Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
10-03-2008, 07:17 PM   #121
Veteran Member
ManuH's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Montreal
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,209
QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
Nope, you didn't read my previous posts in this thread.
Oops true, sorry :-)

QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
I said in an early post that it's one thing if you're talking about 1/2.3" sensors, but the differences in 15 megapixel APS-C vs 15 megapixel FF are so minimal that no one would notice a difference in even very large prints. Both make large prints extremely well.
I agree. I would even say that some small sensor print good as well, at least at base ISO.

QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
I also am fully aware what crop factor means, and to be honest it's a term I'm getting tired of. 4/3, APS-C, 35mm, and medium format are all different formats. One could say 35mm is nothing but a small crop of a medium format FOV. Then medium FOV is nothing more than a crop of 4x5" view cameras, and that is only a crop of 8x10" Large Format. The bottom line is there is always a bigger fish. Fortunately though APS-C is more than enough for 95% of all users.
I agree that APS-C is more than enough for 95%, I agree that there is always larger and bigger format. Where I don't quite agree is on APS-C. IMHO it *is* a crop format for the simple reason that it uses a FF mount. The K mount was designed for 24x36mm not for APS-C therefore APS-C is a crop of that format. And APS-C has been chosen only for economic reasons, not for any superiority of size or anything. And if these economic reasons disappear, so will APS-C IMVHO.

10-03-2008, 07:22 PM   #122
Veteran Member
ManuH's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Montreal
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,209
QuoteOriginally posted by philmorley Quote
much the same as paying 2.5x the price for top glass.
It's an interesting comparison. If we agree that FF has a one stop difference it's a bit the same thing as comparing a f/2.8 lens with a f/4 one. One is faster and has less dof and often costs much more. The FF sensor is the f/2.8 lens, the APS-C would be the f/4 one.
10-03-2008, 09:30 PM   #123
Veteran Member
schmik's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Sydney Aus
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 527
Wow.... i just read all 9 pages. I need a massage!

I like pictures (simple).

I don't get it. If you want a FF and Pentax doesn't sell one but brand x does then go and by brand x. Is it really that hard?

BTW, how many people honestly make large prints? Don't most digital pics live on computer monitors?

I think too much of this complaining and arguing for the sake of it. I suggest you find a nice looking bird and go and take some pictures.

mike
10-03-2008, 09:43 PM   #124
Veteran Member
Venturi's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Tulsa, OK
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,639
I really have to wonder if the whole photographic community could have been done a favor by simply calling APS-C DSLRs "23mm cameras". The fact that "full-frame" (a term invented by marketing departments) lenses, in many cases, work just dandy on them is simply happy coincidence.

If nothing else, it certainly might have avoided a lot of bickering and infighting when there could have been photograph making and sharing going on instead.

Okay, said my piece on the subject. I feel better now.

10-03-2008, 09:44 PM   #125
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Charlotte, NC
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 886
QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
Oops true, sorry :-)
The K mount was designed for 24x36mm not for APS-C therefore APS-C is a crop of that format. And APS-C has been chosen only for economic reasons, not for any superiority of size or anything. And if these economic reasons disappear, so will APS-C IMVHO.
That could very well be the case, and truth be told I'd probably buy a 35mm camera if they were the exact same price as APS-C since I personally rarely ever shoot telephoto. However, as it is now for $3500 (the price of the 5D + 24-105mm) I could get:

K20D - $1000
Pentax DA 17-70mm f/4 SDM - $530
Sigma 70-200mm F2.8 II EX DG HSM- $750
Pentax DA 35mm f/2.8 Macro Limited - $480
Pentax DA 70mm f/2.5 Limited- $460
Pentax AF 360FGZ Flash - $200
Total: $3,420

I know the 5D has better IQ, but man which of those two options will yield me more quality pics? Which is ultimately the goal here less we forget.

If Pentax does decide to go 35mm I'd like for them to go mirrorless 35mm. It would make the perfect wedding camera, and since they could do away with the mirror box they could probably cut the 35mm lenses down to APS-C size or smaller. Then just make an adapter for K-Mount lenses. Plus it would separate them from Canikon instead of just following in their footsteps.

Still though, we are talking about a very small market here. DSLR's are currently only 7% of the market, and with the upcoming m4/3's systems I don't see that number getting any bigger. I see EVIL's and fixed lens APS-C pocket cameras eventually taking over the entry level market currently occupied by the Rebel/D60/Pentax K-M/Sony A200. Most people such as my mother (Sony A200 owner) didn't buy an SLR because she wants a large camera or even interchangeable lenses. She simply wanted faster focusing and better IQ. She thinks all the other aspects of SLR's are negatives. Once she can get better IQ in a smaller package she will never own an SLR again.

Once that segment leaves I'd guesstimate that will cut SLR market share down to 4% at best. Now what will that 4% use? I guess that depends on how good sensor technology gets. I will say this though, the results the Canon 50D quite frankly amaze me for APS-C. You'd have to be an extremely discerning user to justify even paying $500 more for the 5D, much less $1500 more.

Last edited by Art Vandelay II; 10-03-2008 at 09:50 PM.
10-03-2008, 10:47 PM   #126
Pentaxian
Class A's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 8,934
QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Well, if anyone believes in what the author told, then just believe it but all you will be wrong then!
Thanks for pointing out some of the problems with the article. I haven't tried to verify your claims because the truth regarding these isn't critical for me.

What I do know is that the article was fun to read (my kind of humour) and that it contained some valid arguments which are still true despite the fact that the author may have gotten some other things wrong.

QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Fifth, the main advantage of much lower noise, wide DR and higher resolution of FF DSLRs are intentionally omitted
Why do you get a wider dynamic range ("wide DR") with a FF sensor?

Last edited by Class A; 10-29-2008 at 01:47 AM. Reason: deleted incorrect assertion
10-04-2008, 06:30 AM   #127
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Charlotte, NC
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 886
QuoteOriginally posted by Douglas_of_Sweden Quote
I have to agree. I thought RH's bashing of Pentax on this forum was odd enough, but when looking at his web page and blog I'm really amazed...He should go to another brand and do something productive with all the time he invest in this. Like using the cameras of that other brand to take pictures.
Haha..good one. Rice doesn't take photos unless you count color swatches and resolution charts. I've browsed through RH's blog a couple of times looking for photo's only to find nothing but technical article's explaining to us why Pentax isn't capable of producing photos up to his "standards".

If you were to give Rice a Ducati I doubt he ride it. He'd just make a blog posting asinine research on tire wear because the bike came with Pirelli's and he thought they should have used Bridgestones. He'd measure grip, lean angles, wet weather vs dry...all the while the bike sits in the corner collecting dust while he continues to miss the point.
10-04-2008, 07:40 AM   #128
Veteran Member




Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 1,934
Sensor size can be enlarged!

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
You cannot get "much lower noise" and significantly "higher resolution" at the same time; either you go for one of them or you aim at a compromise. The latter will certainly yield some improvement in both aspects but obviously not what you could get if you chose either of them.
Nope. You can't get both if the sensor size is kept constant and remain unchanged. But if you enlarge the sensor, you can get lower noise and more resolution at the same time - Physics.

QuoteQuote:
Why do get a wider dynamic range ("wide DR") with a FF sensor?
Simple. To take an analogy for easy understanding, treat each picture element (light sensing element) just as a well in which this well hold the light charge which is proportional the amount of light energy project to it. The capacity of the well is yet proportional to the light receiving area of the "well".

The DR, by definition, is just a ratio of the maximum signal level to the floor noise level, which is in log-2 scale (i.e. EV). Actually, the imager datasheet contains its S/N value in dB (deci-Bels) which can be easily converted to EV by first divded by 10 and then mulitplying the constant log10/log2.

Since the DR is just the maximum S/N ratio of the sensor (putting aside the possible image processing tricks that can be done later and now only the S/N of the sensor itself is concerned, which is the fundamentals), the more charge it can store (in the "well"), the higher S/N ratio it can attain, as the floor noise level is more or less the same.

Also, with a stronger primitive signal level, less amplification can be done and hence again better signal quality - no amplification circuit is perfect in this world.

10-04-2008, 09:00 AM   #129
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Colorado USA
Posts: 1,337
I began buying new Eos full frame kit in Feb 2008

The prices I paid to enter into eos system in 2008 are different than yours:
All but one item bought brand new using instant cash off rebates and PMA discounts via B&H and Cameta.
5D $1,750 on 6-26-08
70-200mm 2.8 IS L $1469
16-35mm 2.8L $1209
50mm 2.5 Macro $250
100mm 2.8 Macro $429
TC1.4x II $290 with full af and metering
TC2xII $290 with full af and metering
Fast aperture focus screen $34.95
Slow aperture focus screen w/ grid lines $34.95
12mm Extention tube with full af and metering $40, like new "used"
25mm Extention Tube with full af and metering $139.95

Initial Grand Total $5,936.85, but since my wife now shoots Eos 5D Full Frame dslr also you can add in what I paid for her stuff:
A second brand new 5D $2,050 bought in May 2008 before 5D instant cash off deals launched for Summer.
Grand Total $7,986.85 for everything & ALL items Made in Japan still.

I've used Pentax for 6 years and digital K Mount for three years and finally with the instant cash off and instant cash off PMA discounts I bought into eos and then went ahead and completed my eos dream kit inleiu of wondering if another year or several more years would pass before Pentax or Now Pentax owned by Hoya would offer a full frame dslr, or reissue an improved upon 80-200mm 2.8, or create a fast aperture f2.8 superwide angle zoom, or make Two fully functional af teleconverters, or make Two fully functional af extention tubes?

For me I have no regrets, instead I'm quite happy that I added Eos to my tools kit while I'm still young enough to enjoy it all. I had planned to keep my Pentax FA and KA lenses due to numerous full frame rumours on this forum but now with no full frame in Hoya Pentax Business plan I'll likely sell it all and "Move On". I've enjoyed the images I've gotten via K Mount, I just wanted specific tools which Pentax can not provide, and I'm certain now with Hoya at the Helm, Pentax will not make these specific tools in forseeable future.








QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
That could very well be the case, and truth be told I'd probably buy a 35mm camera if they were the exact same price as APS-C since I personally rarely ever shoot telephoto. However, as it is now for $3500 (the price of the 5D + 24-105mm) I could get:

K20D - $1000
Pentax DA 17-70mm f/4 SDM - $530
Sigma 70-200mm F2.8 II EX DG HSM- $750
Pentax DA 35mm f/2.8 Macro Limited - $480
Pentax DA 70mm f/2.5 Limited- $460
Pentax AF 360FGZ Flash - $200
Total: $3,420

I know the 5D has better IQ, but man which of those two options will yield me more quality pics? Which is ultimately the goal here less we forget.
10-04-2008, 11:14 AM   #130
Not Registered
Guest




I like this game:

5D $1,750
Tokina 19-35 100ish
Sigma 24-70 f2.8 600USD
Sigma 70-200 f2.8 750USD
50mm 2.5 Macro $250
Canon EF 85 f1.8 $400
TC1.4x II $290 with full af and metering
TC2xII $290 with full af and metering

Total 4430 including 580 extra of TC. I would dare to say that it is an interesting competition. At any case, I think that we should compare apple with apples.
10-04-2008, 11:24 AM   #131
Veteran Member
deejjjaaaa's Avatar

Join Date: May 2007
Location: steel city / rust belt
Posts: 2,046
QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
You'd have to be an extremely discerning user to justify even paying $500 more for the 5D, much less $1500 more.
if the person has FF lenses - $500 more for the body is not a big deal...
10-04-2008, 12:31 PM   #132
Senior Member




Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 126
QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
In japanese:
「K20D」と「K200D」の後継機を2009年夏前に投入

Trnslate with whatever you want (Babelfish or google) ...

Not read yet... comments in a couple minutes..

EDIT: the automatic translation is awful but for the most important things (remember they can say what they want of course, they might not want to disclose too much).

* 645D development had indeed been*freezed*for internal reasons. The project isn't abandoned at all.

* No FF development for now although they keep an eye on that opportunity. 645D development is ofhighr priority than FF.

If someone reads japanese, please enlighten us, I can't do better than that.
Full frame, if it is announced, will seriously hurt the DA* lens sales. These lenses cost a lot of money and they are designed with a small image circle or they are optimized for best performance in the center of the frame even if they cover full frame. Pentax, even if it is working on a full frame body, would not want to hurt DA* lens sales by announcing full frame body development. The 645D announcement is a smoke screen, designed to deflect attention from the full frame. The medium format market is small and it is overcrowded with the recent announcement of the Leica S2 and the rumored entry of Nikon. Pentax would lose its shirt if it jumps into the 645 market.
10-04-2008, 12:51 PM   #133
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Colorado USA
Posts: 1,337
Apples to apples comparision is not possible

I'd have to compare crop canon 1.6x aps-c to crop pentax 1.5x aps-c and I decided if I wanted to stay with smaller format I'd continue on with pentax. Why? 1.5x is more appealing than 1.6x crop to me since I like superwide angle photography. I used 35mm film for years, and thesedays my eyes aren't what they used to be so I really needed a bigger viewfinder. I'm 110% satisfied with my manual focus capture using a big viewfinder again. As far as having a worthless 5D in 3 years, I doubt it. In 2 years It'll likely be worth $1,000 and the 5D Mark II will likely be down $500 to $700 off issue. Heck if I could get a like new used 5D today for $1,000 I buy another so I'd have a proper backup body for the pair the wife and I own. Instead I picked up three more Extreme III sandisk cards from B&H yesterday for $65 a piece and after $160 shopping rebate they'll cost me $12 per 8GB card: A Very Good Deal! Offers expires 10-11-08 just incase anybody here needs more sandisk cards for almost Free.

QuoteOriginally posted by Gruoso Quote
I like this game:

5D $1,750
Tokina 19-35 100ish
Sigma 24-70 f2.8 600USD
Sigma 70-200 f2.8 750USD
50mm 2.5 Macro $250
Canon EF 85 f1.8 $400
TC1.4x II $290 with full af and metering
TC2xII $290 with full af and metering

Total 4430 including 580 extra of TC. I would dare to say that it is an interesting competition. At any case, I think that we should compare apple with apples.
10-04-2008, 01:09 PM   #134
Not Registered
Guest




I wasnt trying to say that your comparison was worthless, I was just saying that it is difficult to compare equal qualities with systems that they are so different (particularly regarding the IS). I am myself thinking whether to pull the trigger on a "worthless" 5d if Canon fall rebates include it or wait one more year and get a "worthless" 5DII or a "despitable" Nikon D700. And as with you, one of the reasons is the manual focus (the main one is the dynamic range).

QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
I'd have to compare crop canon 1.6x aps-c to crop pentax 1.5x aps-c and I decided if I wanted to stay with smaller format I'd continue on with pentax. Why? 1.5x is more appealing than 1.6x crop to me since I like superwide angle photography. I used 35mm film for years, and thesedays my eyes aren't what they used to be so I really needed a bigger viewfinder. I'm 110% satisfied with my manual focus capture using a big viewfinder again. As far as having a worthless 5D in 3 years, I doubt it. In 2 years It'll likely be worth $1,000 and the 5D Mark II will likely be down $500 to $700 off issue. Heck if I could get a like new used 5D today for $1,000 I buy another so I'd have a proper backup body for the pair the wife and I own. Instead I picked up three more Extreme III sandisk cards from B&H yesterday for $65 a piece and after $160 shopping rebate they'll cost me $12 per 8GB card: A Very Good Deal! Offers expires 10-11-08 just incase anybody here needs more sandisk cards for almost Free.
10-04-2008, 01:31 PM   #135
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Colorado USA
Posts: 1,337
No Problems. Yeah, theres always more costs to consider, especially when moving to or adding another system. I really like the D700 and the Nikon 14-24mm 2.8 lens combo, as a couple friends own them. But when I bought my 5D there was only D3 at a few hundered less than $5,000 issue and the 14-24mm was $1799. Now D3 is $4299 and 14-24 2.8 is $1,550 and I can get a super dealer deal via a friend whose NPS connected on a D700 for $2,250 new with nikon warranty. Its a Tough call, as the 14-24mm 2.8 FX lens specs better than my 16-35mm II but I spent enough this year, far more than normal yearly expenditures and at somepoint I could freak out the wife. So I'm done stimulating the Japanese economy for next couple years.


QuoteOriginally posted by Gruoso Quote
I wasnt trying to say that your comparison was worthless, I was just saying that it is difficult to compare equal qualities with systems that they are so different (particularly regarding the IS). I am myself thinking whether to pull the trigger on a "worthless" 5d if Canon fall rebates include it or wait one more year and get a "worthless" 5DII or a "despitable" Nikon D700. And as with you, one of the reasons is the manual focus (the main one is the dynamic range).
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
645d, development, ff, pentax news, pentax rumors
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pentax USA prez interview henryp Ask B&H Photo! 2 10-14-2010 02:13 PM
Pentax interview with AP Urmas R. Pentax News and Rumors 34 03-11-2009 06:53 PM
Japanese interview with Pentax/Hoya MrApollinax Pentax News and Rumors 1 03-09-2009 06:47 AM
another pentax interview philmorley Pentax News and Rumors 23 10-28-2008 04:22 AM
Interview with Pentax Japan ckanthon Pentax DSLR Discussion 0 06-22-2008 12:45 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:12 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top