Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
10-02-2018, 04:34 AM   #16
Pentaxian
Andrea K's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Rome, Italy
Posts: 462
QuoteOriginally posted by FozzFoster Quote
Sounds like a hybrid viewfinder to me... how is that 'not quite' a hybrid?

Google translated:

"PROBLEM TO BE SOLVED: To obtain an easy-to-see field-of-view display device (display device in viewfinder). A magnifying glass optical system is provided for enlarging and observing a subject image formed on a focusing screen, and a display unit for displaying predetermined information in a field of view of the loupe optical system so as to overlap or display the object image, Wherein the information input device includes at least a part between an information display section for displaying the information and a predetermined incident point to be made incident into the field of view....

Claim:
A loupe optical system for enlarging and observing a subject image formed on the focusing screen and information for causing predetermined information to enter the field of view of the loupe optical system so as to be superimposed on or displayed in place of the subject image....

On the other hand, it has been known for a long time that superimposed (SI) function for superimposing and displaying a relatively coarse point image such as the distance measuring point position at the time of autofocus on the image of the optical viewfinder. Here, if the subject image by the photographing lens which houses the quick return mirror and formed on the image pickup element can be displayed by the superimposing function, it is possible to make the optical viewfinder function as the electronic viewfinder...."
To simulate the EVF aids to the manual focus they will put a magnifying glass in the OVF?!?!

10-02-2018, 06:13 AM - 2 Likes   #17
Pentaxian




Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,170
QuoteOriginally posted by FozzFoster Quote
Well, it could explain why the DA*11-18/2.8 was nowhere to be seen at Photokina 2018, after the earlier prototype being available to try out (except for pictures) at the 2018 Brussels Imaging Days (and other venues?)... At Photokina they were very tight lipped about the lens (or simply didn't know anything) when I asked about it. Other than "confirming" it would be for 2019 that is.

This lens often reminds me of the DA*60-250/4, which got delayed frequently and had its features changed significantly between the first prototype shown and the final product. I'm just hoping the DA*11-18/2.8 will be faster to market...

Wim

Last edited by Ishpuini; 10-02-2018 at 07:08 AM.
10-02-2018, 06:46 AM   #18
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
FozzFoster's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Alberta
Photos: Albums
Posts: 4,248
QuoteOriginally posted by Andrea K Quote
To simulate the EVF aids to the manual focus they will put a magnifying glass in the OVF?!?!
well I don't know what the final product is going to be... and I'm not too sure what you're concerned about... an OVF does magnify the image... in a sense it is a magnifying glass.

For example, the K-1 has 0.70x magnification in it's viewfinder:
Pentax K-1 - Pentax K-mount DSLRs - Pentax Camera Reviews and Specifications

But who knows maybe you can zoom 1:1 within the overlayed EVF while looking through the OVF!!?!
10-02-2018, 01:03 PM   #19
Pentaxian
The Squirrel Mafia's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,854
Some exciting patents here. Lets see how many of them actually make their way into the K-3II successor.

10-02-2018, 01:17 PM - 1 Like   #20
Pentaxian
Andrea K's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Rome, Italy
Posts: 462
QuoteOriginally posted by FozzFoster Quote
well I don't know what the final product is going to be... and I'm not too sure what you're concerned about... an OVF does magnify the image... in a sense it is a magnifying glass.

For example, the K-1 has 0.70x magnification in it's viewfinder:
Pentax K-1 - Pentax K-mount DSLRs - Pentax Camera Reviews and Specifications

But who knows maybe you can zoom 1:1 within the overlayed EVF while looking through the OVF!!?!

If I understand the patent translation posted here there are two "parts": a magnifying glass that can enlarge a portion of the OVF, probably only the center, and a superimposed electronic device that gives some realtime informations, probably the histogram or other useful data.

I think that the enlarging function can't be through an EVF because this will need another sensor under another light path (or maybe the exposure sensor with more resolution) ?
A very small magnifying glass inside the OVF seems a bit tricky to me....
10-02-2018, 01:46 PM - 1 Like   #21
Pentaxian




Join Date: Feb 2016
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 380
Pentax Rumors has an interesting article about a newly patented focusing screen.

????????????????????????J-PlatPat
10-02-2018, 02:20 PM   #22
Forum Member




Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 95
Overall one could say - it looks like a hybrid viewfinder...

that is the only thing one should assume from looking into such a patent if he/she is not a native japanese speaker...
Google Translate even struggles with the easiest things translating from svedish to french or translate some actually not that difficult african language to english...
Imagine the failures that happen with hungarian, czech, russian...
and than imagine the failures in translation when it gets fed with a language thats not even close to the outmost orbit of latin letters or the indo-european languages...
I dont even see a chance here for someone who knows "a bit" japanese to read out any details, let alone the actual method of operation because it think most words&|symbols are very contextual.
Translating from technical japanese to english may be one of the most difficult tasks even for a professional interpreter. (remember the early days of japanese tech sold in the west and its funny manuals?)
I guess as "mere mortals" we can only read out the basics of such a patent.


But a Hybrid Viewfinder as such... thats a thing PENTAX is after for a while now and seems to have intentions to build it one day.

I dare to say that, since I already have seen patents for some kind of switchable mirror(you could make it translucent or level it up to being 100% reflective...)
(somebody with the knowledge translated it...)
Such a mirror with adjustable "reflectiveness" would make a true hybrid camera possible.

But bare in mind, that all that doesnt mean so much, since... i also have seen patents for a display which you could totally take off of the camera body a few years ago.
I guess that would work with some kind of proprietary near field communication protocol not in use by any other standard...
That would make it possible to have interchangable display mounts in the end.

But again... dont expect too much. There are sooo many patents that never gave birth to an actual product...

Since i believe to know how PENTAX is ticking, i guess that they for sure not even dared to speculate about how many spare displays they could sell additionally... if they would build a camera with detachable display and interchangeble display mounts...
I rather fancy one of the big bosses walked by at R&D saw that wonderful patent and said: "Too risky orokamono san, customers will loose it... close the file, burn it, burry it and put a tombstone on top. we may use it later."
10-02-2018, 02:31 PM   #23
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Australia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 3,276
QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
A DSLR with hybrid viewfinder would be an interesting option
not for me, OVF rules man, I want less rubbish to see in the viewfinder, just the scene I'm photographing nothing else, what more do you need? I might use Av sometimes, much of the time I manual expose, just need to see the scene, OVF all the way. Mirror less to me would need to be rangefinder, don't want this EVF rubbish, leave DSLR as OVF.

10-02-2018, 02:35 PM - 2 Likes   #24
Pentaxian




Join Date: Feb 2016
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 380
Pentax are trying to improve manual focus capabilities through the viewfinder. This is one big advantage of EVF designs. You can use focus peaking. Currently we can only use focus peaking on the rear display. So they are trying a few things.
10-02-2018, 02:43 PM   #25
Senior Moderator
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
BigMackCam's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: North-East of England
Posts: 13,502
QuoteOriginally posted by H.Abendsen Quote
I dare to say that, since I already have seen patents for some kind of switchable mirror(you could make it translucent or level it up to being 100% reflective...)
(somebody with the knowledge translated it...)
Such a mirror with adjustable "reflectiveness" would make a true hybrid camera possible.

But bare in mind, that all that doesnt mean so much, since... i also have seen patents for a display which you could totally take off of the camera body a few years ago.
I guess that would work with some kind of proprietary near field communication protocol not in use by any other standard...
That would make it possible to have interchangable display mounts in the end.
Going back to 1965, Canon had its Pellix approach with a semi-transparent stationary reflex mirror. Although not quite the same, Sony's SLT technology employed a similar approach, though not to reflect an optical view to a viewfinder. If something similar could be used to reflect an optical view of sufficient brightness whilst allowing enough light through to the sensor, and combining that with a transparent LCD overly inside the optical viewfinder, that might offer one approach to a hybrid viewfinder system. I doubt that's the way things would develop, but the possibility is worth considering. Your idea of adjustable reflectiveness (though I don't know if this is even possible) would have interesting applications here

QuoteOriginally posted by H.Abendsen Quote
Since i believe to know how PENTAX is ticking
Outside of Ricoh Imaging's Pentax team and its executive management, I think that would make you quite unique
10-02-2018, 02:43 PM   #26
Pentaxian
MMVIII's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: EU
Posts: 546
QuoteOriginally posted by Andrea K Quote
If I understand the patent translation posted here there are two "parts": a magnifying glass that can enlarge a portion of the OVF, probably only the center, and a superimposed electronic device that gives some realtime informations, probably the histogram or other useful data.

I think that the enlarging function can't be through an EVF because this will need another sensor under another light path (or maybe the exposure sensor with more resolution) ?
A very small magnifying glass inside the OVF seems a bit tricky to me....
I would assume that some things would work simply with mirror up, thus having the same viewfinder offering either the image from the matte screen with some information superimposed, or the stream from liveview, with everything that is possible with that.
Anyhow, based on nothing but purest speculation, for sure.
10-02-2018, 02:49 PM - 2 Likes   #27
Senior Moderator
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
BigMackCam's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: North-East of England
Posts: 13,502
QuoteOriginally posted by beachgardener Quote
not for me, OVF rules man, I want less rubbish to see in the viewfinder, just the scene I'm photographing nothing else, what more do you need? I might use Av sometimes, much of the time I manual expose, just need to see the scene, OVF all the way. Mirror less to me would need to be rangefinder, don't want this EVF rubbish, leave DSLR as OVF.
I'm not talking about seeing more in the viewfinder all the time.

Some of the time (as much of that time as you choose, actually), all you would see would be the optical view.

But, selectable and configurable via an otherwise-transparent LCD layer in the viewfinder, you'd see overlays of settings and / or - importantly - a digital representation of the image, even magnified when you need it. Imagine that... switchable optical or digital view, and better still - for those situations where you'd like it - a combo of the two? That's what I'm talking about. Those who like OVF (me included) could use that view most of the time, leveraging the EVF aspect only when needing certain EVF features such as live histogram, a brightened view during low-light shooting, or - here's one for you - critical accuracy with manual focus (you might think EVFs are rubbish, but stand next to me when I'm using my A7 MkII (instead of my K-3) and replicate my accurate focusing of a fast lens wide open with your OVF ).

Hey, I'm a huge fan of OVFs. I love them. I prefer them when they're the most practical choice. Most of the cameras I shoot have them. Yet for certain applications, an EVF is gold-dust, where an OVF is - to use your term - "rubbish". In others, the OVF rules supreme, and the EVF is "rubbish". Disclosure: I bought a Sony A7 MkII primarily to shoot my old Soviet manual focus glass... Yet I still prefer my Pentax gear when I can use it to its best advantage.

Do you see what I'm getting at? Or are you closed off to the benefits EVFs - or better still, a hybrid O/EVF - can offer in even a limited number of your use cases? If you are, that's fine... I won't challenge that. What's right for you is right for you. But trust me, there are people who would make great use of a hybrid viewfinder

Last edited by BigMackCam; 10-02-2018 at 02:59 PM.
10-02-2018, 02:57 PM   #28
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Australia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 3,276
QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
a digital representation of the image. Imagine that...
Yes I have imagined that, and looked into EV Finders, don't like what I see. I don't want to see a movie of the scene, I want to see the scene. Simple as that. I prefer the camera as simple as possible without all the extra rubbish. If they get rid of OVF I'll go back to film cameras.
10-02-2018, 03:01 PM - 2 Likes   #29
Pentaxian




Join Date: Feb 2016
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 380
QuoteOriginally posted by beachgardener Quote
If they get rid of OVF I'll go back to film cameras.
Why don't you just keep the camera that you have?
10-02-2018, 03:03 PM - 1 Like   #30
Senior Moderator
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
BigMackCam's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: North-East of England
Posts: 13,502
QuoteOriginally posted by beachgardener Quote
Yes I have imagined that, and looked into EV Finders, don't like what I see. I don't want to see a movie of the scene, I want to see the scene. Simple as that. I prefer the camera as simple as possible without all the extra rubbish. If they get rid of OVF I'll go back to film cameras.
That's fair enough. It's a use-case issue, then... you wouldn't benefit from an OVF with selectable individual overlays for certain information (or none at all, as appropriate), and you don't have any need for absolute accuracy with manual focus of fast glass - or, rather, if you do, you're happy to use Live View. That's a perfectly valid stance. Or do you not like Live View either, given that it's electronic?

You may not need it, and you could certainly choose not to buy it, but you could use a hybrid viewfinder camera in exactly the same way as an OVF-only camera. I can see that you wouldn't want to pay for the additional capabilities, and that's fine... But operationally, you'd arguably be no worse off. With your settings, you'd see no difference, as the EVF elements would be permanently switched off

That's the thing - a hybrid viewfinder wouldn't be "getting rid of OVF" - it would be adding to it, only with the information and capabilities you want or need, when you want or need them (which might be never)...
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
barrel, development at ricoh, dslr, force, info, lens, mirrorless, patent, patents, pentax, pentax news, pentax rumors, ricoh, time, video, video mode, viewfinder
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Imaging Resource's CP+2018 interview with Ricoh Imaging Kunzite Pentax News and Rumors 93 04-18-2018 11:12 PM
Imaging Resource: Ricoh’s “Multi-Imaging Technology” pairs a K-1 with a Theta S EssJayEff Pentax News and Rumors 16 03-03-2017 12:05 AM
RICOH IMAGING to Exhibit a DSLR Camera Under Development at CP+ February 12-15 Adam Homepage & Official Pentax News 0 02-04-2015 04:30 PM
RICOH IMAGING to Exhibit Four Reference Products at CP+ 2014 Camera and Photo Imaging Adam Homepage & Official Pentax News 6 04-01-2014 04:45 AM
Ricoh announces company name change - no more Pentax Ricoh Imaging, just Ricoh. rawr Pentax News and Rumors 528 10-28-2013 04:39 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:08 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top