.5 with compactness. And do not tell me they need DOF control, at that FOV, I rellay doubt DOF is any issue at all.

09-25-2008, 06:59 AM	#217
marlon Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Cape Town, South Africa Posts: 232	Originally posted by mk07138 I'm kinda amazed with the comment that it isn't "worth it" to put good long glass on anything other than full frame. . . . . . Won't it still take a picture? Come on, you can complain about the finer details, but I know that my K20 takes damn good pictures and i know it would still continue to take damn good pictures if I put a 300 f2.8 on it or a 500 f4. I'm going to buy a lens based on the increased flexibility it gives me in taking pictures. I'm not going to look at a full frame lens and say "damn, its too good for my APS-C, I can't buy it now" Thats a load of horse s**t. amen brother!

09-25-2008, 07:21 AM	#218
Dan Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 325	I'm pleased with the announcements. The one lens that I have really been hoping for is a small prime in the 14mm-16mm range. I have the 12-24mm zoom, which is very sharp and well built, but it is larger than I would like. The 14mm DA is also a nice lens, but it is also too big, and I don't need f/2.8 in a wide angle. The 15mm Limited is exactly what I want. Pentax must be reading my mind. My only disappointment is that it is not available now. The "Super Telephoto" is also intriguing. Currently I am using the F* 300mm f/4.5 and the Tamron 400mm f/4 LD-IF. These are both very sharp, even wide open. Nonetheless, I am looking forward to the next announcement regarding the new telephoto. I wouldn't mind a new autofocus lens in the 400mm-500mm range (the Tamron is manual focus), but I don't really need it. Moreover, the Sigma 500mm f/4.5 is well regarded and affordable, so the gap here is not all that bad. The speed of development of new Pentax gear is a bit disappointing, but I try to keep in mind that patience is a virtue. Dan

09-25-2008, 09:11 AM	#220
vinzer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Philippines Posts: 1,399	Originally posted by marlon Im so sick of the pentax bashing on this site. Im confirming the impressions of **** countrymen being moaners and complainers. If you want out, take out, the rest of us are happy. Pentax have always been slower and thorough, and yet the happy crowd among us have always loved and stuck to it, and there are reasons. They don't WANT to be capitalist mp chasing greedboys, I think Pentax still cares for photography more than money and snob elitist attitudes (which is more that I can say for some other 2 major brands). Besides, I am 150% certain you will see large format cameras sooner than you think, Samsung and Hoya just climbed into the ring a bit late for photokina I am amazed at how the same moaning sobs who keep repeating themselves over some silly photography expo, keep posting here. Buy into another system and do us a favour. Sit back, enjoy photography, stop relying so much on having the largest and best hardware and if that fails you, have a nice life. Thanks Of course, while you make good points, the intended recipients of your message will intentionally ignore you. Sad, but true.

09-25-2008, 04:40 PM	#222
24X36NOW Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: CT, USA Posts: 498	Originally posted by mk07138 I'm kinda amazed with the comment that it isn't "worth it" to put good long glass on anything other than full frame. . . . . . Won't it still take a picture? Come on, you can complain about the finer details, but I know that my K20 takes damn good pictures and i know it would still continue to take damn good pictures if I put a 300 f2.8 on it or a 500 f4. I'm going to buy a lens based on the increased flexibility it gives me in taking pictures. I'm not going to look at a full frame lens and say "damn, its too good for my APS-C, I can't buy it now" Thats a load of horse s**t. I don't think you're grasping what I'm saying - there's little point in paying for a big lens that covers an image circle big enough to cover a 24 x 36 frame and then stick it on a camera body that effectively chops off more than half of what it covers, since there's very little looonnnggg glass that's not FF (the longest "APS-C only" lenses being 300mm). Putting big FF teles on an APS-C body is sort of like buying a V8 engine and running it on 4 cylinders all of the time. I'm NOT suggesting that you can't take good pics with your K20D (or whatever body you have). As for all of the "bashing" commentary, I submit to you that the ones who really "bash" Pentax are the ones who suggest that Pentax is incapable of competing with Nikon and Canon. Pentax should take insult with such comments. I for one think they are more than capable, especially with partners like Samsung and Hoya. This is a team that can kick some serious butt...just getting impatient waiting for them to get on with it.

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09-25-2008, 05:18 PM	#223
24X36NOW Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: CT, USA Posts: 498	Originally posted by ogl The managgers are not very happy... LOL I think we need some word bubbles for these three...left to right: "This is pathetic, but who cares? I'm retiring soon." "Man, look at all those people over there. Wonder why they don't come over here." "Sh!t, is this all we've got?"

09-25-2008, 06:17 PM	#224
regken Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Bangor, Maine Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,377	Originally posted by 24X36NOW LOL I think we need some word bubbles for these three...left to right: "This is pathetic, but who cares? I'm retiring soon." "Man, look at all those people over there. Wonder why they don't come over here." "Sh!t, is this all we've got?" ROTFLMAO!!!!! I've been working trade shows since 1970 and you hit every caption on the head. Funniest post I've seen on this board since it began. Thanks, Ken

09-25-2008, 06:39 PM	#225
Marcus Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: NJ Posts: 187	Originally posted by NorthPentax The only way Pentax would be a household name is to make affordable cameras with -Good built quality. -Good jpeg quality straight out of the camera (better than C. 400/450D and N. D40/60/90) -Easy to understand menu's and layout. -Functions like live view and soon they must implement a video function. I don't like either of those function, but people want it. -And allway's be one of the best camera's in every consumer test's. And you forgot one important thing: A TELEVISION COMMERCIAL! A couple of celebrity endorsements and there you have it. Household name.