Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
10-04-2008, 02:23 PM   #136
Pentaxian
thibs's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Belgium
Photos: Albums
Posts: 5,260
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
My point is -- and you are welcome to disagree -- that when comparing a 12 MP FF to a 12 MP APC-C sensor, you are comparing apples to oranges.
I don't think so.

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
The FF sensor can afford the higher resolution without any drawbacks so denying it this advantage doesn't seem to be fair in a comparison.
But for lenses bulk, lenses prices and potential investment in APS-C glass.

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Why would anyone go FF without increasing the resolution? Just for the sensitivity and DOF? Isn't one typical application of FF / MF landscape photography and very large prints? The latter do not make sense if you do not go beyond APS-C resolution.
Well Nikon did and they get a big momentum so I conclude that many pros do like Nikon offering no extra Mpix by going FF.

10-04-2008, 09:40 PM   #137
Pentaxian
Class A's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 9,193
QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Nope. You can't get both if the sensor size is kept constant and remain unchanged. But if you enlarge the sensor, you can get lower noise and more resolution at the same time - Physics.
True, if you are happy to accept a shallower DOF. When aiming at the same DOF, there is no noise advantage.


QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Simple. To take an analogy for easy understanding...
In all of the following you don't explain why a larger sensor should have a wider DR (bigger wells).

Of course, if you keep the resolution the same and thus increase the pixel size you may gain wider DR if you manage to turn the bigger pixel size into higher well capacity. But bigger pixels also tend to have a higher noise floor.

Last edited by Class A; 10-29-2008 at 01:50 AM. Reason: Corrected incorrect assertion
10-05-2008, 01:56 AM   #138
ogl
Pentaxian
ogl's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Siberia
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 7,247
At Calgary Photo Expo said that Pentax has no plan to make neither FF, nor MF.
10-05-2008, 10:20 AM   #139
Pentaxian
thibs's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Belgium
Photos: Albums
Posts: 5,260
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
At Calgary Photo Expo said that Pentax has no plan to make neither FF, nor MF.
Again posting the same thing in multiple thread... you won't ever understand will you?

10-06-2008, 05:23 AM   #140
ogl
Pentaxian
ogl's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Siberia
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 7,247
QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Again posting the same thing in multiple thread... you won't ever understand will you?
Don't touch me...
10-06-2008, 11:09 AM   #141
Pentaxian
thibs's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Belgium
Photos: Albums
Posts: 5,260
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
Don't touch me...
Why the heck should I want to do that ?
10-07-2008, 07:38 PM   #142
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 499
QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Not true, it depends on the sensors (both APS-C and FF) and so depends on current APS-C camera owned and potential FF camera.
If I'd like to go FF but the only camera fitting my requirments is a Nikon D3 and I do apply your reasoning I will end with a 5Mpix (or around) shot (12Mpix cropped).
Since 12+Mpix is a requirment for me well... APS-C is the only viable solution.

I just can't see anyone not understanding this fact. In this situation there's simply only one solution.
Actually, there's another; you can use a 1.4X or 1.7X teleconverter to give you the same/similar FOV as an APS-C crop camera, keep your full frame and full megapixel count, AND you still get to enjoy that nice, big viewfinder.

All for minimal additional cost and weight, with comparable image quality (any IQ loss from a quality teleconverter on a FF would be about the same as cropping and required amplification on APS-C).
10-08-2008, 02:15 AM   #143
Pentaxian
thibs's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Belgium
Photos: Albums
Posts: 5,260
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
Actually, there's another; you can use a 1.4X or 1.7X teleconverter to give you the same/similar FOV as an APS-C crop camera, keep your full frame and full megapixel count, AND you still get to enjoy that nice, big viewfinder.

All for minimal additional cost and weight, with comparable image quality (any IQ loss from a quality teleconverter on a FF would be about the same as cropping and required amplification on APS-C).
I don't think so actually but somehow I'd like to be proven wrong.

10-08-2008, 08:24 AM   #144
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Charlotte, NC
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 886
QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
Actually, there's another; you can use a 1.4X or 1.7X teleconverter to give you the same/similar FOV as an APS-C crop camera, keep your full frame and full megapixel count, AND you still get to enjoy that nice, big viewfinder.
But you will lose 1 stop on the 1.4x and almost 2 stops on the 1.7x. Plus, you can of course attach teleconverters on APS-C and 4/3's cameras as well.

Judging by your user name I know it's pointless debating this with you, but I'm bored, so I've attached a sample of all that you gain using 21mp FF vs 15mp APS-C vs 12mp 4/3's. Needless to say it's not much.

If I were a nature photographer I'd buy something like the Olympus E-3. You could put their 8" long 90-250mm f/2.8 on there and have a 35mm FOV of 180-500mm! You'd have to buy Sigma's 28" long, $34,000, 200-500mm f/2.8 lens to accomplish that on 35mm.

Now if I were a portrait or landscape photographer then I would go 35mm, but not at today's prices. As you can see in my attached file the resolution difference is minimal between the 5D MkII and the 50D, but the price is not. For the price difference I could sell any old lenses I have an build a wonderful kit for the difference in cost between the two.

When prices come down it may be worth Pentax's time to make a FF camera, but I wouldn't do it if I were them until they can bring one to the market for under $1800.

On a side note, anyone that wants FF for low light purposes might better get one of the 12mp models before they "upgrade" them. DPR now has a review of the D700 up. In it they compare it to the 24 megapixel Sony A900. The 35mm A900 does no better at ISO1600 and up then the APS-C Nikon D300 does.


Edit: Just to clarify because after a second look I realized the image could be misleading. This image is not a crop ratio comparison. It's simply an image resolution comparison. The 5D mkII image I used to create it was originally 5616x3744. Bob Atkins has a nice diagram of crop ratio's if that's what you want.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Art Vandelay II; 10-08-2008 at 02:18 PM. Reason: Clarification
10-08-2008, 08:53 AM   #145
Veteran Member




Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 1,934
Below $1800 and Low Noise? Answer is Already Here!

QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
Now if I were a portrait or landscape photographer then I would go 35mm, but not at today's prices. As you can see in my attached file the resolution difference is minimal between the 5D MkII and the 50D, but the price is not. For the price difference I could sell any old lenses I have an build a wonderful kit for the difference in cost between the two.

When prices come down it may be worth Pentax's time to make a FF camera, but I wouldn't do it if I were them until they can bring one to the market for under $1800.

On a side note, anyone that wants FF for low light purposes might better get one of the 12mp models before they "upgrade" them. DPR now has a review of the D700 up. In it they compare it to the 24 megapixel Sony A900. The 35mm A900 does no better at ISO1600 and up then the APS-C Nikon D300 does.
So, just get a 5D Mk1 which is damn cheap right now - far below the $1800 threshold you suggested - go figure yourself! And, most importantly, I am sure that the 5D has lower noise than the A900 then, if what you say is true.

Since Pentax don't make and won't make a FF DSLR as it has been told officially (in Photokina), I have successfully made a K5D myself, see the latest photos over my Blog:-

RiceHigh's Pentax Blog: Preview: Cantax K5D Full Frame! ;-)

Well, I think this Cantax is what I need in the meantime, until I might fully migrate to Canon some days later (by re-build my whole lineup again, which requires much time - even my AF Pentax lens series was collected over decades).
10-08-2008, 09:00 AM   #146
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Charlotte, NC
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 886
QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
So, just get a 5D Mk1 which is damn cheap right now - far below the $1800 threshold you suggested - go figure yourself! And, most importantly, I am sure that the 5D has lower noise than the A900 then, if what you say is true.
I'm not delusional enough to think I need 35mm to make myself a better photographer. Besides, I would honestly rather have the 50D than the old 5D. Nicer LCD, better weather sealing, more resolution, built in flash, perfectly usable ISO1600, more FPS...plus I'd still save $300-500 depending on where you price it. I could use that extra cash to buy something like the Tamron 10-24mm to make up all those wide angle shots I'd "miss" by using APS-C.
10-08-2008, 10:39 AM   #147
Veteran Member
jeffkrol's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Wisconsin USA
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 8,435
QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
So, just get a 5D Mk1 which is damn cheap right now - far below the $1800 threshold you suggested - go figure yourself! And, most importantly, I am sure that the 5D has lower noise than the A900 then, if what you say is true.

Since Pentax don't make and won't make a FF DSLR as it has been told officially (in Photokina), I have successfully made a K5D myself, see the latest photos over my Blog:-

RiceHigh's Pentax Blog: Preview: Cantax K5D Full Frame! ;-)

Well, I think this Cantax is what I need in the meantime, until I might fully migrate to Canon some days later (by re-build my whole lineup again, which requires much time - even my AF Pentax lens series was collected over decades).
Not enough pixels on the "old" 5D....
Why not switch everything right now???
Market for your prime lenses should be high, though waiting a bit for the K3oD may improve your return a bit. (IF Pentax is still around,, smirk,,,)
Why prolong your pain????????
10-08-2008, 06:35 PM   #148
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 499
QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
But you will lose 1 stop on the 1.4x and almost 2 stops on the 1.7x. Plus, you can of course attach teleconverters on APS-C and 4/3's cameras as well.

Judging by your user name I know it's pointless debating this with you, but I'm bored, so I've attached a sample of all that you gain using 21mp FF vs 15mp APS-C vs 12mp 4/3's. Needless to say it's not much.

If I were a nature photographer I'd buy something like the Olympus E-3. You could put their 8" long 90-250mm f/2.8 on there and have a 35mm FOV of 180-500mm! You'd have to buy Sigma's 28" long, $34,000, 200-500mm f/2.8 lens to accomplish that on 35mm.

Now if I were a portrait or landscape photographer then I would go 35mm, but not at today's prices. As you can see in my attached file the resolution difference is minimal between the 5D MkII and the 50D, but the price is not. For the price difference I could sell any old lenses I have an build a wonderful kit for the difference in cost between the two.

When prices come down it may be worth Pentax's time to make a FF camera, but I wouldn't do it if I were them until they can bring one to the market for under $1800.

On a side note, anyone that wants FF for low light purposes might better get one of the 12mp models before they "upgrade" them. DPR now has a review of the D700 up. In it they compare it to the 24 megapixel Sony A900. The 35mm A900 does no better at ISO1600 and up then the APS-C Nikon D300 does.


Edit: Just to clarify because after a second look I realized the image could be misleading. This image is not a crop ratio comparison. It's simply an image resolution comparison. The 5D mkII image I used to create it was originally 5616x3744. Bob Atkins has a nice diagram of crop ratio's if that's what you want.
I don't know what that sample is supposed to tell me; as you noted in your edit, it's not representative of the relative frame sizes (both the APS-C and Four Thirds are way too big relative to the 35mm), and you can't see anything with the three overlays to compare. In any event, no point in trying to convince me that a compromise owing its existence to nothing but cost is a substitute for the format I started with (Full Frame 35mm). Even IF image quality was a complete wash (which it isn't), I would still pay the freight for FF, because I want my full angle of view that my lenses cover and my big viewfinder. For any serious photography, I'll just continue to shoot slide film until the digital is available in FF. If Hoya continues to play it ultra conservative and refuse to make what I want, then eventually I'll switch. Just depends whether they want to make an effort to keep legacy Pentax customers who aren't satisfied with cropped formats or send them to the competition.
10-08-2008, 07:20 PM   #149
Pentaxian
Class A's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 9,193
QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
I don't know what that sample is supposed to tell me;
It is a comparison between 21mp (FF) vs 15mp (APS-C) vs 12mp (4/3's), right? While that obviously does not match the difference in sensor areas, it seems relatively representative of what you can get today. I believe many agree with you that FF is desirable in principle but believe that what can be had today hasn't got the right performance/cost ratio.
QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
I want my full angle of view that my lenses cover and my big viewfinder.
Fair enough.
QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
For any serious photography, I'll just continue to shoot slide film until the digital is available in FF.
Fair enough again. Others manage to do 'serious photography' with APS-C too.
QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
Just depends whether they want to make an effort to keep legacy Pentax customers who aren't satisfied with cropped formats or send them to the competition.
I can image they would probably love to offer a FF camera but I'm pretty sure it would be a bad idea for them financially, in the current situation.

Last edited by Class A; 10-29-2008 at 01:50 AM. Reason: formatting, deleted incorrect assertion
10-08-2008, 07:42 PM   #150
Veteran Member




Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Auckland
Posts: 553
QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Why prolong your pain????????
In order to prolong ours...
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
645d, development, ff, pentax news, pentax rumors
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pentax USA prez interview henryp Ask B&H Photo! 2 10-14-2010 02:13 PM
Pentax interview with AP Urmas R. Pentax News and Rumors 34 03-11-2009 06:53 PM
Japanese interview with Pentax/Hoya MrApollinax Pentax News and Rumors 1 03-09-2009 06:47 AM
another pentax interview philmorley Pentax News and Rumors 23 10-28-2008 04:22 AM
Interview with Pentax Japan ckanthon Pentax DSLR Discussion 0 06-22-2008 12:45 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:07 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top