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09-27-2008, 08:42 PM   #46
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QuoteQuote:
As an aside, I find it odd that folks you can't defend their position resort to leveling personal criticism like "whining" at anyone who disagrees with their preconceived notions or the delivered corporate wisdom.
to be honest, i don't know how else to describe it, you really are annoying. you are already quite whiny with your "my FA zoom is better than the FA77 taking a picture of a cactus at F8 and therefore it is a better lens in all respects" thread and now this.

QuoteQuote:
Oh, and you think Pentax makes it clear to a reasonable person that the system has backward compatability but not forward? That they don't know, say a year in advance, that they're going to abandon part of the legacy market? That means you knew that new lenses might be "crippled" on your older camera? If you did and bought anyway, you saw information I didn't and made a reasoned choice; if not, then you were snookered just like me.

...

Of course technology doesn't stand still, but are you really going to make an argument for an untested $800 55mm f/1.4 SDM lens versus a $200 50mm f/1.4 lens that has a track record of excecllence? Based on what, it's quieter and auto focuses milliseconds faster? This is your "cheaper and quicker" path to better cameras?
if pentax suddenly stopped making any lenses that supported my old camera then i would be pissed. but they haven't. as of right now, there are only two lenses that your body won't autofocus on:
1. the unreleased 55 1.4 which you have already said was overpriced. and on that point, the 50 1.4 hasn't even been discontinued yet, why are you complaining about that too?
2. the 17-70 for which there is a sigma equivalent

and on the roadmap, the next lens that probably won't work is the DA*30 for which there are also alternatives available.

QuoteQuote:
Just go to the official corporate website and look at the description of lens compatability Pentax Imaging - Lens Compatability Chart and show me where it says that there might be limited functionality with Pentax lenses with a K-body camera.
the chart you referenced hasn't been updated to show the K Digital SLRs or the newer lenses.

QuoteQuote:
Come on now, it's one thing to defend the brand, it's another to close your eyes and believe it when they tell you that wet feeling in your ear is just the warm wind of technological improvement. When's the last time you believed it when somebody said trust me, this is for your good... and you accepted it?
what does this have to do with anything?

QuoteQuote:
And you know that screw driven lenses are "inferior" based on what? How many SDM lenses are you running on your K100? And you know that new buyers consider screw-drive a "turn off" how? Where do you people come up with this stuff? I wish you had been around back in the day when I was selling used cars.
this is just your ignorance. ring-type built-in motors are faster and quieter. most of the new hihg-grade glass from all of the other brands use built-in ring type motors.

QuoteQuote:
Furthermore, I don't care than Pentax has done the "best job" of backward compatibility; and I suspect there are others in Pentax-land who also don't give a tinker's dam about how their "new" cameras work with a 30-year-old manual focus lens. You want to buy old, used, equipment, go right ahead; but don't try and defend excluding a bunch of us from new lens technology on that predilection.
a lot of users do care about backwards compatibility and pentax is putting out new technology that you don't seem to agree with. so are you for or against new technolgy?


Last edited by k100d; 09-27-2008 at 08:59 PM.
09-27-2008, 09:29 PM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by FHPhotographer Quote
Of course technology doesn't stand still, but are you really going to make an argument for an untested $800 55mm f/1.4 SDM lens versus a $200 50mm f/1.4 lens that has a track record of excecllence? Based on what, it's quieter and auto focuses milliseconds faster? This is your "cheaper and quicker" path to better cameras?
It's also weather-sealed, which is a big deal to me.

And no way it's actually going to be $800.
09-27-2008, 10:03 PM   #48
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I say around 400-500 for the 55mm f/1.4, but we'll just have to wait and see, no point in arguing about it (/me looking at the FA 50mm f/1.4 in his photo bag which is about to be used in a couple of minutes).

PS: Also SDM+screw -> 200mm f/2.8 and 300mm f/4, guess somebody forgot those.
09-27-2008, 10:30 PM   #49
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FWIW, the K100d Super was released in June of 2007. A major feature of that camera was support for SDM lenses. At that time, I thought it was pretty obvious that Pentax was moving toward the SDM mechanism; I never saw any reason that Pentax would indefinitely continue supporting multiple autofocus mechanisms in their lenses. So, there's the writing on the wall more than a year ahead of time.

Furthermore, even if I couldn't use the SDM lenses, I'd be glad for Pentax to build its customer base by selling SDM lenses and compatible bodies. Why? Because that makes all of my old lenses more valuable. I absolutely love the K-m because it will bring more Pentaxians onto eBay looking for Pentax-A 50mm f/1.7 lenses. That turns my previous expenses on lenses into investments. On the other hand, if Pentax bodies cost significantly more than competitive bodies, market share would decline. If Pentax folded, my KA lenses would decline sharply in market value.

SDM lenses, beyond the advantages of ring motors, take advantage of electronics: moving electrons around is far cheaper than moving metal around. With today's technology it makes far more sense for a computer to tell a motor in the lens, optimized for that specific lens, how to focus than for a computer to tell a motor to focus a lens--with that motor being generic to all lenses (and all lenses that the manufacturer wants to be future-compatible with). There is a redundancy of motors, but when it comes to $1000 lenses a $1 redundancy is negligible compared to focusing a 40mm pancake with a motor designed to turn a 300mm hunk of glass. Not only that, but when I'm spending big bucks on lenses, I *want* redundancy: if the motor in my 50mm fries, I've still got my 35mm and my 135mm, for example. ...I'm digressing, I suppose.

Point being, I like the SDM technology; I'm glad Pentax is moving toward it; I'm glad that Pentax is ditching legacy technology when the old stuff was dramatically inferior; and, frankly, I'm pleased as punch with the extraordinary level of compatibility between today's lenses and those of 33 years ago, when the k-mount was introduced, not to mention M42 lenses from 59 years ago.

I'm excited for Pentax's future. I bought my camera knowing its current capabilities, and being willing to live with that. But my hope is that my future purchases will be backwards compatible with my current kit, and everything I hear from Pentax, including the roadmap with its SDM-only lenses, bolsters that hope.

09-27-2008, 11:23 PM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
DEVELOPMENT LENSES ROADMAP means the information of DA lenses which already made or will be made in the future. It's about only DA or DA* lenses.
If I recall, previous revisions of the roadmap did include FA lenses too. It seems Pentax is simply discontinuing them, quietly.

Prog.
09-27-2008, 11:32 PM   #51
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The end of discourse...

QuoteOriginally posted by k100d Quote
to be honest, i don't know how else to describe it, you really are annoying.
Look, I don't have an issue with you, but because we differ does not justify personal attack. I suggest you chill out with a good book, maybe one that explains argumentum ad hominem. You need the education.

Also, if you want to see how a reasoned, and reasonable, post is structured without resorting to vituperation, take a look at JonPB's above ; that's how it's done out here where the adults are.

I will have no further discourse with you.

FHPhotographer
09-27-2008, 11:44 PM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by FHPhotographer Quote
Oh, and you think Pentax makes it clear to a reasonable person that the system has backward compatability but not forward? That they don't know, say a year in advance, that they're going to abandon part of the legacy market? That means you knew that new lenses might be "crippled" on your older camera? If you did and bought anyway, you saw information I didn't and made a reasoned choice; if not, then you were snookered just like me.
As I mentioned, no camera maker can guarantee forward compatibility nor can they definitely predict with certainty how their future products will actually turn out (subject to competition, tech improvements, market trends, etc.). This should be a pretty obvious fact. I can't speak about your opinion about this. No I don't believe I was snookered at all.

QuoteOriginally posted by FHPhotographer Quote
Just go to the official corporate website and look at the description of lens compatability Pentax Imaging - Lens Compatability Chart and show me where it says that there might be limited functionality with Pentax lenses with a K-body camera.
This should be pretty obvious. It is clearly stated in the Operating Manual of your DSLR. The limits of functionality with different legacy lenses are quite clearly indicated.

QuoteOriginally posted by FHPhotographer Quote
Of course technology doesn't stand still, but are you really going to make an argument for an untested $800 55mm f/1.4 SDM lens versus a $200 50mm f/1.4 lens that has a track record of excecllence? Based on what, it's quieter and auto focuses milliseconds faster? This is your "cheaper and quicker" path to better cameras?

Come on now, it's one thing to defend the brand, it's another to close your eyes and believe it when they tell you that wet feeling in your ear is just the warm wind of technological improvement. When's the last time you believed it when somebody said trust me, this is for your good... and you accepted it?
FHPhotog
Nobody is or needs to defend Pentax here. Pentax have their reasons to introduce the DA* 55mm and it is a business/technical decision to make it SDM only. You're making an assumption the two lenses are similar or comparable, which might or might not be the case. At any rate nobody is forcing you to buy the DA* 55mm. Is it so difficult to accept the fact that your K100D is already a discontinued product. It never had SDM support, so why fault Pentax on this. Get over it.
09-28-2008, 12:52 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Is it so difficult to accept the fact that your K100D is already a discontinued product. It never had SDM support, so why fault Pentax on this. Get over it.
Well in fact if Pentax did a mistake, it is a real big one IMO. One should open a K100D and a K100D Super. It'd be surprised if there was in real difference besides firmware and the two contacts on the mount. It may be possible to hack a K100D in to a Super one.

09-28-2008, 01:39 AM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by FHPhotographer Quote
Popularity has little to do with it, but wrong thinking does.
One, FA lenses will gradually be phased out, or did you simply not read my post? It isn't about what FA lenses are available, it's what the new lenses mean to folks with older Pentax bodies.
Two, you're kidding, right? You think everybody who has a K100 is so impovrished they can't afford a 55mm SDM lens? Straighten out and fly right, son, it ain't about "can't afford" as much as "won't afford." And what makes you think a 10mp sensor, with smaller photosites, can use a SDM lens but a 6mp sensor can't? Study up before posting.
Three, pride goeth before a fall and a haughty spirit before destructiion.
Four and Fve, who cares what Olympus and Nikon do?
Six, only two SDM lenses now? The 16-50 and 17-70 and the 50-135 are SDM; the new 55mm is SDM, the new 16-250 is SDM... this is like a battle of wits with the unarmed.
Seven, great response, if you don't like it, leave...that's what Hobson's choice is all about, look it up.
Eight, what do "carburetor cars" have to do with a discussion of Pentax lenses? If you're going to use analogy argument, at least pick a good one and make if work for you.
Next?
QuoteOriginally posted by FHPhotographer Quote
Ah, my mistake, I thought they were all SDM-only without the screw drive. Thanks for correcting me.

However, that doesn't change my assertion that Pentax has written off owners of older Pentax bodies -- if you consider a camera introduced two years ago as "old." It wasn't part of the implicit "contract" I believed was in force when I bought into a Pentax system in 2007: a new camera that would have full functionality when new lenses came along. I may have been naive, but this calculated market move is not what I expected from a company with the Pentax brand loyalty and reputation.

Now we may disagree about how fast FA lenses will go away, or how soon technology will be used as a jusitifcation for exerting market pressure, but when all is said and done, can you really envision that Pentax/Hoya will add screw drive to future lenses for the (unknown) thousands of owners of legacy bodies...or is more likely that they will continue follow the profit motive toward the more expensive SDM lenses that require a body upgrade for full application? And no matter how you dance between the raindrops, that means they're writing off everybody who doesn't choose to buy into the corporate upgrade game.

FHPhotog
QuoteOriginally posted by FHPhotographer Quote
Oh, and you think Pentax makes it clear to a reasonable person that the system has backward compatability but not forward? That they don't know, say a year in advance, that they're going to abandon part of the legacy market? That means you knew that new lenses might be "crippled" on your older camera? If you did and bought anyway, you saw information I didn't and made a reasoned choice; if not, then you were snookered just like me.

Just go to the official corporate website and look at the description of lens compatability Pentax Imaging - Lens Compatability Chart and show me where it says that there might be limited functionality with Pentax lenses with a K-body camera.

Of course technology doesn't stand still, but are you really going to make an argument for an untested $800 55mm f/1.4 SDM lens versus a $200 50mm f/1.4 lens that has a track record of excecllence? Based on what, it's quieter and auto focuses milliseconds faster? This is your "cheaper and quicker" path to better cameras?

Come on now, it's one thing to defend the brand, it's another to close your eyes and believe it when they tell you that wet feeling in your ear is just the warm wind of technological improvement. When's the last time you believed it when somebody said trust me, this is for your good... and you accepted it?
FHPhotog
QuoteOriginally posted by FHPhotographer Quote
And you know that screw driven lenses are "inferior" based on what? How many SDM lenses are you running on your K100? And you know that new buyers consider screw-drive a "turn off" how? Where do you people come up with this stuff? I wish you had been around back in the day when I was selling used cars.

As an aside, I find it odd that folks you can't defend their position resort to leveling personal criticism like "whining" at anyone who disagrees with their preconceived notions or the delivered corporate wisdom.

Furthermore, I don't care than Pentax has done the "best job" of backward compatibility; and I suspect there are others in Pentax-land who also don't give a tinker's dam about how their "new" cameras work with a 30-year-old manual focus lens. You want to buy old, used, equipment, go right ahead; but don't try and defend excluding a bunch of us from new lens technology on that predilection.
FHPhotog
QuoteOriginally posted by FHPhotographer Quote
Look, I don't have an issue with you, but because we differ does not justify personal attack. I suggest you chill out with a good book, maybe one that explains argumentum ad hominem. You need the education.

Also, if you want to see how a reasoned, and reasonable, post is structured without resorting to vituperation, take a look at JonPB's above ; that's how it's done out here where the adults are.

I will have no further discourse with you.

FHPhotographer
Well,

It was night in this part of the world so I had better things to do other than nurse your neurosis. Anyway you may want to peruse the quotes above before asking other people to learn more, get an education or not make personal attacks.
I know that the language barrier between us exists, I also know that's a minor obstacle compared to the differences in IQ, common sense and knowledge about what means Pentax today and what its products are. I was going to let you guess in who's favor this difference is but I am afraid that you won't realize so I must be pretty forward and say you're a s*u*i*d m*r*n and more agravating a rude, persistent and agresive one.
Again, let me put it as simple as possible in the futile hope that you may understand:

- FA lenses never were on the roadmap. You may confuse them with the two DFA lenses - understandable after all your wrote I may add;
- Even if the FA lenses were discontinued there will be still stocks and a large market for used ones. I emphasis that there is no official word from Pentax that may happen and FA50 is widely available;
- There are only 2 (two) lenses that are SDM only and on the market as of today only one is available;
- preserving backward compatibility in this case will only add to the weight and price so what you "won't afford , yeah, sure" today would become even more "won't affordable to you". Plus I bet it never crossed your mind that for let's say 5-10% of the customers who may want to use shaft AF the rest of us that use SDM will pay on every lens with price and weight penalty;
- of course the DA* 55 will function on a 6 Mp sensor I only said it would be a "waste" considering the expected performance to be relegated to such a low res sensor.

I've wasted too much time with you already have a nice life! Even better, have a life!

Radu
09-28-2008, 02:48 AM   #55
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Pentax has no 10 mm wide-angle lens. No anything wider.
12-24 is 18-36 mm. Olympus has 7-14/4 for 4/3.

At least remake of Tokina 11-16/2.8 could be not bad move...
09-28-2008, 06:35 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by FHPhotographer Quote
Look, I don't have an issue with you, but because we differ does not justify personal attack. I suggest you chill out with a good book, maybe one that explains argumentum ad hominem. You need the education.

Also, if you want to see how a reasoned, and reasonable, post is structured without resorting to vituperation, take a look at JonPB's above ; that's how it's done out here where the adults are.

I will have no further discourse with you.

FHPhotographer
You need to chill yourself, too.

Anyway, no company can ever guarantee forward compatibility. It's just not possible.

Even if the K100D is only a couple of years old, that's probably the same argument manual-focus SLR users had when makers started adding AF to their SLRs. It's even probably worse for Canon FD mount users who got stranded when Canon went EOS and not even making it possible to mount FD lenses to the new mount. But people eventually accepted it as it is. Heck, Canon's is at, or running for, number one in the camera market today.

Sure, the DA* 55 wouldn't autofocus on the K100D, but at least everything else still works with the combo.

If you want to blame Pentax for anything, the only logical thing I could point to would be that Pentax could've offered a deal for existing K100D users to upgrade their cameras to be K100D Supers for the cost of only whatever it is they put in there to make SDM work (probably firmware and a chip).

Otherwise, Pentax is doing what any other company would have done in their place. The annals of camera history is filled with such tales of "treachery".

That I can still get a K or M lens to work with any old or current Pentax SLR/DSLR is a blessing in itself.

In any case, one could always vote with their wallets. You sure won't buy a DA* 55 from its lack of AF on your camera, so that's one less unit sold for Hoya, and it will reflect on their bottom line and reports, much more so since high-end lenses move less units that consumer lenses.

Or, for the price of the DA* lens, you can try out other brands, see if it's to your liking.
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