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09-27-2008, 11:42 AM   #16
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Pentax Has Already Beaten the Micro-Mount

QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
Samsung, Oly, and Panasonic are all going to go after the micro mount market. It may take another two years but we will all be lusting after one of these as a travel camera. Pentax doesn't have the resources to play in this niche.
I think Pentax has an inherent advantage because not only can you use your K-M lenses on an upscale camera, users of higher-end cameras can use the K-M as a 'walkaround' or 2nd body. The Samsung, Oly, and Panasonic cameras are a dead-end in terms of upgrades. Pentax provides an attractive upgrade path. If I was Pentax, I would be pushing a DA40 (or DA35)/K-M bundle HARD.

09-27-2008, 12:47 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
I do not agree at all. I can't see anyonewanting a K20D being satisfied by a K-M, a K200D (if only that one was a bit upgraded) maybe but not a K-M.
If the K-M had been available in Nov. of 06 when I bought my K10d I would have bought that instead. I shoot in manual 95-97% of the time and a K-m would have been perfect as my first DSLR. I think there are a lot of first time DSLR buyers that want a sound basic inexpensive body as their first unit.
09-27-2008, 12:51 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
that person has a good chance just to skip it and go for a used K10D/K200D/K20D instead of buying K2000D and DA-Ls...
That is a possibility depending on the price of the K-M/k2000.
09-27-2008, 12:55 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
you forgot to predict about exposure/metering domain or we already beat the crap out everybody else there
Are you saying Exposure/ metering is better with a Pentax body? That's not my experience. The Sony A700 and k10D seem to be equal in that area. I have no first hand knowledge of any other units.

09-27-2008, 01:04 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mr. The Guy Quote
I think Pentax has an inherent advantage because not only can you use your K-M lenses on an upscale camera, users of higher-end cameras can use the K-M as a 'walkaround' or 2nd body. The Samsung, Oly, and Panasonic cameras are a dead-end in terms of upgrades. Pentax provides an attractive upgrade path. If I was Pentax, I would be pushing a DA40 (or DA35)/K-M bundle HARD.
Nice thought but the K-M is still to big to be a great travel body. The Micro mounts are not meant to be an upgrade type unit. They are what they are, a small form P & S with interchangeable lenses and a big sensor. They are a separate set of tools from your APS-C set. I just don't see anybody getting a body small enough with the mounts that are now available. Even Oly had to go to a different mount for the micro mount to be small enough.

I wouldn't buy a K-M with a DA 40 for travel but I will buy a micro mount.
09-27-2008, 01:15 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mr. The Guy Quote
I think Pentax has an inherent advantage because not only can you use your K-M lenses on an upscale camera, users of higher-end cameras can use the K-M as a 'walkaround' or 2nd body. The Samsung, Oly, and Panasonic cameras are a dead-end in terms of upgrades. Pentax provides an attractive upgrade path. If I was Pentax, I would be pushing a DA40 (or DA35)/K-M bundle HARD.
upgrades for a 'walkaround' camera ? it should be small - so it is OK to have one small fix/zoom and then upgrades will be just new small bodies - not lenses - there micro 4/3 has an advantage over Pentax... and they (Oly and Panasonic) have/will have lenses for that...
09-27-2008, 01:20 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
Nice thought but the K-M is still to big to be a great travel body. The Micro mounts are not meant to be an upgrade type unit. They are what they are, a small form P & S with interchangeable lenses and a big sensor. They are a separate set of tools from your APS-C set. I just don't see anybody getting a body small enough with the mounts that are now available. Even Oly had to go to a different mount for the micro mount to be small enough.

I wouldn't buy a K-M with a DA 40 for travel but I will buy a micro mount.
I agree w/ that - I keep *istDL to go where I am not going to take my K20D for whatever reason - but if I 'd be offered to exchange it for micro 4/3 I 'd do that in a blink... just because of the size... and if I'd need a 2nd body - I 'd buy a used or new K10D/200D/20D... morever if it was (2nd body) intended for a work.
09-27-2008, 02:31 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonson PL Quote
I don’t see anything about Pentax in the German text that you mention.
Nor have I run across any worries in the Pentax community, except from outcoming trolls, or this ill-founded rumour that you have posted here.
So, should I be sorry for having posted this? No! And I reject the term "ill-founded rumour" from anybody who didn't speak to Pentax personal or Pentax affiliates at PK.

My six top impressions from my visit to PK have been (in no particular order):
  1. Pentax K-m is sexy.
  2. Panasonic G-1 has an awful viewfinder.
  3. Leica S2 is huge, as are S2 lenses.
  4. Olympus mFT study is very promising.
  5. Pentax still denies a role for FF.
  6. Samsung PK talk creates considerable worries in the Pentax community.
However, I have to accept that not much else is known about the last item, though. So, if nobody is in the possession of additional information, it may be best to close the thread, then...

09-28-2008, 03:40 PM   #24
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Pentax's denial of a FF offering may be a truthful statement of intentions to limit their aspirations to APS-C, or (like Nikon's similar statements that persisted until the introduction of the D3) may just be an effort to stop their current product sales from suffering more than they are already. Which one remains to be seen.

Let's hope it's the latter, because at this point Hoya must have a death wish for Pentax if they're going to limit its offerings to APS-C. That would alienate plenty of old-time Pentax customers (eroding a significant amount of their already small customer base) still wanting a FF camera from Pentax, and signal the beginning of a long, painful decline of what once was and could once again be a top-tier camera maker.

The "sandbox" is a hell of a lot more "crowded" in the APS-C segment than it is in the FF segment; insert the word "film" in place of "APS-C" in the phrase "Pentax will be sticking with APS-C" and you'll have an idea about exactly how successful that strategy is going to be, if it is their real intention.

I think of it this way; the K20D came to market only a short while ago and its price was $1300, now about $1000. To approach aready existing competition like the Nikon D300, currently priced at about $1575, they'll need a new shutter/mirror box capable of 2 times (body only) or nearly 3 times (with grip) the frame rate of the K20D, a completely revamped autofocus system that can match the speed and low light capabilities of Nikon's 51 point system, a beefier/more sturdy (read:magnesium alloy) body, and a shutter whose durability is 50% better. And they have to do ALL of this for about $275 per unit (compared with original K20D price) to compete on a price level. THEN, allow for the considerable handicap of the limited lens offerings for Pentax compared with that available for Nikon, and you need to discount the pricing further to make it attractive (if it's even possible to make it attractive for those with anything but a very limited system in mind), so just assume you'll have to GIVE all that get-even-with-existing-competition content away. All that for a camera that you can't really get anything more out of (IQ wise) than you can get out of a K20D. FF is here to stay, and holding onto APS-C as your only product offering at this stage is like holding on to an anchor and trying to swim, especially when you're already behind the competition.
09-28-2008, 09:40 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
My take on this is:
Samsung and Pentax worked together for more than 2 years now and besides the 14 Mp sensor I see nothing that will lead someone to really believe that. They didn't did a tiny amount of what Sony did in the past 2 years although IMO they are the same size as companies and arguably have the same electronics expertise (let alone the sensor business where Sony has far greather experience). Again, IMO Samsung engineers should of rebuild all the electronics inside Pentax cameras by now to state of the art status they had plenty of time to come out with a Prime 2 processor and a very performant AF system worked together with Pentax engineers and at least another 10-12 Mp CMOS sensor with LV for the lower class cameras to replace Sony's 10Mp CCD plus embed some of their ubiquous memory chips to give all Pentax cameras better buffer than any on the market.
I don’t think we’ll see any sensors going the “wrong” way. There will not be any new 4, 6, or 8 MP sensors made for DSLR APS-C crop. And likely no more new, revolutionary 10 MP either. 12 MP will be a minimum, no point wasting resources on yesterdays news.

QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
Also by now Samsung should of produced many times larger quantities of DSLR and market them in SK and the rest of Asia at the very least.
Samsung has had great focus on home market, when it comes to DSLR.


QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
Thus they would of bought large quantities of Pentax lenses to rebrand or license them and produce themselfs also helping Pentax to develop.
The Samsung lenses are produced by Schneider-Kreuznach


QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
Instead they shut down any models besides GX20 and show no worries about present time and "spring of 2010" when their "hybrid" will presumably come out.
Pentax will bring out K30 and K300, summer 2009. Lets see if Samsung will not be in on them. The Samsung models are fairly cheap to begin with, so maybe they didn’t feel they needed to be in on the K-m.
Besides, they haven’t mentioned much of their hybrid system, so could be they’re holding their cards close to the body, till time for announcement.


QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
It's quite obvious something is not working though and whatever the reasons for that (cultural and political unease, lack of economical interest, temptation to do other class of cameras than DSLRs in the face of a much harder competition that they initially foresaw) maybe it's better to reach a resolution to this situation.
I doubt Samsung is scared of competition. They went in heavy in the extremely competitive digicam market, and took a huge chunk. When they mean business, they go in all the way.

At the beginning, the plan wasn’t that the collaboration should bring out all identical products. So it is only fair that we see Pentax staying in DSLR, and mentioning MF. While Samsung is going hybrid, and also working on FF sensor.

A FF sensor could use some of their own lenses, like D-XENOGON 35mm f/2 and Close-up lens D-Xenon 100mm f/2.8. But also tempt current crop owners of Canon and Nikon, who might have a bunch of old Pentax film format lenses in the closet. A FF K-mount camera, would be compatible with a huge amount of legacy film lenses.
Their hybrid would likely as the Panasonic Lumix DMC-G1, be compatible with DSLR lenses via an adapter. This would make the current Samsung lenses useable with this system.
I see options, and wouldn’t mind a FF Samsung DSLR, together with a fast Pentax crop DSLR.

Should Pentax and Samsung choose different sensors in their future DSLR cameras, I don’t see this as a problem to me.
09-28-2008, 10:00 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
So, should I be sorry for having posted this? No! And I reject the term "ill-founded rumour" from anybody who didn't speak to Pentax personal or Pentax affiliates at PK.

My six top impressions from my visit to PK have been (in no particular order):
  1. Pentax K-m is sexy.
  2. Panasonic G-1 has an awful viewfinder.
  3. Leica S2 is huge, as are S2 lenses.
  4. Olympus mFT study is very promising.
  5. Pentax still denies a role for FF.
Thanks for your update, falkoneye. Iíve always with pleasure read your input. So was somewhat surprised by this one. But good to hear first hand experiences on PhotoKina, I wish I could have gone, but student economy didnít allow me this time. Maybe next time, we can have a meet-up; Iím sure it was very exciting.
Could you say more about the Panasonic DMC-G1 View Finder ? I thought the DPr staff, found it very good ?

Here is from the discussion of the interview at Japanese DC Watch :
Re: Pentax interview - with Director of Business Development Dep. Mr. Kitazawa: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review
09-28-2008, 10:11 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
Pentax's denial of a FF offering may be a truthful statement of intentions to limit their aspirations to APS-C, or (like Nikon's similar statements that persisted until the introduction of the D3) may just be an effort to stop their current product sales from suffering more than they are already. Which one remains to be seen.
In the Pro medium format segment, Pentax was dominating. A lot of former users have been looking forward to seeing Pentax back here.

Better chance of seeing a Samsung FF

QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
Let's hope it's the latter, because at this point Hoya must have a death wish for Pentax if they're going to limit its offerings to APS-C. That would alienate plenty of old-time Pentax customers (eroding a significant amount of their already small customer base) still wanting a FF camera from Pentax, and signal the beginning of a long, painful decline of what once was and could once again be a top-tier camera maker.
FF is niche; the big turn-over is made from APS-C, or other digital crop format.



QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
The "sandbox" is a hell of a lot more "crowded" in the APS-C segment than it is in the FF segment; insert the word "film" in place of "APS-C" in the phrase "Pentax will be sticking with APS-C" and you'll have an idea about exactly how successful that strategy is going to be, if it is their real intention.
If Sony get a flagship out there, which doesn't sell. They could have to pull the plug on any thoughts of competing with C&N. Think Titanic


QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
I think of it this way; the K20D came to market only a short while ago and its price was $1300, now about $1000. To approach aready existing competition like the Nikon D300, currently priced at about $1575, they'll need a new shutter/mirror box capable of 2 times (body only) or nearly 3 times (with grip) the frame rate of the K20D, a completely revamped autofocus system that can match the speed and low light capabilities of Nikon's 51 point system, a beefier/more sturdy (read:magnesium alloy) body, and a shutter whose durability is 50% better. And they have to do ALL of this for about $275 per unit (compared with original K20D price) to compete on a price level. THEN, allow for the considerable handicap of the limited lens offerings for Pentax compared with that available for Nikon, and you need to discount the pricing further to make it attractive (if it's even possible to make it attractive for those with anything but a very limited system in mind), so just assume you'll have to GIVE all that get-even-with-existing-competition content away. All that for a camera that you can't really get anything more out of (IQ wise) than you can get out of a K20D. FF is here to stay, and holding onto APS-C as your only product offering at this stage is like holding on to an anchor and trying to swim, especially when you're already behind the competition.
The K20 is not a competitor for the D300. The D300 is a speed cam. The emphasis of K20 is on IQ.
The K20 surprised in both Noise control, and general IQ, for a high MP camera. We could likely be surprised by Pentax again. Rumours from the German forum talk of 1/8000 sec. in the K30, higher fps, etc.
09-28-2008, 11:24 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonson PL Quote
The Samsung lenses are produced by Schneider-Kreuznach
Well, no. Just as bodies, everything is produced by Pentax nad btw it means that even if Samsung production isn't anything huge, its lowers Pentax'w own production at the same time, which is a shame.
09-29-2008, 01:40 AM   #29
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Decided to buy K-m + DA40 for travel after New Year.
09-29-2008, 02:58 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonson PL Quote
I donít think weíll see any sensors going the ďwrongĒ way. There will not be any new 4, 6, or 8 MP sensors made for DSLR APS-C crop. And likely no more new, revolutionary 10 MP either. 12 MP will be a minimum, no point wasting resources on yesterdays news.

What I meant was a 10-12 Mp sensor made by Samsung as a replacement for the current 10Mp Sony sensor that Pentax uses even in it's latest K-m. A CMOS sensor with LV for the "lower class" of cameras not a succesor for the 14,6Mp and possibly made last year or indroduced along with the 14.6 Mp one not now or in the future.

Samsung has had great focus on home market, when it comes to DSLR.

If you say so ... but AFAIK they don't make their replica of K200D which leaves them with only one modern GX20 and possibly the continuation of the GX10 production. I have no statistics but I doubt they're so big in SK with under 1% market share worldwide.

The Samsung lenses are produced by Schneider-Kreuznach

Yes, the labels with "Schneider-Kreutznach" may be made by them or may be "Printed in China". The rest is Pentax design.

Pentax will bring out K30 and K300, summer 2009. Lets see if Samsung will not be in on them. The Samsung models are fairly cheap to begin with, so maybe they didnít feel they needed to be in on the K-m.
Besides, they havenít mentioned much of their hybrid system, so could be theyíre holding their cards close to the body, till time for announcement.

In at least 9 months a lot could happen and my opinion was that's not good to neglect the market for such a long period.

I doubt Samsung is scared of competition. They went in heavy in the extremely competitive digicam market, and took a huge chunk. When they mean business, they go in all the way.

I never said they lack funds, knowlwdge or competitive spirit. But even in your phrase above the operative word is WHEN. I feel they don't meant business in this sector for the past 2 years or else we should of seen comparable results to Sony's IMO

At the beginning, the plan wasnít that the collaboration should bring out all identical products. So it is only fair that we see Pentax staying in DSLR, and mentioning MF. While Samsung is going hybrid, and also working on FF sensor.

I don't know the original plan so I could only speculate about this. I only saw Pentax doing its part of the expertise resulting in new cameras and A LOT of new lenses since 2006 and no improvements in electronics most likely Samsung's part.

A FF sensor could use some of their own lenses, like D-XENOGON 35mm f/2 and Close-up lens D-Xenon 100mm f/2.8. But also tempt current crop owners of Canon and Nikon, who might have a bunch of old Pentax film format lenses in the closet. A FF K-mount camera, would be compatible with a huge amount of legacy film lenses.
Their hybrid would likely as the Panasonic Lumix DMC-G1, be compatible with DSLR lenses via an adapter. This would make the current Samsung lenses useable with this system.
I see options, and wouldnít mind a FF Samsung DSLR, together with a fast Pentax crop DSLR.

I generaly agree with the above although a lot is just speculations.

Should Pentax and Samsung choose different sensors in their future DSLR cameras, I donít see this as a problem to me.

Neither do I but you seem to trounced my original messege only to reach a similar conclussion .
Regards,
Radu
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