[sbh]

Ironic that they have moved to an annual schedule at a time when changes will occur less often.

At first I had the same thought. But taking a closer look, Photokina is not only about camera hardware. It's core is about the "Imaging" business. Like most others, the imaging industry is also moving faster. A major part of Photokina was stuff like industrial printing machines, paper manufacturers, drones, lighting, services like book-printing, software, as well as keynotes and workshops around business models, innovations and start-ups including awards for the best start-ups and so on.

[Rondec]

I think the KP is the K3 II sequel -- for now. That doesn't mean that Pentax won't release another, higher end APS-C camera next year, but for the better part of year, that camera won't exist and the KP will be the highest end APS-C camera Pentax has.

For Pentax faithful, the KP actually isn't bad. It focuses on size, which has been an important thing for Pentax and doesn't do much with things like frame rates and video. But it turns out that you need higher end specifications to sell cameras -- or a really low price and the KP didn't really have either. I think right now Pentax is doing an evaluation of what things they will need to start to include going forward in order to make certain their camera sales are adequate.

[superdave]

But it turns out that you need higher end specifications to sell cameras -- or a really low price and the KP didn't really have either. I think right now Pentax is doing an evaluation of what things they will need to start to include going forward in order to make certain their camera sales are adequate.

Sure, the K-7/K-5/K-3 series success is because they had both fair price and good specs. They is a gap in IQ between K-5 and K-7, and they is a gap in everything between the K-5 and K-3.

I hope the K-3II sequel will have equal or better specs in everything and will keep the same price than K-3 at launch. I am not interested in a $2000 flagship as good as it could be. If the price need to increase a lot because of awesome specs, I hope they will make a K-2 AND a K-3III ;-)

[ThorSanchez]

I think the KP is the K3 II sequel -- for now. That doesn't mean that Pentax won't release another, higher end APS-C camera next year, but for the better part of year, that camera won't exist and the KP will be the highest end APS-C camera Pentax has.

For Pentax faithful, the KP actually isn't bad. It focuses on size, which has been an important thing for Pentax and doesn't do much with things like frame rates and video. But it turns out that you need higher end specifications to sell cameras -- or a really low price and the KP didn't really have either. I think right now Pentax is doing an evaluation of what things they will need to start to include going forward in order to make certain their camera sales are adequate.

Right, a product has to differentiate itself to sell. In today's environment a good, mid-range Pentax that's almost as small as a mirrorless body is only going to appeal to people who already shoot Pentax. There was little there to make someone who is brand agnostic say "yes, that's the feature that makes me buy Pentax!"

In 2012 I knew nothing about "good" cameras, and I ended up with Pentax because of the value of the feature set. If I were in the same situation today I would probably end up with a Fuji or a Sony. Pentax still makes good equipment, but they have to differentiate themselves and give people a reason to pick their stuff.

---------- Post added 10-02-18 at 07:51 AM ----------

Sure, the K-7/K-5/K-3 series success is because they had both fair price and good specs. They is a gap in IQ between K-5 and K-7, and they is a gap in everything between the K-5 and K-3.

I hope the K-3II sequel will have equal or better specs in everything and will keep the same price than K-3 at launch. I am not interested in a $2000 flagship as good as it could be. If the price need to increase a lot because of awesome specs, I hope they will make a K-2 AND a K-3III ;-)

When is the last APS-C camera that was released with at a price point around or under $1000? Do Canon and Nikon even make their low-end plasticy stuff anymore, and if so when was the last release? Everyone seems to be moving away from that and almost everything is $1500+.

The Fuji X-H1 seems somewhat comparable in specs to a K-3 series camera, with IBIS, weather sealing, APS-C sensor, etc. It's $1900.

[MrNPhoto]

When is the last APS-C camera that was released with at a price point around or under $1000? Do Canon and Nikon even make their low-end plasticy stuff anymore, and if so when was the last release?

Nikon announced the D3500 Aug 30, 2018. Canon Rebel T7 (EOS 2000D) Feb 25, 2018. Bundles with kits lenses are ~$450 - $550. Both are 24MP.

[superdave]

When is the last APS-C camera that was released with at a price point around or under $1000? Do Canon and Nikon even make their low-end plasticy stuff anymore, and if so when was the last release? Everyone seems to be moving away from that and almost everything is $1500+.

The Fuji X-H1 seems somewhat comparable in specs to a K-3 series camera, with IBIS, weather sealing, APS-C sensor, etc. It's $1900.

K-3II, I bought mine 1 year after release for 800€.
1200-1300€ body only is a fair price for the K-3 line. I bought my K-5 for about 1500€ with 18-135mm 6 month after the release.
To help, there is a cashback or a -10% at least one or two times a year.

$1900 would be a no go for me. And for comparison, XT-3 (which is more appealing than X-H1 for me) is 1500€ with tons of improvements over XT-2 (which is a K-3 like). 1500€ is a max for me, as the street price could be 1200 or 1300 after few months.

[ThorSanchez]

Nikon announced the D3500 Aug 30, 2018. Canon Rebel T7 (EOS 2000D) Feb 25, 2018. Bundles with kits lenses are ~$450 - $550. Both are 24MP.

That's interesting, thanks. Pentax hasn't played in that market since I've been watching. When I bought a similar K-30 bundle in '12 it was something like $850. Of course with a much richer feature set with IBIS, weather sealing, etc.

I would guess that those Nikons and Canons are low-margin designed for high-volume sales. Pentax can't do that. If I were a betting man I'd say the next APS-C Pentax body will be $1300.

---------- Post added 10-02-18 at 08:25 AM ----------

$1900 would be a no go for me. And for comparison, XT-3 (which is more appealing than X-H1 for me) is 1500€ with tons of improvements over XT-2 (which is a K-3 like). 1500€ is a max for me, as the street price could be 1200 or 1300 after few months.

X-T3 is a sports and action camera, right? That's what it seems like from the specs. I guess I get no IBIS for that, your shutter speed is generally high. But no weather sealing? I don't quite understand why every mid-to-high end camera doesn't have that. Shooting outdoor sports means you're in the weather all the time.

For me the killer features of the K-30 were weather sealing, IBIS, and cost.

[Mistral75]

(...)
When is the last APS-C camera that was released with at a price point around or under $1000? Do Canon and Nikon even make their low-end plasticy stuff anymore, and if so when was the last release? Everyone seems to be moving away from that and almost everything is $1500+.
(...)

The latest camera that was released with at a price point around or under $1,000 is the Nikon D3500 announced on 30 August 2018. RRP is $499 with an 18-55mm kit lens.

Latest release by Canon and Nikon of their 'low-end plasticy stuff'

• Canon: EOS 4000D (£330/€380 i.e $385 body only; the lowest launch price of any DSLR), EOS Rebel T7 ($549.99 with an 18-55mm IS kit lens) and EOS M50 ($780 body only), the three of them announced on 26 February 2018.
• Nikon: Nikon D3500 ($499 with an 18-55mm kit lens) announced on 30 August 2018.

Don't let the camera makers' communication fool you. They are trying to move upmarket but the bulk of sales, in particular DSLR sales, comes from entry-level products.

Look at the latest CIPA figures: http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201808_e.pdf

Average unit production prices over the January-August 2018 period are ¥32,285 ($284) for DSLRs and ¥39,989 ($351) for mirrorless cameras.

Of course these prices are ex works (EXW) prices and you should multiply them by approximately 2 to obtain the corresponding prices but still...

[reh321]

But it turns out that you need higher end specifications to sell cameras -- or a really low price and the KP didn't really have either. I think right now Pentax is doing an evaluation of what things they will need to start to include going forward in order to make certain their camera sales are adequate.

A main difference between the K-70 and the KP seems to be build-quality; for roughly $300 you get a mostly-metal case and get away from the ancient aperture control (*) used in lower-priced Pentax models ..... things not easily seen.


(*) this is probably a lousy place to debate K-30/50/S2/70 aperture control

[superdave]

X-T3 is a sports and action camera, right? That's what it seems like from the specs. I guess I get no IBIS for that, your shutter speed is generally high. But no weather sealing? I don't quite understand why every mid-to-high end camera doesn't have that. Shooting outdoor sports means you're in the weather all the time.

For me the killer features of the K-30 were weather sealing, IBIS, and cost.

XT-3 is marketed as a sport camera because of its 30 fps and its huge AF improvement over XT-2 but it can be used for landscape or portrait as well. I don't think it has IBIS but IT IS weather-sealed.

[ThorSanchez]

The latest camera that was released with at a price point around or under $1,000 is the Nikon D3500 announced on 30 August 2018. RRP is $499 with an 18-55mm kit lens.

Latest release by Canon and Nikon of their 'low-end plasticy stuff'

• Canon: EOS 4000D (£330/€380 i.e $385 body only; the lowest launch price of any DSLR), EOS Rebel T7 ($549.99 with an 18-55mm IS kit lens) and EOS M50 ($780 body only), the three of them announced on 26 February 2018.
• Nikon: Nikon D3500 ($499 with an 18-55mm kit lens) announced on 30 August 2018.

Don't let the camera makers' communication fool you. They are trying to move upmarket but the bulk of sales, in particular DSLR sales, comes from entry-level products.

Look at the latest CIPA figures: http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201808_e.pdf

Average unit production prices over the January-August 2018 period are ¥32,285 ($284) for DSLRs and ¥39,989 ($351) for mirrorless cameras.

Of course these prices are ex works (EXW) prices and you should multiply them by approximately 2 to obtain the corresponding prices but still...

Thanks. I suppose they'll always sell a lot more more VW Golfs than Audi S5s. Most people don't even think about a $60k car or a $2500 camera.

[mecrox]

The latest camera that was released with at a price point around or under $1,000 is the Nikon D3500 announced on 30 August 2018. RRP is $499 with an 18-55mm kit lens.

Latest release by Canon and Nikon of their 'low-end plasticy stuff'

• Canon: EOS 4000D (£330/€380 i.e $385 body only; the lowest launch price of any DSLR), EOS Rebel T7 ($549.99 with an 18-55mm IS kit lens) and EOS M50 ($780 body only), the three of them announced on 26 February 2018.
• Nikon: Nikon D3500 ($499 with an 18-55mm kit lens) announced on 30 August 2018.

Don't let the camera makers' communication fool you. They are trying to move upmarket but the bulk of sales, in particular DSLR sales, comes from entry-level products.

Look at the latest CIPA figures: http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201808_e.pdf

Average unit production prices over the January-August 2018 period are ¥32,285 ($284) for DSLRs and ¥39,989 ($351) for mirrorless cameras.

Of course these prices are ex works (EXW) prices and you should multiply them by approximately 2 to obtain the corresponding prices but still...

I agree. But the difficulty for the smaller camera companies, I presume, is that the cheaper entry-level items like the Nikon D3xxx series only work on the grand scale and with huge marketing and sales budgets, etc. So the smaller outfits have to find niches much higher up the market. Tricky perhaps but unavoidable to make the finances work. But yes, the apparent assumption that unless you have a $2K FF unit you are a nobody is completely ludicrous. There are many scenarios for which M43, for example, is all anyone really needs. Maybe there will soon be a backlash against all the current hype.

[6BQ5]

Right, a product has to differentiate itself to sell. In today's environment a good, mid-range Pentax that's almost as small as a mirrorless body is only going to appeal to people who already shoot Pentax. There was little there to make someone who is brand agnostic say "yes, that's the feature that makes me buy Pentax!"

In 2012 I knew nothing about "good" cameras, and I ended up with Pentax because of the value of the feature set. If I were in the same situation today I would probably end up with a Fuji or a Sony. Pentax still makes good equipment, but they have to differentiate themselves and give people a reason to pick their stuff.

---------- Post added 10-02-18 at 07:51 AM ----------



When is the last APS-C camera that was released with at a price point around or under $1000? Do Canon and Nikon even make their low-end plasticy stuff anymore, and if so when was the last release? Everyone seems to be moving away from that and almost everything is $1500+.

The Fuji X-H1 seems somewhat comparable in specs to a K-3 series camera, with IBIS, weather sealing, APS-C sensor, etc. It's $1900.

The Fuji X-H1 is a content creation beast capable of 4k video and it has a very capable AF system, a high resolution EVF, plus all the weather sealing and IBIS of a Pentax body. The body sells for about $1650 on Amazon. I think the image sensor is a little better than the K-3 II but let's remember the K-3 II is an older body.

The older Fuji X-T2 bodies is probably closer to the K-3 and KP bodies.

[MMVIII]

I agree. But the difficulty for the smaller camera companies, I presume, is that the cheaper entry-level items like the Nikon D3xxx series only work on the grand scale and with huge marketing and sales budgets, etc. So the smaller outfits have to find niches much higher up the market. Tricky perhaps but unavoidable to make the finances work. But yes, the apparent assumption that unless you have a $2K FF unit you are a nobody is completely ludicrous. There are many scenarios for which M43, for example, is all anyone really needs. Maybe there will soon be a backlash against all the current hype.

Right, if Ricoh has to sell 500 units of lowest level cameras to get the same revenue as with 50 higher class ones, they for sure have more chances to go for the second route. I imagine if out of 1000 people 200 consider a pentax then, first of all they have shown some interest in having done some research and Ricoh would rather sell to 25 the higher class model than to 50 the mass level one.

[normhead]

I just thought of my question for the execs.
"What do you find the most exciting about Pentax at the moment?"

That should be the first question for every interview.

Too late unfortunately.