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11-11-2018, 11:01 PM   #196
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Pentax was right to go compact with APS DSLRs at the time, they were the only ones to do so (AFAICT).

Now ILC and smartphones are here. They're a heck of a lot more compact than any APS DSLR and K-P proves the point (missing features according to alot of members here).

IMO Pentax is right *now* to target quality and upper range with FF. APS won't go away but it won't be the main target.

Also IMO, 645 isn't neglected but it's waiting to know it it will get mirrorless treatment (but then Pentax needs new lenses right when they struggle having new lenses for FF) or not (not even talking about crop 645 or FF 645).

I would not be surprised at all in the distant future (or not so distant?) to have a lineup looking like:
* APS : ILC GR-like or Leica-like ---> "quality oriented"
(+ maybe a DSLR body more speed/sport oriented but using mainly legacy and current modern DFA lenses)
* FF: DSLRs
* 645: ILC

11-12-2018, 03:54 AM   #197
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Regularly we see members here complaining about size of the KP - perhaps Pentax has stood for smaller cameras, but users are willing to accept only so much of that. Often I find myself using my Super Program to "defend" the KP {which is larger than the Super Program}, saying that the body does not have to "balance" a long lens - that with the Super Program I routinely held the lens with one hand and the body with the other ... exactly as would be true with the KP. Perhaps a 24mp FF variant of the KP would be the size of a K-3 .... smaller than the K-1 but not so small as to create the problems users expect to have with a KP.
I don't think small size sells -- at least not outside of Asia. This is particularly true if specifications have to be cut back at all in order to shrink the form factor.

The smallest recent vintage camera that Pentax made was the K-S1. It is smaller than the Fuji XH1 (one of the few Fuji's to have IBIS). It has a 100 percent penta prism optical viewfinder and IBIS, but was run down pretty heavily on the Forum when it was released.

Even with lenses, we have seen a shift. Tiny lenses like the DA limiteds and FA limiteds aren't the hot items any more and Pentaxians would rather have zooms or highly corrected primes. Except for those who shoot really ancient lenses.

I'm not against Pentax releasing a small SLR -- they could certainly make one that is smaller than a lot of the current APS-C mirrorless on the market, but it shouldn't lack functionality in order to make it small.
11-12-2018, 05:11 AM   #198
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
The smallest recent vintage camera that Pentax made was the K-S1. It is smaller than the Fuji XH1 (one of the few Fuji's to have IBIS). It has a 100 percent penta prism optical viewfinder and IBIS, but was run down pretty heavily on the Forum when it was released.
I thought it was run down because of all the lights and colors. People thought if they were going to pay $X for a real camera it should look like a real camera. Black, serious. No gimmicks. Like a pro, you know. It's like cars, you can have them in any color you want just so long as it's silver, black, beige, gray, or white. Imagine what orange or green would do for resale on that RAV-4, goodness.


I think that if Nikon or Canon had released a K-S2 or KP clone they'd be at least cult favorites with devoted followers. Pentax' flaw was that a devoted cult niche of our brand is 38 people.
11-12-2018, 06:36 AM   #199
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
I think that if Nikon or Canon had released a K-S2 or KP clone they'd be at least cult favorites with devoted followers. Pentax' flaw was that a devoted cult niche of our brand is 38 people.
Canon did release the SL-1 and SL-2 ...... apparently the SL-2 is still for sale, but the fact you didn't think of it as you wrote the above says a lot {it isn't any sort of "favorite"}

11-12-2018, 06:43 AM   #200
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QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
You said "DSLR", which used to mean APS-C in Pentaxland,
and the dedicated line of DA lenses to go with that.


Like Nikon, Canon, etc., so only minor brand differentiation there.

The APS-C DSLRs that Pentax has previously offered,
along with lenses like the DA Limiteds,
have been a good compact alternative to mirrorless cameras.
FF DSLRs won't help advance that compact sector.
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I don't think small size sells -- at least not outside of Asia. This is particularly true if specifications have to be cut back at all in order to shrink the form factor.

The smallest recent vintage camera that Pentax made was the K-S1. It is smaller than the Fuji XH1 (one of the few Fuji's to have IBIS). It has a 100 percent penta prism optical viewfinder and IBIS, but was run down pretty heavily on the Forum when it was released.

Even with lenses, we have seen a shift. Tiny lenses like the DA limiteds and FA limiteds aren't the hot items any more and Pentaxians would rather have zooms or highly corrected primes. Except for those who shoot really ancient lenses.

I'm not against Pentax releasing a small SLR -- they could certainly make one that is smaller than a lot of the current APS-C mirrorless on the market, but it shouldn't lack functionality in order to make it small.
You are correct; I allowed @lytrytyr to lead me down a false trail. People here, and the market in general, haven't given a ringing endorsement to small cameras. Pentax needs to concentrate on quality build, quality images, and features. I would hate to retire my DA lenses - but if that is the best way for Pentax to deliver Dynamic Range, Color Depth, and Low Noise, then so be it.
11-12-2018, 06:43 AM   #201
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
I thought it was run down because of all the lights and colors. People thought if they were going to pay $X for a real camera it should look like a real camera. Black, serious. No gimmicks. Like a pro, you know. It's like cars, you can have them in any color you want just so long as it's silver, black, beige, gray, or white. Imagine what orange or green would do for resale on that RAV-4, goodness.
That was just an excuse - the LEDs can be turned off, and there was a black version as well.
Cameras are often judged with double standards; Pentax' ultra compact DSLR is "disco lights", while Canon's inferior SL1 was a competent little camera. Pentax should slap a Canon badge on their products before sending them to reviewers.
11-12-2018, 07:21 AM - 1 Like   #202
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
That was just an excuse - the LEDs can be turned off, and there was a black version as well.
Cameras are often judged with double standards; Pentax' ultra compact DSLR is "disco lights", while Canon's inferior SL1 was a competent little camera. Pentax should slap a Canon badge on their products before sending them to reviewers.
To draw attention, Pentax sometimes experiments with a gimmicky feature on an otherwise competent camera, thus giving Pentax critics a perfect hook to dismiss the product. The LED’s were a learning experiment (see K-1 external lighting) but putting them in the hand grip where they are covered when holding the camera was a hilarious oversight by the California design team. Similar observations can be made about K-01 (and Nikon Df). OTOH the KP handgrips are actually clever and useful - but they get no credit for them.

.:

11-12-2018, 07:39 AM   #203
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To be fair, the LEDs were functional with the camera on a tripod - as a timer countdown, and as a face detection counter. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think they had any function when handholding the camera.
11-12-2018, 08:51 AM   #204
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QuoteOriginally posted by BROO Quote
My take on this comment is "Watch out for 2019- Ricoh revives Pentax!"
QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
I would not be surprised at all in the distant future (or not so distant?) to have a lineup looking like:
* APS : ILC GR-like or Leica-like ---> "quality oriented"
(+ maybe a DSLR body more speed/sport oriented but using mainly legacy and current modern DFA lenses)
* FF: DSLRs
* 645: ILC
People are starting to expect way more then is healthy. With sales going down for the camera business, I guess Ricoh is going to play safe.....don't take to many risks. So expecting them to come with two new mirrorless mounts......Well seriously. ....that is not going to happen.
11-12-2018, 09:28 AM   #205
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
I guess Ricoh is going to play safe.....don't take to many risks
Sky divers avoid risks as well. Usually people avoid risks. I don't see many people on pedestrian crossings when the light is red.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 11-12-2018 at 09:45 AM.
11-12-2018, 09:33 AM   #206
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
I would not be surprised at all in the distant future (or not so distant?) to have a lineup looking like:
* APS : ILC GR-like or Leica-like ---> "quality oriented"
(+ maybe a DSLR body more speed/sport oriented but using mainly legacy and current modern DFA lenses)
* FF: DSLRs
* 645: ILC
I couldn't understand what you were trying to say here

"ILC" stands for "Interchangeable Lens Camera" - the K-3ii and 645Z each is an ILC.

Based on how others have responded, I think you meant to say "MILC" - "Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera"
11-12-2018, 09:43 AM   #207
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I couldn't understand what you were trying to say here

"ILC" stands for "Interchangeable Lens Camera" - the K-3ii and 645Z each is an ILC.

Based on how others have responded, I think you meant to say "MILC" - "Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera"
Yop, the 'M' got stucked somewhere MILC of course.
11-12-2018, 09:46 AM   #208
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
People are starting to expect way more then is healthy. With sales going down for the camera business, I guess Ricoh is going to play safe.....don't take to many risks. So expecting them to come with two new mirrorless mounts......Well seriously. ....that is not going to happen.
I do not expect anything. Unlike many members here I do not think orientated by my wishes or frustration.
No I won't spam every thread with 'why didn't they go with my superior idea' or whetever.
It's not as if I wished for APS-H.
11-12-2018, 09:58 AM - 1 Like   #209
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
It's not as if I wished for APS-H.
I'm with Ron on that one. My DA*60-250 would be awesome on APS-h without modification.

High fives there Ron.

APS-h is an intelligence test Ron and I devised to determine who just dismisses new ideas out of hand and just goes with the herd or who can actually intelligently weigh the pros and cons and come to a reasoned conclusion. And to continue that thought, I would happily use crop mode on my K-1, if they gave me the choice of APS-h. You just lose to many MP going with the APS-c crop size, and very few lenses wouldn't support APS-h. Now talk about a relatively easy to implement tweak.

But not to worry, Ron and I only make mental notes about who passes the test. it's not written down anywhere.
No one can hack our computers to find out who the sheep are.

I'm sure that will be comforting to many., rest easy, our data is secure.

Last edited by normhead; 11-12-2018 at 10:17 AM.
11-12-2018, 10:24 AM   #210
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APS-H - like many other random obsessions - makes no sense at all.

There's this small advantage of avoiding vignetting on non-FF lenses by cropping with the sensor instead in software (which might be camera's), and that's it.
On the other hand, having a non-standard format would put you in a very difficult position, which is the last thing Pentax should do. It would have to be a custom sensor, one done for a camera/brand which sells in very low volumes; that would make it no less expensive than a FF camera. One main reason why the K-1 is so cheap is its sensor: excellent, but older generation "off the shelf" solution.

And excusing this proposal with the DA* 60-250 working satisfactorily denotes an incorrect line of thinking: the DA* is a 2008 product, more than a decade old. Far from making a new camera just for it, the correct action is to replace the lens (like it or not, that replacement might be the D FA 70-200 f/4).
Just FTR, the DA* is no less awesome on the K-1 with some cropping. So APS-H doesn't solve any problem you might have.
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