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09-27-2008, 02:33 PM   #31
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Am I reading this right? The $200 50/1.4 is gone from the roadmap, to be replaced with an $800 55/1.4?

Prog.

09-27-2008, 02:48 PM   #32
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the roadmap only has DA lenses
09-27-2008, 03:03 PM   #33
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I wish somebody had kissed me first...

QuoteOriginally posted by Prognathous Quote
Am I reading this right? The $200 50/1.4 is gone from the roadmap, to be replaced with an $800 55/1.4?

Prog.

And is anybody surprised? No profit in churning out good lenses for legacy cameras... better to build new lenses and force a lot of folks into new bodies to use them.

You say you have a really good camera manufactured just 18 months ago and you don't want, or can't afford, a new K-M or K200, but you think you should have access to new lenses just like the big kids? That you are one of the loyal K100 or *ist users out here who might want to use the new 55mm or 17-70, or some such new lens, but instead you've got a really crummy Hobson's choice? And now you feel like somebody should have kissed you first, bunky?

So while we're all getting gee-whizzed about new lenses and full frame bodies, a moment of silence for the passing of the honorable Pentax marketing pitch that every SLR Pentax lens ever made works on every Pentax camera. It's been replaced with new truth-in-advertising slogan: every Pentax SLR lens ever made fits every Pentax SLR camera... they just don't work so good sometimes.

And just as some of y'all are shaking your heads and muttering that I just don't get it, and what's wrong with manual focus anyway that makes me so cranky? Or maybe that all I have to do is pony up for a new camera body or shut up about it... let's talk after the planned technical obsolescence kicks y'all in the wallet and folks who bought the K200 and K20 based systems are out in the cold .

And I still like my Pentax camera. I just wish Pentax liked folks like me as much.

Caveat emptor, bunky,
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09-27-2008, 03:11 PM   #34
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Well, a lot of respected long time pentax users have switched to Nikon quietly in a good way. We are customers. We have choices.

09-27-2008, 03:22 PM   #35
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Yeah I'm behaving badly, so?

QuoteOriginally posted by roentarre Quote
Well, a lot of respected long time pentax users have switched to Nikon quietly in a good way. We are customers. We have choices.
Thanks for the thought, but while you may still be a "customer" my discretionary funds are tied up in this stuff and right now and I can't be a customer for anything else in a good, or poor, way. So Pentax can paddle its free market canoe up somebody else's stream.

As my dear departed Daddy once said, nobody ever gets footprints on their chest who wasn't lying down first.
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09-27-2008, 04:17 PM   #36
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There are some people here (Pal comes to mind) that honnestly believe that since they bought some Pentax gear in 198x then Pentax should oblige in making them (him?!) new camera/other gear to use that. Others think that the struggle for progress Pentax tries half hearted anyway compared to others is way too much. I say to those people:

- you can still buy a lot of FA lenses (35 and 50 among the least expensive);
- if you have an older than K100DS camera the chances to afford a lens like DA*55 are slim and for sure this would be a major waste to put it on a 6MP sensor camera anyway;
- we pentaxians are proud with our MF legacy lenses, most of us have or had some of those so you can keep on using SDM lenses this way if needed;
- think about Oly who changed the mount to 4/3 for a fresh start into digital age only to change it again for some of its lenses to micro4/3;
- think that Nikon cut mercylessly ALL shaft driven AF lenses in its entry level cameras from 2006 by removing the in-body motors. They still have loads of older lenses usable only in MF on those cameras without a motorised counterpart at any price range;
- we still have lots of modern digital lenses that are at least dual driven and only 2 (two) who are exclusivelly SDM driven;
- like was previously suggested you can move to greener pastures anytime;
- I see no carburetor cars being made by any car maker today (in fact for a looooonggg time) although I am sure some folks may have some spare parts at home for those.

This of course is only my opinion, I am sure not very popular among some people.

Radu
09-27-2008, 05:16 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by FHPhotographer Quote

...
So while we're all getting gee-whizzed about new lenses and full frame bodies, a moment of silence for the passing of the honorable Pentax marketing pitch that every SLR Pentax lens ever made works on every Pentax camera. It's been replaced with new truth-in-advertising slogan: every Pentax SLR lens ever made fits every Pentax SLR camera... they just don't work so good sometimes.
All Pentax cameras are backward compatible, that makes Pentax's claim valid with regards to lens use. One can still use any Pentax K-mount (or M42 lens with adapter) but with varying degrees of usability.

As technology doesn't stand still, every new crop of cameras will have newer technical improvements or features included. No camera manufacturer can guarantee forward compatibility for all their products. Should be pretty obvious to all.

QuoteOriginally posted by FHPhotographer Quote
...Or maybe that all I have to do is pony up for a new camera body or shut up about it... let's talk after the planned technical obsolescence kicks y'all in the wallet and folks who bought the K200 and K20 based systems are out in the cold .

Caveat emptor, bunky,
FHPhotographer
Planned technical obsolescence? With technological improvements, manufacturers will build better performing cameras with more features cheaper and quicker. It's absurd to believe that the K20D or any other camera won't be improved upon.
09-27-2008, 05:32 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
There are some people here (Pal comes to mind) that honnestly believe that since they bought some Pentax gear in 198x then Pentax should oblige in making them (him?!) new camera/other gear to use that. Others think that the struggle for progress Pentax tries half hearted anyway compared to others is way too much. I say to those people:

- you can still buy a lot of FA lenses (35 and 50 among the least expensive);
- if you have an older than K100DS camera the chances to afford a lens like DA*55 are slim and for sure this would be a major waste to put it on a 6MP sensor camera anyway;
- we pentaxians are proud with our MF legacy lenses, most of us have or had some of those so you can keep on using SDM lenses this way if needed;
- think about Oly who changed the mount to 4/3 for a fresh start into digital age only to change it again for some of its lenses to micro4/3;
- think that Nikon cut mercylessly ALL shaft driven AF lenses in its entry level cameras from 2006 by removing the in-body motors. They still have loads of older lenses usable only in MF on those cameras without a motorised counterpart at any price range;
- we still have lots of modern digital lenses that are at least dual driven and only 2 (two) who are exclusivelly SDM driven;
- like was previously suggested you can move to greener pastures anytime;
- I see no carburetor cars being made by any car maker today (in fact for a looooonggg time) although I am sure some folks may have some spare parts at home for those.

This of course is only my opinion, I am sure not very popular among some people.

Radu
Popularity has little to do with it, but wrong thinking does.
One, FA lenses will gradually be phased out, or did you simply not read my post? It isn't about what FA lenses are available, it's what the new lenses mean to folks with older Pentax bodies.
Two, you're kidding, right? You think everybody who has a K100 is so impovrished they can't afford a 55mm SDM lens? Straighten out and fly right, son, it ain't about "can't afford" as much as "won't afford." And what makes you think a 10mp sensor, with smaller photosites, can use a SDM lens but a 6mp sensor can't? Study up before posting.
Three, pride goeth before a fall and a haughty spirit before destructiion.
Four and Fve, who cares what Olympus and Nikon do?
Six, only two SDM lenses now? The 16-50 and 17-70 and the 50-135 are SDM; the new 55mm is SDM, the new 16-250 is SDM... this is like a battle of wits with the unarmed.
Seven, great response, if you don't like it, leave...that's what Hobson's choice is all about, look it up.
Eight, what do "carburetor cars" have to do with a discussion of Pentax lenses? If you're going to use analogy argument, at least pick a good one and make if work for you.
Next?

09-27-2008, 07:16 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by FHPhotographer Quote
Six, only two SDM lenses now? The 16-50 and 17-70 and the 50-135 are SDM; the new 55mm is SDM, the new 16-250 is SDM... this is like a battle of wits with the unarmed.
I think he was saying that only two lenses work SOLELY with SDM (17-70 and 55). The rest all work with the usual screw drive as well on non-SDM cameras.
09-27-2008, 07:18 PM   #40
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The 16-50, the 50-135, and the 60-250 are both SDM and screw drive which means they will all autofocus on your body. the 55 and the 17-70 are only SDM but they are the only two that are only SDM.

I know this statement is going to piss you off, but you're argument is pretty similar to someone who has a manual focus body complaining that they developed autofocus.

I don't really understand why pentax didn't put the power zoom contacts on all of their bodies which would have made this issue non-existent because then a firmware update would have made it possible to use SDM on those bodies as well.
09-27-2008, 07:44 PM   #41
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thanks for the correction....

QuoteOriginally posted by mk07138 Quote
The 16-50, the 50-135, and the 60-250 are both SDM and screw drive which means they will all autofocus on your body. the 55 and the 17-70 are only SDM but they are the only two that are only SDM.

I know this statement is going to piss you off, but you're argument is pretty similar to someone who has a manual focus body complaining that they developed autofocus.

I don't really understand why pentax didn't put the power zoom contacts on all of their bodies which would have made this issue non-existent because then a firmware update would have made it possible to use SDM on those bodies as well.
Ah, my mistake, I thought they were all SDM-only without the screw drive. Thanks for correcting me.

However, that doesn't change my assertion that Pentax has written off owners of older Pentax bodies -- if you consider a camera introduced two years ago as "old." It wasn't part of the implicit "contract" I believed was in force when I bought into a Pentax system in 2007: a new camera that would have full functionality when new lenses came along. I may have been naive, but this calculated market move is not what I expected from a company with the Pentax brand loyalty and reputation.

Now we may disagree about how fast FA lenses will go away, or how soon technology will be used as a jusitifcation for exerting market pressure, but when all is said and done, can you really envision that Pentax/Hoya will add screw drive to future lenses for the (unknown) thousands of owners of legacy bodies...or is more likely that they will continue follow the profit motive toward the more expensive SDM lenses that require a body upgrade for full application? And no matter how you dance between the raindrops, that means they're writing off everybody who doesn't choose to buy into the corporate upgrade game.

FHPhotog
09-27-2008, 07:58 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Prognathous Quote
Am I reading this right? The $200 50/1.4 is gone from the roadmap, to be replaced with an $800 55/1.4?

Prog.
DEVELOPMENT LENSES ROADMAP means the information of DA lenses which already made or will be made in the future. It's about only DA or DA* lenses.
09-27-2008, 08:03 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by FHPhotographer Quote
Now we may disagree about how fast FA lenses will go away, or how soon technology will be used as a jusitifcation for exerting market pressure, but when all is said and done, can you really envision that Pentax/Hoya will add screw drive to future lenses for the (unknown) thousands of owners of legacy bodies...or is more likely that they will continue follow the profit motive toward the more expensive SDM lenses that require a body upgrade for full application? And no matter how you dance between the raindrops, that means they're writing off everybody who doesn't choose to buy into the corporate upgrade game.
Pentax were alredy nice enough to include the inferior screw+SDM on all the DA* lenses up to now (and the new 60-250 as well) to support all the *ist Digitals and K100D. Forwards compatibility is never guaranteed. the SDM-only lenses are the 17-70 and the unreleased 55 1.4 and it's not like there are absolutely no alternatives to these lenses.

built-in lens motors are faster and quieter. pentax are not going to stop progress just so you can "consider" purchasing these lenses, especially other new buyers who may see the screw drive AF as a turnoff.

can't see what you're whining about. out of all the major brands, Pentax has done the best job in maintaining backwards compatibility.
09-27-2008, 08:10 PM   #44
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You don't really believe this, do you?

QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
All Pentax cameras are backward compatible, that makes Pentax's claim valid with regards to lens use. One can still use any Pentax K-mount (or M42 lens with adapter) but with varying degrees of usability.

As technology doesn't stand still, every new crop of cameras will have newer technical improvements or features included. No camera manufacturer can guarantee forward compatibility for all their products. Should be pretty obvious to all.

Planned technical obsolescence? With technological improvements, manufacturers will build better performing cameras with more features cheaper and quicker. It's absurd to believe that the K20D or any other camera won't be improved upon.
Oh, and you think Pentax makes it clear to a reasonable person that the system has backward compatability but not forward? That they don't know, say a year in advance, that they're going to abandon part of the legacy market? That means you knew that new lenses might be "crippled" on your older camera? If you did and bought anyway, you saw information I didn't and made a reasoned choice; if not, then you were snookered just like me.

Just go to the official corporate website and look at the description of lens compatability Pentax Imaging - Lens Compatability Chart and show me where it says that there might be limited functionality with Pentax lenses with a K-body camera.

Of course technology doesn't stand still, but are you really going to make an argument for an untested $800 55mm f/1.4 SDM lens versus a $200 50mm f/1.4 lens that has a track record of excecllence? Based on what, it's quieter and auto focuses milliseconds faster? This is your "cheaper and quicker" path to better cameras?

Come on now, it's one thing to defend the brand, it's another to close your eyes and believe it when they tell you that wet feeling in your ear is just the warm wind of technological improvement. When's the last time you believed it when somebody said trust me, this is for your good... and you accepted it?
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09-27-2008, 08:27 PM   #45
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Response to K100d...

QuoteOriginally posted by k100d Quote
Pentax were alredy nice enough to include the inferior screw+SDM on all the DA* lenses up to now (and the new 60-250 as well) to support all the *ist Digitals and K100D. Forwards compatibility is never guaranteed. the SDM-only lenses are the 17-70 and the unreleased 55 1.4 and it's not like there are absolutely no alternatives to these lenses.

built-in lens motors are faster and quieter. pentax are not going to stop progress just so you can "consider" purchasing these lenses, especially other new buyers who may see the screw drive AF as a turnoff.

can't see what you're whining about. out of all the major brands, Pentax has done the best job in maintaining backwards compatibility.
And you know that screw driven lenses are "inferior" based on what? How many SDM lenses are you running on your K100? And you know that new buyers consider screw-drive a "turn off" how? Where do you people come up with this stuff? I wish you had been around back in the day when I was selling used cars.

As an aside, I find it odd that folks you can't defend their position resort to leveling personal criticism like "whining" at anyone who disagrees with their preconceived notions or the delivered corporate wisdom.

Furthermore, I don't care than Pentax has done the "best job" of backward compatibility; and I suspect there are others in Pentax-land who also don't give a tinker's dam about how their "new" cameras work with a 30-year-old manual focus lens. You want to buy old, used, equipment, go right ahead; but don't try and defend excluding a bunch of us from new lens technology on that predilection.
FHPhotog
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