Wild rumour: Samsung to provide APS-C sensors to Ricoh Imaging (and Fujifilm)

RonHendriks1966 · 09-17-2018, 09:33 AM

Socionext has two processors in their lineup for dslr.

Image Signal Processor (Milbeaut®) | Socionext Inc.

No idea wich one is used and wich could be better. Nothing about 4k in this series.

Oh this seems to be their 4k processor http://www.socionext.com/en/products/assp/milbeaut/SC2000.html

Last edited by RonHendriks1966; 09-17-2018 at 09:41 AM.

CarlJF · 09-17-2018, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by normhead

The famous, "it won't cost anything argument." Another untestable theory. How would I phrase that. "Pentax could provide these things for nothing but they won't because they are bad people." or "Pentax could do this for almost nothing but they just aren't smart enough." Whatever way you phrase it, it sounds like Pentax is sitting there with a bag of Christmas goodies but are grinching out on us.

It sounds like Pentax is Santa at the Xmas parade and he's not throwing any candies your way from his big sack full of candies.

If it costs Pentax 50 bucks a camera , it costs me $100 and I'm not wanting to pay even $50 for those options. Pentax's issue with extraneous features that are not of interest to many core users is that development costs are the same as Nikon, Sony and Canon would be, but the R&D costs would have to be spread over a much smaller number of cameras.

And I haven't said it would cost anything. I have said it couldn't cost much more, which is different. The idea being that if Pentax change the Socionext processor for the Samsung one they would have to either:

1) completely write the new software from scratch
2) port the old code to the new processor, assuming it's even possible.
3) build upon the Android core code, which already is working and compatible with the Samsung processor.

All these options will cost something. My point is that 3 will not necessarily cost more than options 1 or 2. If anything, it could even cost less to develop because parts of the code already exist... Now, the question becomes if for the same price or less you would prefer a camera that offer the possibility to easily add features and function upgrades (now or in the future), or if you would pay more for a camera with a specific, locked firmware without much if any possibility for adding features or upgrades.

normhead · 09-17-2018, 09:44 AM

Originally posted by CarlJF

I have said it couldn't cost much more, which is different.

The difference between "not much" and "too much" is so subjective it's hard to even respond to such statements. If you came up wth an actual dollar value, then it's easy, everyone can say either "not much" or "too much". Without it the topic is pretty non-specific to the point of merely being irritating.

CarlJF · 09-17-2018, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by normhead

The difference between "not much" and "too much" is so subjective it's hard to even respond to such statements. If you came up wth an actual dollar value, then it's easy, everyone can say either "not much" or "too much". Without it the topic is pretty non-specific to the point of merely being irritating.

Well, if we had any certainty, official statement by RP, or specific knowledge about any of this it would not be a rumor thread anymore...

serothis · 09-17-2018, 11:07 AM - **1 Like**

Very intriguing. There are quite a few people on PF that love their NX1s. I wouldn't mind seeing a Pentax NX2 (mirrorless implication included)

reh321 · 09-17-2018, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by serothis

Very intriguing. There are quite a few people on PF that love their NX1s. I wouldn't mind seeing a Pentax NX2 (mirrorless implication included)

It would need a EVF and provide a K-mount. There are some people here who will not consider a camera without an OVF - so even with EVF and K-mount, Pentax would disappoint some current users if that were the only camera they announced.

**mlt** · 09-17-2018, 11:33 AM - **6 Likes**

Originally posted by swanlefitte

If pentax would go with apps I hope they have a pentax app store where I can just pay for the apps I want. I would get sudoku to play while I wait for the shot. They need a touchscreen for that.

How about an app that simulates a 30 frame per second burst sound just to annoy your friends shooting the other brands

**ThorSanchez** · 09-17-2018, 11:42 AM - **3 Likes**

Originally posted by reh321

It would need a EVF and provide a K-mount. There are some people here who will not consider a camera without an OVF - so even with EVF and K-mount, Pentax would disappoint some current users if that were the only camera they announced.

Some percentage of current users will be disappointed with whatever they release next. They could release a 36 Mp curved sensor APS-C with good ISO down to 102,400 in a body the size of the KP with 20/sec frame rate and better-than-Nikon autofocus and people will complain the ergonomics hurt their hands and the file sizes are too big and the battery life sucks.

MMVIII · 09-17-2018, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by RonHendriks1966

Socionext has two processors in their lineup for dslr.

Image Signal Processor (Milbeaut®) | Socionext Inc.

No idea wich one is used and wich could be better. Nothing about 4k in this series.

Oh this seems to be their 4k processor Image Signal Processor (Milbeaut®) | Socionext Inc.

Thanks. The SC2000 although seems to for other products, computer vision etc. in action cams. Maybe the Theta...

But I guess this demonstrates again the urge for a proper ISP solution, Socionext does not offer anything here for a new generation camera, at least at their website. Maybe also the Accelerator Unit was born out of the development of alternatives inhouse or from other suppliers?
Fuji also must have found another source for their processor.

serothis · 09-17-2018, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by reh321

It would need a EVF and provide a K-mount. There are some people here who will not consider a camera without an OVF - so even with EVF and K-mount, Pentax would disappoint some current users if that were the only camera they announced.

That horse has been beaten ad nausium. I just like poking the bear.

I do hope this rumor is true. That would mean competition in the sensor market. And if the NX1 is any indication Samsung is more than capable of producing a high quality image sensor.

H.Abendsen · 09-17-2018, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by CarlJF

...would have to... build upon the Android core ...

RICOH already has experience with Android core...

RICOH Theta V... has stepped away from the clunky old RICOH-usual circuitry ... and uses...

guess what... righty right >> StrongARM-Arichitecture(Samsung also uses this CPU Architecture... like most smartphone makers do) ..and ...*drums* *more drums*... Android Core...

So i guess if they wanted to keep the old ways for their upcoming products, they wouldnt have done that on the RICOH Theta V either...
(maybe not in this next upcoming camera but I am pretty sure soon we will have some Android, QNX, or other NiX-embedded system running on the new cameras.)

Sony also utilizes some kind of perverted android code in many of their cameras.

Originally posted by reh321

It would need a EVF and provide a K-mount. There are some people here who will not consider a camera without an OVF - so even with EVF and K-mount, Pentax would disappoint some current users if that were the only camera they announced.

I am one of those people who would rather love to have an OVF, but why for petes sake, do you think that it would need an EVF???

From a technical point of view, there should not be a problem utilizing the Sensor from this MILC(Samsung NX1) in a DSLR
Doing this would just give you "really fast and reliable Autofocus" in Live-View Mode (compared to former PENTAX DSLRs) because it has good On-Sensor-AF-Technology...(209 AF Points)

Everything else would stay the same like on a normal DSLR...
...mirror ->mirror-> AF-module (hopefully with app. 50-100 widespread focus points.) .
And maybe it is even possible to also utilize the on-Sensor-AF tech when shootin "normal"(looking thru the OVF) - by placing semi-transparent spots... *(like the semi-transparent area in the middle for the lightflow to the AF-mirror which reflects to the module on the bottom)
...in the actual(flipping) mirror at the right positions, so on-Sensor AF could react when not in Live-View (That might work with all lenses that offer F:2.8 or F:4 i guess.)

I am really no technician but a bit of a tinkerer and I am pretty sure thats kinda doable, for a company that builds cameras since nearly 100 years that now lives within(or melted with)
a tech giant corporation who produces "wedunnowhat super-complicated technological products" like automated quality control units, huge industry 3D-printers, beamers, dunnowhatelse.. for the industry(Ricoh)

But thats "high hopes" of course... I am totally willing to admit that.

RonHendriks1966 · 09-17-2018, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by H.Abendsen

RICOH already has experience with Android core...

RICOH Theta V... has stepped away from the clunky old RICOH-usual circuitry ... and uses...

guess what... righty right >> StrongARM-Arichitecture(Samsung also uses this CPU Architecture... like most smartphone makers do) ..and ...*drums* *more drums*... Android Core...

Well that Theta android project is done by some guys in California and not the Japanese Ricoh-Imaging people.

reh321 · 09-17-2018, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by H.Abendsen

I am one of those people who would rather love to have an OVF, but why for petes sake, do you think that it would need an EVF???

The comment I was responding to ended

Originally posted by serothis

... I wouldn't mind seeing a Pentax NX2 (mirrorless implication included)

I don't understand why you would ask this question.

Kunzite · 09-17-2018, 01:17 PM

Speaking of which - the worst thing Ricoh Imaging could do would be to attempt "saving" the NX system.
The mount is wrong. With effort you can change about anything except for the mount, because that's what defines the system. Yet the NX mount is way too narrow, about the same opening as the m4/3; which would make it the narrowest of the APS-C mounts, and completely inadequate for FF.
Ricoh Imaging had the good idea - a mirrorless mount with a larger diameter - years before the Z and R were announced. If they'd go MILC they would surely follow it instead of buying other company's problems.
There's also no reason to do it (and I mean, a reason which would make sense to Ricoh Imaging, not so some lost Samsung fan).

Wait, make it the second worst. The worst would be to attempt implementing someone's dream of an "ideal" camera.

H.Abendsen · 09-17-2018, 01:53 PM

Originally posted by RonHendriks1966

Well that Theta android project is done by some guys in California and not the Japanese Ricoh-Imaging people.

?Even if that was true... (and it may be up to some point but you're talking like RICOH actually wouldnt have anything to do with that THETA at all - at least that comes out when someone reads that)
that really ABSOLUTELY NO japanese "Ricoh-Imaging People" would have been involved in:

THETA V design, putting technology together, writing code, making everything work as it should...

LOL which i really doubt... technology, patents, results, findings, code, blueprints, etc.

ALL, i say ALL still lies in the hands of Ricoh-Imaging-Japan and will be used to develop further products...
they would be really, really dumb to give ownership of the THETA idea, patents, code etc. away just because they outsourced some R&D steps...

plz, excuse my disrespect Ron, i know youre a long time member and hardcore pentaxian,
but call me arrogant, I just dont believe that a company with a revenue of app. 2.000trillion yen would be THAT dumb... LMFAO 🤣🤣🤣

Originally posted by Kunzite

Speaking of which - the worst thing Ricoh Imaging could do would be to attempt "saving" the NX system.
The mount is wrong.
Ricoh Imaging had the good idea - a mirrorless mount with a larger diameter - years before the Z and R were announced. If they'd go MILC they would surely follow it instead of buying other company's problems.

If they take something from Samsung it will only be the board and Sensor... but I am sure they will not change the mount.

They love the K-Mount and they just introduced KAF4(55-300 PLM) and
know that their customers love the backwards compatibility of the K-mount and see it as one of the main reasons to not leave the brand.

Hey, I also really hope they keep the camera DSLR-style ...so OVF...
But i also could live with it and have a jolly good time it if it had an EVF...

09-17-2018, 11:33 AM - 6 Likes	#127
mlt Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,159	Apps Originally posted by swanlefitte If pentax would go with apps I hope they have a pentax app store where I can just pay for the apps I want. I would get sudoku to play while I wait for the shot. They need a touchscreen for that. How about an app that simulates a 30 frame per second burst sound just to annoy your friends shooting the other brands

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09-17-2018, 09:33 AM	#121
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Socionext has two processors in their lineup for dslr. Image Signal Processor (Milbeaut®) \| Socionext Inc. No idea wich one is used and wich could be better. Nothing about 4k in this series. Oh this seems to be their 4k processor http://www.socionext.com/en/products/assp/milbeaut/SC2000.html Last edited by RonHendriks1966; 09-17-2018 at 09:41 AM.

09-17-2018, 09:34 AM	#122
CarlJF Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Quebec City Posts: 1,185	Originally posted by normhead The famous, "it won't cost anything argument." Another untestable theory. How would I phrase that. "Pentax could provide these things for nothing but they won't because they are bad people." or "Pentax could do this for almost nothing but they just aren't smart enough." Whatever way you phrase it, it sounds like Pentax is sitting there with a bag of Christmas goodies but are grinching out on us. It sounds like Pentax is Santa at the Xmas parade and he's not throwing any candies your way from his big sack full of candies. If it costs Pentax 50 bucks a camera , it costs me $100 and I'm not wanting to pay even $50 for those options. Pentax's issue with extraneous features that are not of interest to many core users is that development costs are the same as Nikon, Sony and Canon would be, but the R&D costs would have to be spread over a much smaller number of cameras. And I haven't said it would cost anything. I have said it couldn't cost much more, which is different. The idea being that if Pentax change the Socionext processor for the Samsung one they would have to either: 1) completely write the new software from scratch 2) port the old code to the new processor, assuming it's even possible. 3) build upon the Android core code, which already is working and compatible with the Samsung processor. All these options will cost something. My point is that 3 will not necessarily cost more than options 1 or 2. If anything, it could even cost less to develop because parts of the code already exist... Now, the question becomes if for the same price or less you would prefer a camera that offer the possibility to easily add features and function upgrades (now or in the future), or if you would pay more for a camera with a specific, locked firmware without much if any possibility for adding features or upgrades.

09-17-2018, 09:44 AM	#123
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by CarlJF I have said it couldn't cost much more, which is different. The difference between "not much" and "too much" is so subjective it's hard to even respond to such statements. If you came up wth an actual dollar value, then it's easy, everyone can say either "not much" or "too much". Without it the topic is pretty non-specific to the point of merely being irritating.

09-17-2018, 09:57 AM	#124
CarlJF Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Quebec City Posts: 1,185	Originally posted by normhead The difference between "not much" and "too much" is so subjective it's hard to even respond to such statements. If you came up wth an actual dollar value, then it's easy, everyone can say either "not much" or "too much". Without it the topic is pretty non-specific to the point of merely being irritating. Well, if we had any certainty, official statement by RP, or specific knowledge about any of this it would not be a rumor thread anymore...

09-17-2018, 11:07 AM - 1 Like	#125
serothis Veteran Member Join Date: May 2016 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 538	Very intriguing. There are quite a few people on PF that love their NX1s. I wouldn't mind seeing a Pentax NX2 (mirrorless implication included)

09-17-2018, 11:22 AM	#126
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,181	Originally posted by serothis Very intriguing. There are quite a few people on PF that love their NX1s. I wouldn't mind seeing a Pentax NX2 (mirrorless implication included) It would need a EVF and provide a K-mount. There are some people here who will not consider a camera without an OVF - so even with EVF and K-mount, Pentax would disappoint some current users if that were the only camera they announced.

09-17-2018, 11:42 AM - 3 Likes	#128
ThorSanchez Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2012 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,807	Originally posted by reh321 It would need a EVF and provide a K-mount. There are some people here who will not consider a camera without an OVF - so even with EVF and K-mount, Pentax would disappoint some current users if that were the only camera they announced. Some percentage of current users will be disappointed with whatever they release next. They could release a 36 Mp curved sensor APS-C with good ISO down to 102,400 in a body the size of the KP with 20/sec frame rate and better-than-Nikon autofocus and people will complain the ergonomics hurt their hands and the file sizes are too big and the battery life sucks.

09-17-2018, 11:46 AM	#129
MMVIII Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: EU Posts: 1,121	Originally posted by RonHendriks1966 Socionext has two processors in their lineup for dslr. Image Signal Processor (Milbeaut®) \| Socionext Inc. No idea wich one is used and wich could be better. Nothing about 4k in this series. Oh this seems to be their 4k processor Image Signal Processor (Milbeaut®) \| Socionext Inc. Thanks. The SC2000 although seems to for other products, computer vision etc. in action cams. Maybe the Theta... But I guess this demonstrates again the urge for a proper ISP solution, Socionext does not offer anything here for a new generation camera, at least at their website. Maybe also the Accelerator Unit was born out of the development of alternatives inhouse or from other suppliers? Fuji also must have found another source for their processor.

09-17-2018, 11:57 AM	#130
serothis Veteran Member Join Date: May 2016 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 538	Originally posted by reh321 It would need a EVF and provide a K-mount. There are some people here who will not consider a camera without an OVF - so even with EVF and K-mount, Pentax would disappoint some current users if that were the only camera they announced. That horse has been beaten ad nausium. I just like poking the bear. I do hope this rumor is true. That would mean competition in the sensor market. And if the NX1 is any indication Samsung is more than capable of producing a high quality image sensor.

09-17-2018, 12:13 PM	#131
H.Abendsen Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2018 Posts: 95	Originally posted by CarlJF ...would have to... build upon the Android core ... RICOH already has experience with Android core... RICOH Theta V... has stepped away from the clunky old RICOH-usual circuitry ... and uses... guess what... righty right >> StrongARM-Arichitecture(Samsung also uses this CPU Architecture... like most smartphone makers do) ..and ...drums more drums... Android Core... So i guess if they wanted to keep the old ways for their upcoming products, they wouldnt have done that on the RICOH Theta V either... (maybe not in this next upcoming camera but I am pretty sure soon we will have some Android, QNX, or other NiX-embedded system running on the new cameras.) Sony also utilizes some kind of perverted android code in many of their cameras. Originally posted by reh321 It would need a EVF and provide a K-mount. There are some people here who will not consider a camera without an OVF - so even with EVF and K-mount, Pentax would disappoint some current users if that were the only camera they announced. I am one of those people who would rather love to have an OVF, but why for petes sake, do you think that it would need an EVF??? From a technical point of view, there should not be a problem utilizing the Sensor from this MILC(Samsung NX1) in a DSLR Doing this would just give you "really fast and reliable Autofocus" in Live-View Mode (compared to former PENTAX DSLRs) because it has good On-Sensor-AF-Technology...(209 AF Points) Everything else would stay the same like on a normal DSLR... ...mirror ->mirror-> AF-module (hopefully with app. 50-100 widespread focus points.) . And maybe it is even possible to also utilize the on-Sensor-AF tech when shootin "normal"(looking thru the OVF) - by placing semi-transparent spots... (like the semi-transparent area in the middle for the lightflow to the AF-mirror which reflects to the module on the bottom) ...in the actual(flipping) mirror at the right positions, so on-Sensor AF could react when not in Live-View (That might work with all lenses that offer F:2.8 or F:4 i guess.) I am really no technician but a bit of a tinkerer and I am pretty sure thats kinda doable, for a company* that builds cameras since nearly 100 years that now lives within(or melted with) a tech giant corporation who produces "wedunnowhat super-complicated technological products" like automated quality control units, huge industry 3D-printers, beamers, dunnowhatelse.. for the industry(Ricoh) But thats "high hopes" of course... I am totally willing to admit that.

09-17-2018, 12:22 PM	#132
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by H.Abendsen RICOH already has experience with Android core... RICOH Theta V... has stepped away from the clunky old RICOH-usual circuitry ... and uses... guess what... righty right >> StrongARM-Arichitecture(Samsung also uses this CPU Architecture... like most smartphone makers do) ..and ...drums more drums... Android Core... Well that Theta android project is done by some guys in California and not the Japanese Ricoh-Imaging people.

09-17-2018, 12:38 PM	#133
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,181	Originally posted by H.Abendsen I am one of those people who would rather love to have an OVF, but why for petes sake, do you think that it would need an EVF??? The comment I was responding to ended Originally posted by serothis ... I wouldn't mind seeing a Pentax NX2 (mirrorless implication included) I don't understand why you would ask this question.

09-17-2018, 01:17 PM	#134
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Speaking of which - the worst thing Ricoh Imaging could do would be to attempt "saving" the NX system. The mount is wrong. With effort you can change about anything except for the mount, because that's what defines the system. Yet the NX mount is way too narrow, about the same opening as the m4/3; which would make it the narrowest of the APS-C mounts, and completely inadequate for FF. Ricoh Imaging had the good idea - a mirrorless mount with a larger diameter - years before the Z and R were announced. If they'd go MILC they would surely follow it instead of buying other company's problems. There's also no reason to do it (and I mean, a reason which would make sense to Ricoh Imaging, not so some lost Samsung fan). Wait, make it the second worst. The worst would be to attempt implementing someone's dream of an "ideal" camera.

09-17-2018, 01:53 PM	#135
H.Abendsen Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2018 Posts: 95	Originally posted by RonHendriks1966 Well that Theta android project is done by some guys in California and not the Japanese Ricoh-Imaging people. ?Even if that was true... (and it may be up to some point but you're talking like RICOH actually wouldnt have anything to do with that THETA at all - at least that comes out when someone reads that) that really ABSOLUTELY NO japanese "Ricoh-Imaging People" would have been involved in: THETA V design, putting technology together, writing code, making everything work as it should... LOL which i really doubt... technology, patents, results, findings, code, blueprints, etc. ALL, i say ALL still lies in the hands of Ricoh-Imaging-Japan and will be used to develop further products... they would be really, really dumb to give ownership of the THETA idea, patents, code etc. away just because they outsourced some R&D steps... plz, excuse my disrespect Ron, i know youre a long time member and hardcore pentaxian, but call me arrogant, I just dont believe that a company with a revenue of app. 2.000trillion yen would be THAT dumb... LMFAO 🤣🤣🤣 Originally posted by Kunzite Speaking of which - the worst thing Ricoh Imaging could do would be to attempt "saving" the NX system. The mount is wrong. Ricoh Imaging had the good idea - a mirrorless mount with a larger diameter - years before the Z and R were announced. If they'd go MILC they would surely follow it instead of buying other company's problems. If they take something from Samsung it will only be the board and Sensor... but I am sure they will not change the mount. They love the K-Mount and they just introduced KAF4(55-300 PLM) and know that their customers love the backwards compatibility of the K-mount and see it as one of the main reasons to not leave the brand. Hey, I also really hope they keep the camera DSLR-style ...so OVF... But i also could live with it and have a jolly good time it if it had an EVF...