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09-29-2008, 03:32 AM   #31
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Thanks for your answer. Good points, I see where you’re coming from.

Often really good replies, I also read your posts at DPr.

QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
If you say so ... but AFAIK they don't make their replica of K200D which leaves them with only one modern GX20 and possibly the continuation of the GX10 production. I have no statistics but I doubt they're so big in SK with under 1% market share worldwide.
Also keep in mind that the Japanese figures only encompass Japanese brands. So Samsung is listed as 0 % there. Though I'm sure some Japanese use the Samsung equivalent.

QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
I never said they lack funds, knowlwdge or competitive spirit. But even in your phrase above the operative word is WHEN. I feel they don't meant business in this sector for the past 2 years or else we should of seen comparable results to Sony's IMO
Sony already had all the bases covered. Samsung needed to built more framework, and extend know-how.
To start with in digital photography, Samsung really seemed to have begun conquring the digicam market :
Re: Samsung - new camera line and lens mount - whither Hoya/Pentax?: News Discussion Forum: Digital Photography Review

QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
Neither do I but you seem to trounced my original messege only to reach a similar conclussion.
I’m not sure that I understand what “trounced“. I didn’t mean to selectively comment on certain issues. But as you say, much of what we discuss are speculations.
We know the Pentax company better. Samsung is harder to predict. They've said Hybrid and FF, nobody really knows the timeframe.

09-29-2008, 04:27 AM   #32
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Hi, Sune!

Thank you for your kind words I really appreciate your input too and many other's here in our debates. In the end it is a place of open talk and free learning from each other and also a nice way to simulate different scenarios.
In the end I still feel that Samsung did too little for them in the first place and for K mount in general. Of course you may be right and the close future may show a vastly different picture but anyway compared to Sony's efforts they were just not up there. In fact Sony bought a lot of knowledge in camera making with Konica-Minolta and they put the electronics expertise: new AF system, BIONZ processor, high res LCDs in A700 and A900. They IMO moved a lot more forward in those 2 years than the Pentax-Samsung partnership in every way (new cameras, improved technologies, share market). And I think Samsung could of done much of the same and Pentax could of profited a lot (and we, pentaxians also, obviously).

Best regards,
Radu
09-29-2008, 04:28 AM   #33
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Pentax and Samsung Partnership Not Perfect - PhotographyBLOG

QuoteQuote:
Pentax’s Sales & Marketing Director of Imaging Systems, Mr. Toshiaki Iue, who recently joined the company in July, has stated that “Pentax’s relationship with Samsung is not perfect – there are some issues”, but went on to say that the two companies would continue their technology partnership for at least the near future.
09-29-2008, 05:34 AM   #34
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As I said in an earlier post Pentax and Samsung are no longer dating, just good friends. Pentax purchased over 340,000 sensors last year and are projecting sales of around 480,000 this year. Not earth shaking numbers but large enough to make all sensor manufacturers interested in having a piece of it. It puts Pentax in a nice position of being able to offer any sensor manufacturer over $2M dollars worth of sales. We might even see a sensor from a different source. As long as Pentax does the appropriate testing it doesn't matter who makes them.

Regards,
Ken

09-29-2008, 05:48 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
They IMO moved a lot more forward in those 2 years than the Pentax-Samsung partnership in every way (new cameras, improved technologies, share market). And I think Samsung could of done much of the same and Pentax could of profited a lot (and we, pentaxians also, obviously).

The difference between Samsung and Sony IMO being that Sony got Minolta knowledge/technos/engineers right on board. Of course Samsung has no excuse not having do more on the electronic part.
As their own cameras, they did not know about anything in producing a DSLR, even current ones are produced by Pentax for Samsung. They have to learn, and it might a whole lot more difficult than they thought.
Its not like buying a company already in the business.

Another reasons why Samsung/Pentax collaboration might soften somewhat: Hoya may not see the Pentax/samsung deal as a good thing and might ditch Samsung altogether, except for producing sensors, but not being part of larger deal.
09-29-2008, 07:21 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
As I said in an earlier post Pentax and Samsung are no longer dating, just good friends. Pentax purchased over 340,000 sensors last year and are projecting sales of around 480,000 this year. Not earth shaking numbers but large enough to make all sensor manufacturers interested in having a piece of it. It puts Pentax in a nice position of being able to offer any sensor manufacturer over $2M dollars worth of sales. We might even see a sensor from a different source. As long as Pentax does the appropriate testing it doesn't matter who makes them.

Regards,
Ken
$2M for 480000 sensors ? shouldn't the number be rather $20M or more...
09-29-2008, 07:53 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
It puts Pentax in a nice position of being able to offer any sensor manufacturer over $2M dollars worth of sales. We might even see a sensor from a different source. As long as Pentax does the appropriate testing it doesn't matter who makes them.

You may wanna make that roughly 20M USD, Ken for half a milion sensors a year @ about 40 dollars a piece. Secondly if Nikon will ditch Sony in the medium future regardless of reason (although the main is for sure the conflict of interests Sony is being supplier of sensors and competitor on dslr market) maybe Sony will think twice about refusing an over .5M sensor deal a year for Pentax in much better conditions than before. Anyway I bet they already sell to Pentax about 70-80% of the sensors even as of today with K20D being the rest.

Regards,
Ken
QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
The difference between Samsung and Sony IMO being that Sony got Minolta knowledge/technos/engineers right on board. Of course Samsung has no excuse not having do more on the electronic part.
As their own cameras, they did not know about anything in producing a DSLR, even current ones are produced by Pentax for Samsung. They have to learn, and it might a whole lot more difficult than they thought.
Its not like buying a company already in the business.

Yes, yes and yes but the main problem is that they seem in no hurry at all. And the ambiguous signals they give regarding the new micro-whatever are not doing anything good too. Even more, it may be extremely possible that most of the parts they develop for the micro-thing is not usable or usefull in a DSLR even further dilluting they contribution to this partnership. Remember that a mirrorless camera will have a different AF system and after more than 2 years we don't even have a new one for our cameras. At least the sensor even if it'll stay at 14,6Mp will be most likely revamped to allow movie and better LV for sure.

Another reasons why Samsung/Pentax collaboration might soften somewhat: Hoya may not see the Pentax/samsung deal as a good thing and might ditch Samsung altogether, except for producing sensors, but not being part of larger deal.

Again, I agree and in fact I wrote in my first messege on this thread: "I only wonder if Hoya isn't really capable to do it all by itself that meaning design better systems for their cameras and build them in colaboration with japanese semiconductor factories of whom they should be suppliers for various products."

Pentax was Pentax but Hoya is in a totally better position both in financial terms and connections IMO.

Regards,
Radu
09-29-2008, 09:47 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonson PL Quote
Could you say more about the Panasonic DMC-G1 View Finder ? I thought the DPr staff, found it very good ?
Well, I think it all depends on expectations. I haven't tried an EVF beforehand. Whose who did tend to like to EVF in the G1. This probably means that it is on the better side of EVFs.

Whose who didn't and tried the G1 EVF as their first EVF and are used to SLR viewfinders didn't like it. I was part of a larger group of experienced Pentax users and we all agreed that we don't want to use this kind of VF. A big step back.

So, in summary this may mean that EVF are making progress but at the same time are still years away from aything SLR users would accept.

To be more precise, what I didn't like was:
Pixelated image, lagging in time a lot, changing brightness (as exposure adapted), bad contrast, wrong colors, draws attention away from image composition (flashing action with green rectangles going on). The view through the EVF was ugly enough to spoil the joy in taking photographs (at least for me)!
Thanks for the link.

09-29-2008, 10:25 AM   #39
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Ooops!

QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
$2M for 480000 sensors ? shouldn't the number be rather $20M or more...
You are right, I dropped a zero. Even better for Pentax to be able to pick and choose who they buy from.
09-29-2008, 10:32 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mr. The Guy Quote
Samsung showed no new DSLRs and is promoting a new mount. The recent Pentax Business Product Development Manager interview stated that they would buy the best sensors available not necessarily by Samsung. Samsung could have bought Pentax, but Hoya did instead. So, bye, bye Samsung. A Korean/Japanese partnership was never going to work. Samsung intimated that they want to make a FF sensor.
There is no sign about the partnership being ended.
1. We don't know yet how the mount of the micro APS-C, that Samsung is said to be working on, will turn out.
2. Samsung has said that they will continue with it's GX lineup.
3. Speculation in South Korean magazines said before Photokina that Samsung's new DSLR's were delayed - including their 24x36 camera -, obviously this was true.
4. Samsung never had the intention of buying Pentax. So Hoya did not buy Pentax instead of Samsung, Hoya bought Pentax because they were the only one interrested in buying Pentax. I know that there has been a dream on this forum and other forums for many years now that Samsung will buy Pentax, but fact is that Samsung is not interrested, never has been interrested and never will be interrested in buying Pentax. And Hoya isn't interresting in selling. This "Samsung will buy Pentax"-thing has been unfounded speculation and nonsense from the beginning.
5. There is no signs that the partnership is not working. Sure they have had some problems, but all relationships has problems. A few problems does not mean the relationship will end.

"Pentax’s Sales & Marketing Director of Imaging Systems, Mr. Toshiaki Iue, who recently joined the company in July, has stated that “Pentax’s relationship with Samsung is not perfect – there are some issues”, but went on to say that the two companies would continue their technology partnership for at least the near future. "
Pentax and Samsung Partnership Not Perfect - PhotographyBLOG

Do note that the goal of magazines and journalists is to exagerrate the negative parts, to focus on the bad things. Because this sells magazines, this grabs attention. One does not want to read good news, only bad news. It is interresting that they start out with the "bad news" and makes a headline out of it, when the "bad news" only takes up ONE SENTENCE of the article... This is just how journalists works. No matter of small those "bad news" are, they are always more important than good news, no matter how big the good news are. So, by reading the headline one gets the false assumption that the article is about Pentax - Samsung relationship, but it isn't. The relationship only takes up one sentence in the whole article.

The interresting thing now is that internet community works just like journalists and magazines, and I often wonder if people here are paid journalists because they like to spread rumours and false assumptions about negative things instead of focusing on the good things. Just like journalists for sensation magazines or scandal press.

Samsung only has one sensor, the 14Mp APS-C.
This sensor is a good one, but it won't fit all purposes. For example, it won't do for the digital medium format. Because Samsung wish to end the partnership with Pentax? Because Samsung and Pentax are not happy with each other? No, the answer is simply this - beacuse Samsung does not have a medium format sensor!
So that is why Pentax has to go to Kodak. They are forced to it.
And you takes this as a sign of the partnership Samsung - Pentax will end. Good grief!
Let me tell some shocking news that might surprise you - there is more to cameras than just the sensor. Pentax and Samsung has a partnership in developing DSLR technologies. This can mean anything - sensor, autofocus systems, metering systems, image proessing circuits, memory circuits, D/A converters, whatever.
It does not only mean sensors.
And even if Pentax does not use the Samsung APS-C 14Mp sensor for it's medium format camera (why should they?) the medium format camera can still have some co-developed Samsung-Pentax technologies within the body.

Oh, and the 14Mp Samsung did not made it into the K-m because it was too expensive. It is sad, because the sensor is great, but for the K-m it is important that it sells for as little as possible so the Samsung 14Mp did not cut it.
This has nothing to do with Pentax being unhappy with Samsung, or Samsung being unhappy with Pentax.
You are reading things in-between the lines that aren't there and you have pretty wild speculation.
09-29-2008, 12:12 PM   #41
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way to much angst on this forum

QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
Pentax was Pentax but Hoya is in a totally better position both in financial terms and connections IMO
Radu
Pentax is what it is, a small second tier player that is working toward being a niche marketer that will maintain a 4-5% market share. They will always be a day late on offering the latest greatest features. We will get one or two new units a year that will be short of many things compared to the big three and it will be slightly over priced.
As long as they don't get stupid and drop the backward compatibility we will have a system with a great collection of primes to pick from and a fairly complete set of APS-C designed lenses that are priced fairly. If you need/want something like faster AF before they are ready to produce it you may have to go to a dual system. If you want/can afford FF you might as well look elsewhere. It took me 1 1/2 years to come to terms with this, but Pentax is what it is.

regards,
Ken
09-29-2008, 01:02 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Well, I think it all depends on expectations. I haven't tried an EVF beforehand. Whose who did tend to like to EVF in the G1. This probably means that it is on the better side of EVFs.

Whose who didn't and tried the G1 EVF as their first EVF and are used to SLR viewfinders didn't like it. I was part of a larger group of experienced Pentax users and we all agreed that we don't want to use this kind of VF. A big step back.

So, in summary this may mean that EVF are making progress but at the same time are still years away from aything SLR users would accept.

To be more precise, what I didn't like was:
Pixelated image, lagging in time a lot, changing brightness (as exposure adapted), bad contrast, wrong colors, draws attention away from image composition (flashing action with green rectangles going on). The view through the EVF was ugly enough to spoil the joy in taking photographs (at least for me)!
Ok, thanks for the feedback. I haven't experience with EVF's, but I follow your points on it.
09-29-2008, 03:04 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
Pentax is what it is, a small second tier player that is working toward being a niche marketer that will maintain a 4-5% market share. They will always be a day late on offering the latest greatest features. We will get one or two new units a year that will be short of many things compared to the big three and it will be slightly over priced.As long as they don't get stupid and drop the backward compatibility we will have a system with a great collection of primes to pick from and a fairly complete set of APS-C designed lenses that are priced fairly. If you need/want something like faster AF before they are ready to produce it you may have to go to a dual system. If you want/can afford FF you might as well look elsewhere. It took me 1 1/2 years to come to terms with this, but Pentax is what it is.

regards,
Ken
Well, Ken

I don't know what prompted your reply based on a lone and pretty benign phrase of mine. I respect your personal opinion but I want to say the following:

Year 2008:
-------------

3 new cameras: K20D, K200D, K-m. You may say that any of these cameras have older parts and I will say that Canon 1000D is a compilation of older parts, 5D mk2 has the 1DS M3 sensor, D90 has the D300 sensor and D80 AF system, D700 has a lot of D3 guts inside and I may go on;
Both entry level models are big improvements vs the older entry level K100D in much more ways than 1000D is vs 400D for example.
---------------------
Total: 3 new cameras

New lenses:
- 18-55 II, DA 55-300
- DA 17-70, DA 35 Macro
- DA* 200, DA* 300;
- DA* 60-250 possibly DA* 55
-------------------------------------
Total: 8 new lenses + 2 older designs "repackaged" - DA L lenses

Now about: "We will get one or two new units a year that will be short of many things compared to the big three and it will be slightly over priced.". IMO there is no feature universaly atractive for the users and for me 2 most important features are not present in any under 3000Euro competition's cameras (APS-C or larger) and are present in a 500Euro K200D: ws and SR in body. So those kind of definitive statements may not be the most accurate and if some of us are anxious to see Pentax improve you may be anxious to see them fail to the big three (btw, they are 3 now?). Also more subjective features in which Pentax excels such as superb ergonomics, build quality, very good prime lenses for not that much money, very modern lens range in general, medium priced ws lenses, ws grip for K10/20 and power grip for K200D, very high resolution in K20D, color tunable LCD even in K-m, compatibility with a lot of lenses, etc.

I rest my case,
Radu
09-29-2008, 04:21 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
Well, Ken


Now about: "We will get one or two new units a year that will be short of many things compared to the big three and it will be slightly over priced.". IMO there is no feature universaly atractive for the users and for me 2 most important features are not present in any under 3000Euro competition's cameras (APS-C or larger) and are present in a 500Euro K200D: ws and SR in body. So those kind of definitive statements may not be the most accurate and if some of us are anxious to see Pentax improve you may be anxious to see them fail to the big three (btw, they are 3 now?). Also more subjective features in which Pentax excels such as superb ergonomics, build quality, very good prime lenses for not that much money, very modern lens range in general, medium priced ws lenses, ws grip for K10/20 and power grip for K200D, very high resolution in K20D, color tunable LCD even in K-m, compatibility with a lot of lenses, etc.

I rest my case,
Radu
Sorry that you misunderstood my post. I used your quote as a general statement about the overall tone of so many posts on this forum. Let me be perfectly clear about wanting to see Pentax succeed. You totally missed my point which is Pentax's present plan is not to compete with the big 3(yes, there are now 3. Look at the latest sales figures of Sony, particularly in Europe. Also look at the breadth of the bodies that are offered).

Pentax has finally settled on a sensible game plan that will make them a very good second tier manufacturer of a quality line of APS-C cameras that appeal to serious minded hobbyist. I also said we will have to be patient when talking about improvements in the body because Pentax will be a little slower in bringing new features to market than the big 3, or for that matter improving old outdated features.

I was trying to suggest there is no reason to defend the Pentax system. It stands on it's own, warts and all. Just be prepared to be patient with the time frame of new developments.

regards,
Ken
09-29-2008, 04:41 PM   #45
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Ken, I think it's highly likely that the large amount of Sony sales can be put down as a bump that might or might not continue. They have a lot more brand recognition than C or N because of all the other products they make.
My experience of Sony after sales service is not good and I am not alone. Admittedly my experience was not with a DSLR but it was still Sony. I think it remains to be seen whether they are really going to stand by their products or just make you buy the latest model when yours goes wrong.
I have looked at the Sony DSLR's but I didn't like the feel of them for one thing, that combined with my previous experience with Sony led me to decide not to buy.
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