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09-29-2008, 05:09 PM   #46
RaduA
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Ken,

I wasn't saying that you believed that but I must admit I didn't pick up the irony either . Anyway what are you refferind as "Sony's European sales" in fact is a lame attempt from their marketing force to twist a bit the truth. They reported about 17% market share from 14 unnamed EU countries (out of 27 in total) based on individual unit market share. So, I guess all the other 24 may not equal the sales from Germany, France and UK and 17% combined of very small countries (there are a lot of under 10 milion people countries in the EU) may very well be 5% of EU market. If they were so big in the EU believe me you won't hear it from an internal marketing slide conveniently "leaked" to the press.

Pentax will do good in the EU I think with the new K-m and I base my prediction on the fact that they (will) have the cheapest bundle of 2 kit lenses available by far here. The others (C, N, S) either need in lens stabilisation (expensive), or suply older ones without it (cheaper but less attractive) or lack a tele kit lens altogether (Sony).

Regards,
Radu

09-29-2008, 05:44 PM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
Pentax is what it is, a small second tier player that is working toward being a niche marketer that will maintain a 4-5% market share. They will always be a day late on offering the latest greatest features. We will get one or two new units a year that will be short of many things compared to the big three and it will be slightly over priced.
As long as they don't get stupid and drop the backward compatibility we will have a system with a great collection of primes to pick from and a fairly complete set of APS-C designed lenses that are priced fairly. If you need/want something like faster AF before they are ready to produce it you may have to go to a dual system. If you want/can afford FF you might as well look elsewhere. It took me 1 1/2 years to come to terms with this, but Pentax is what it is.

regards,
Ken
Sad you feel that way about Pentax, but on the contrary, Pentax is only now starting to get in gear with things. The interview linked earlier in this thread (I started a post about it before I saw it linked here) says as much.

It still remains to be seen if they will work improvements on AF, but they're already making minor improvements to the existing SAFOX VIII. I've had a K10D before and am using a K200D now (mainly for the AA batteries), and while not a dramatic improvement, AF speed in the K200D is somewhat better in my experience.

The same has been said about the K-m's AF by those who have had the chance to try it out.

That said, it means that Pentax does have the knowledge to be able to create faster AF systems, and I expect them to work that in with future cameras.

Of course, if you're on the mindset of "now, now, now", perhaps you derive income from action photography, then, yeah, you would need to get another system.

And not everything is a day late when it comes to Pentax. They have been ahead of the game when they released the K20D, first APS-C camera with ~15MP, and K200D with its weather-sealing (first non-prosumer DSLR with weather sealing).

Catering to the masses with a K-m certainly doesn't point to a niche player. Just because Pentax chose to go 645D instead of FF, doesn't automatically make them a niche player. If Nikon chose to go MF later on, should we label them as niche, too? Or does Pentax suddenly become a legitimate player just because one of the big two chose to do the same?

QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
Ken,

I wasn't saying that you believed that but I must admit I didn't pick up the irony either . Anyway what are you refferind as "Sony's European sales" in fact is a lame attempt from their marketing force to twist a bit the truth. They reported about 17% market share from 14 unnamed EU countries (out of 27 in total) based on individual unit market share. So, I guess all the other 24 may not equal the sales from Germany, France and UK and 17% combined of very small countries (there are a lot of under 10 milion people countries in the EU) may very well be 5% of EU market. If they were so big in the EU believe me you won't hear it from an internal marketing slide conveniently "leaked" to the press.

Pentax will do good in the EU I think with the new K-m and I base my prediction on the fact that they (will) have the cheapest bundle of 2 kit lenses available by far here. The others (C, N, S) either need in lens stabilisation (expensive), or suply older ones without it (cheaper but less attractive) or lack a tele kit lens altogether (Sony).

Regards,
Radu
Sony actually does have a 75-300 (not sure of the actual zoom range) that they bundle with some of their kits.
09-29-2008, 05:59 PM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by vinzer Quote
Catering to the masses with a K-m certainly doesn't point to a niche player. Just because Pentax chose to go 645D instead of FF, doesn't automatically make them a niche player. If Nikon chose to go MF later on, should we label them as niche, too? Or does Pentax suddenly become a legitimate player just because one of the big two chose to do the same?
Pentax have not decided on the 645D or FF according to the interview.
I have no doubt that Pentax can make competitive cameras but Pentax problem is marketing and distribution; Nikon have "always" been able to sell tons of substandard cameras (the old Nikon F50 is a horrible example) because they are the cameramans camera and present and pushed in every shop.
Pentax have completely lost their brand recognition from the Spotmatic, LX and medium format heydays. Their philosophy that any high-end camera must be profitable is not exactly a catalyst for increased brand recognition.
When it come sto niche players, historically all niche player operating in the mass market for SLR, went out of business. That was in the film days. For digital the effect is magnified.
09-29-2008, 06:27 PM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by vinzer Quote
Sad you feel that way about Pentax, but on the contrary, Pentax is only now starting to get in gear with things. The interview linked earlier in this thread (I started a post about it before I saw it linked here) says as much.

Of course, if you're on the mindset of "now, now, now", perhaps you derive income from action photography, then, yeah, you would need to get another system.

And not everything is a day late when it comes to Pentax. They have been ahead of the game when they released the K20D, first APS-C camera with ~15MP, and K200D with its weather-sealing (first non-prosumer DSLR with weather sealing).

Catering to the masses with a K-m certainly doesn't point to a niche player. Just because Pentax chose to go 645D instead of FF, doesn't automatically make them a niche player. If Nikon chose to go MF later on, should we label them as niche, too? Or does Pentax suddenly become a legitimate player just because one of the big two chose to do the same?



Sony actually does have a 75-300 (not sure of the actual zoom range) that they bundle with some of their kits.
Wow, I am amazed at how my post was so badly interpreted. Being a niche player is many times a very good thing. Most niche products provide a better quality at a reasonable price. The K-M, IMO, doesn't cater to the masses but appeals to the beginning enthusiast on a budget.

The items Pentax has been first with are not mass market type items. They are the sort of things an enthusiast wants, ergo a niche product. Everything Pentax is doing implies their direction is that of a niche producer. Even the volume they are projecting indicates that. As I said before this is not a bad thing. The progress may be a little slow for this type of company but we can all live with what we have until they get around to improving a certain feature.

In my case several months ago I decided I wanted to try action shooting. My choice was to spend a lot of time learning how to get the most out of my K10D, wait for Pentax to address this issue, or buy something that made life a little easier. Fortunately I found a great deal on a Sony A700 and it has been great for action shooting. As soon as Pentax comes out with something that can match it's AF speed I'll sell the A 700 an get back to Pentax only. This may take one or two more models before they improve it that much but in the mean time I'll use my K10D and primes along with the Sony A700 and zooms.

The point is Pentax is what it is and don't expect it to become something different overnight. Either live with what it is or get something that satisfies your needs.

Regards,
Ken

09-29-2008, 06:29 PM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
When it come sto niche players, historically all niche player operating in the mass market for SLR, went out of business. That was in the film days. For digital the effect is magnified.
Oh hogwash! As the market expands as the DSLR market is there is more room for niche players.
09-29-2008, 07:02 PM   #51
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Pentax’s relationship with Samsung is not perfect – there are some issues”, but went on to say that the two companies would continue their technology partnership for at least the near future.
09-30-2008, 02:46 AM   #52
RaduA
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QuoteOriginally posted by vinzer Quote
Sony actually does have a 75-300 (not sure of the actual zoom range) that they bundle with some of their kits.
Hi, Vinzer!

Yes I know about that lens and they also have a 55-200 one I just wasn't clear enough in what I said. Those lenses exists but they are (at least were I live) the most expensive members of the "tele kit" category so they make the dual kit more expensive than other bundles (and definately more expensive than K-m+18-55+50-200).

Regards,
Radu

P.S. Don't be so harsh on Ken he was playing "devil's advocate" I misunderstood him as well in the first place!
09-30-2008, 03:49 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
Decided to buy K-m + DA40 for travel after New Year.
I have seen and handled the K-m with the 40. Very nice and compact kit. Surprisingly hefty for its size. Still trying to decide whether to get the 40, 35 or 21.

In my opinion, this trumps the Panasonic G1 and the even the Canon G9 types. The other setup that I am interested in is the Oly micro 4/3 mockup but that is probably a year away.

09-30-2008, 03:53 AM   #54
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21mm is much better focal length, not better but more usable I think. 35mm would be best but then is not that small..
09-30-2008, 09:17 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by jake.astig Quote
I have seen and handled the K-m with the 40. Very nice and compact kit. Surprisingly hefty for its size. Still trying to decide whether to get the 40, 35 or 21.

In my opinion, this trumps the Panasonic G1 and the even the Canon G9 types. The other setup that I am interested in is the Oly micro 4/3 mockup but that is probably a year away.
Well, I would hope that the Oly m4/3 concept camera would eventually have an EVF. I'm not at all used to holding the camera far from my eye nowadays, and I'm not enamored with the lack of in-body IS in Panasonic's camera.

Also, since Oly's concept camera is still a year away, I can still catch a glimpse of what Pentax intends to do should the m4/3 concept succeed.
09-30-2008, 04:03 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by vinzer Quote
I would hope that the Oly m4/3 concept camera would eventually have an EVF.
At least the PK model wasn't equipped with EVF. Attached is my own image from PK.

Last edited by falconeye; 06-15-2011 at 05:28 AM.
10-01-2008, 12:07 AM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
At least the PK model wasn't equipped with EVF. Attached is my own image from PK.
Yup. Still hoping for an add-on VF like Ricoh does for their GX cameras.
10-01-2008, 01:18 AM   #58
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We all forget something, the EVF is a possibility of course but:

1/ It could be as an option only as on Ricoh GX cameras
2/ We still could use a viewfinder like on rangefinder cameras, I hear no Leica M guy cmomplaining about their viewfinders...
10-01-2008, 03:32 AM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
2/ We still could use a viewfinder like on rangefinder cameras, I hear no Leica M guy cmomplaining about their viewfinders...
Yepp.
A look thru a Leica M8.2 was yet another first for me at PK. And what shall I say... Despite the cult reputation of Leica, a nice viewfinder and the fact that it is build like a tank I would have much appreciated a more modern feel to it ...

So after all, a state-of-the-art rangefinder, light-weight by usage of modern materials, silent, enhanced electronics (incl. AF) and with optional LiveView (for tele and macro tasks) is certainly something I would have a look at (at the right price point...).

However, a rangefinder VF would probably be hard to add to mFT because you would have to know the absolute distance to the subject rather than a relative refocus distance. I didn't hear anything that mFT spec included a new focus signalling protocol.
10-01-2008, 03:05 PM   #60
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Photokina Interview Series: Samsung: Digital Photography Review Seems that Samsung will collaborate in future too with Pentax, regarding dSLRs.
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